DharmaWheel, pressure between the eyebrows, bad advice

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was browsing DharmaWheel the other day and I came across this post called: "giant pressure in between my eyebrows".

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15334

 

 

The poster, "threeyears" posted this:

For the last three years I have felt a pressure in between my eyebrows. It doesn't go away when I get off the cushion, it is always there. When I watch it, it moves around. It goes to the back of my head, the sides, into my eyesockets making them twitch, into my nose, up to the top of my head, but it always comes back to the center in between my eyebrows. And it grows incredibly big whenever I watch my thoughts. I stopped meditating for a while because it was becoming so big that I thought my head was going to explode. Its not painful, its just confusing. So for the sake of avoiding brain damage, I put my faith in the people of dharmawheel. Can you please help me?

 

So big deal.. eh?

 

Well, the first response was from Malcolm, the very same Malcolm whom has been idolized and mega quoted by Simple Jack and others as being the 'end-all, be-all' in Tibetan teachings.. I was totally amazed. Here was Malcolm, a Tibetan doctor, supposed great scholar and authority, telling "threeyears" this:

 

Sounds like a disorder of wind -- go see an ayurvedic or tibetan doctor.

 

Then, needless to say, the rest of the posters follow suit and spew out a series of responses all implying that something is sick or broken and needs fixing..

 

Wow! I can't believe that the forumites on DharmaWheel have no idea about ajna, the third eye, the etheric body, the advanced thogal practices and that particular experience of feeling 'pressure between the brows'.

 

In essence, the ignorant posters on DharmaWheel have probably succeeded in convincing everyone that pressure between the eyebrows is detrimental and something to be avoided. Well, it is not. Far from it.

 

Pressure between the eyes is a sign that the third eye is opening. I myself am very familiar with the effect which resembles a magnetic black hole that expands and contracts, moves about the head, especially down the nose and is a very important experience to master and exploit.

 

First off, Samuel Sagan talks about the pressure between the eyebrows because it is something to develop, nurture and bring to fruition.

In his book called "Awakening the Third Eye" he says this:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Third-Eye-Samuel-Sagan/dp/0958670056

 

Remember that you are dealing with subtle perception. The

vibration should not be expected to feel like a dagger in your

forehead. Even if you can only perceive a faint little tingling or

pressure between the eyebrows, that will be enough to start the

process. All the other practices in the book will contribute to

enhancing and developing the perception.

Remember, no imagination, no visualisation. Let things come to

you. A certain tiny vibration is already present between the

eyebrows in everybody. The purpose is to reveal this natural

vibration, in order to cultivate it later on.

 

...

 

Note that the hand does not touch the skin.

For a few minutes, stay lying on the floor with the eyes closed,

breathing with the throat friction, aware between the eyebrows,

and the palm 1 inch in front of this area.

Phase 4

Keep your hand in front of you or put it back by your side, as

you prefer.

Remain with your eyes closed, breathing with the throat friction,

aware between the eyebrows.

Start looking for a vibration between the eyebrows. It can take

different forms: either a clear vibration or a tingling, or even a

rather blurry pressure, a weight or a density between the

eyebrows.

Do not try hard. Remain vacant, let things happen.

Note that your eyes remain closed during all phases of this

practice.

 

...

 

Phase 5

As soon as the faintest feeling of vibration or tingling, pressure,

pulsation, density or weight is perceived, proceed as follows: start

connecting the throat friction with the feeling between the

eyebrows.

Connecting means being aware of both the friction and the

vibration (or density, or pressure...) between the eyebrows at the

same time. As you proceed, the link between the friction energy

and the third eye will be perceived more and more clearly.

The vibration will change as you combine it with the friction. It

will become more subtle, and yet more intense at the same time.

Chapter 3 Awakening the Third Eye

34

If vibration or tingling is felt in some other part of the body, for

instance the whole of the forehead, the arms or even the whole

body, do not pay any attention to it. Just remain aware of the

vibration (or density, or pressure...) between the eyebrows.

Continue this phase for about 10 minutes, building up the

vibration between the eyebrows by connecting it with the throat

friction.

 

...

 

A common experience, in the beginning, is to feel vibration (or

pressure, density...) not only in the area between the eyebrows,

but also in other parts of the forehead or the face. If this happens

don't pay attention to it, just focus on the vibration between the

eyebrows, connecting it with the throat friction. With practice,

everything will fall into place.

 

 

...

First opening, synopsis of the practice

Lie down and relax.

1) Throat friction + awareness in the larynx

2) Throat friction + awareness between the eyebrows

3) Same as 2) + palm of the hand in front of the third eye

4) Throat friction + looking for vibration, tingling,

pressure, density... between the eyebrows

5) Connecting the throat friction

with the vibration between the eyebrows

6) Motionlessness connecting with the energy around you

 

...

5.12 Atlantean climax

Close your eyes and start with a reconnection (section 5.3): throat

friction, awareness of the vibration in the eye. Then remain aware

of the purple or dark space for about 2 minutes.

Open your eyes and implement the double process of vision

described in section 5.4:

1) awareness between the eyebrows, with total stillness

2) simultaneously, instead of looking at any of the details of the

image in front of you, become aware of the fact of seeing, or

seeingness (or, more simply, feel the image instead of looking at

it).

For this particular practice, it is essential that you blink as little

as possible, or preferably not at all. You have to build up a strong

pressure between the eyebrows, and reach a climax of stillness. The

two go together well: the more you are focussed in the eye, the

more you can become motionless. And the more you let your

energy densify (or crystallise) through your positive immobility,

the more you can build up the vibration in the eye.

Become more and more motionless. Build up the pressure between

the eyebrows until your body feels as solid as a statue a statue

of vibration. The state slowly develops into a connected

motionlessness that gives the feeling of a great accumulation of

power, as if your eye was receiving the force of a column of

energy falling straight onto it.

 

 

In the preceeding quotes, we have seen how the 'pressure between the eyebrows' is key to developing the third eye.

 

Ah, yes, but what good is the third eye, or developing the point between the eyebrows from a Buddhist or Dzogchen point of view?

 

Surprise surprise!

 

 

In the book called "Natural Liberation - Padmasambhava" in the advanced practices it sheds some light on the use of the point between the eyebrows. So, you see, the 'third eye stuff' is very relevant, even to Dzogchen.. To me, the most important function is to separate the dual from the non-dual.. (my words.. read on)

 

Next, place your body in the proper posture and so on, like before. For your meditative object, vividly direct your attention simply, without wavering, to a white, radiant, clear, limpid bindu at the point between your eyebrows. About the size of a white pea, it appears but is without an inherent nature. Gently release in clarity and joy, and settle your mind in its natural state. Do not be interrupted by thoughts. Meditate just like that, with many sessions of short duration, as before. Engage in that meditation for three days or as your own experience dictates. Whatever experiences occur from time to time, examine them. The phrase translated here as the point between the eyebrows, literally refers to the little curl of hair between the eyebrows, which is one of the signs of enlightenment of a Buddha. If you have one of those, youre in really good shape. If you dont, then visualize a white bindu at the point between the eyebrows where you will have that curl when you become a Buddha.

 

Padmasambhava (2012-06-04). Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (pp. 97-98). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

Yes, the "Lamp of Pristine Reality-Itself"...

 

 

The Primary Tantra on the Penetration of Sound states: The direct vision of reality-itself surely emerges from the apertures of the sense faculties, and it is radiant in the cloudless sky. Thus, by practicing in accordance with the critical points, between your eyebrows there is the so-called lamp of pristine reality-itself. It appears like the colors of a rainbow or the eye of a peacock feather. Inside it is the so-called lamp of the empty bindu, and it is like the concentric circles of ripples when you throw a stone into a pond.

Padmasambhava (2012-06-04). Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (pp. 244-245). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

This is from the Thogal section:

 

Thus, as a result of engaging in visionary experiences, at times the absolute nature and awareness become clear and at times they do not. By continuing to practice, the absolute nature and awareness are separated from the point between the eyebrows, they become separated from sensory phenomena, and the lamp of the empty bindus effortlessly arises and approaches. The bindus turn into the size of peas, and awareness proceeds like a bird that is just able to fly.

 

Padmasambhava (2012-06-04). Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (p. 247). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

So there you have it. The third eye, or the "Lamp of Pristine Reality-Itself" is something to be developed and it has a purpose, and is part of Thogal practices.

 

I have spent many many times feeling the pressure at the third eye, between the brows. It feels like a magnetic black hole. It can get bigger or smaller if you will it to rotate in one direction or another. If you 'suck' in inwards towards the area about 1 inch inside the head, it produces ecstasy as there is a connection to the perineum at that point. If you gently breath into that area, just above the sinuses as if you were subtly sniffing a fine essence, it activates the pressure. I've spent many a night feeling that magnetic black hole move around my head, move around my face, distorting the feeling of the physical form as it moves about.

If you look at the area that becomes pressurized, you can see a very clear open space in which visions and thoughts are present. If you push yourself outwards from the pressurized area, you enter into other realms. It is quite an amazing area.

If you 'suck' the pressure downwards, you can dissolve most of the body as it moves. It most definitely is a major key in the discovery and development of spirituality.

 

 

So the next time you read about "avoiding the pressure between the brows like it was the plague", you will know better, unlike the poor fools at DharmaWheel.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Spotless]

This is a very important point.

 

If you have come to feel this magnetic center do not cast it aside like some problem.

 

I have not looked into the many quotes by TI given in his original post but the tenor of what he is saying is very true. This is a very real treasure because it will act as a guide post as to whether or not you are centered within your path.

 

I have had this for some forty years - it is a milestone not to become infatuated with but also an awareness that will not leave you when you are In your path. If you do not feel it because it has left you, you will feel it again as you meditate, talk about meditation or spiritual things, sit in silence, listen to fine music, practicemovement and so forth.

 

Time and again it will awaken within you and if you work to reside in it and you are practicing with due dilligence, then other magnetic centers will arise in you and many more things will happen as a byproduct on the path.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Something is also illustrated in this posting - it appears that a high teacher recommended a ridiculous "remedy". Truely a crushingly stupid and pathetically ignorant one.

 

It cannot be over emphasized that many very high teachers have not reached the development of certain faculties. They may even be Awakened and very well along as Enlightening individuals. Yet their teaching can be woefully misleading in certain technical levels because they do not possess and to not recognize the missing links in their technical teachings.

 

In reality it is not necessary to crucify them for this or to think much less of them - they may have a teaching that is perfect in Awakening the students they attract. But this is why the great teacher knows that they know nothing (and guessing and lying to students is a great travesty). The pressure to have all the answers is illustrated time and again here in TTBs by many with incredibly (and outrageously ) high expectations on nearly every level (with the exception of personal practice of those with such high perfect expectations).

Edited November 10, 2014 by Spotless

[wangchungman]

You are mixing up the Ati system with the path of transformation that utilizes the defiled chakras. Third eye has nothing to do with Thogal. The channel in Thogal that goes from the heart to the eyes does not touch the brow chakra. The Kati channels are primordially pure, so they don't open or close. They don't have to be purified, as the chakras do. What the Thogal manuals are saying by the circle of light separating from between the eyebrows is that a light will appear as if it is manifesting between the eyes, but in front of the eyes. Not in the skull. Actually it is in the eyes. For Dzogchen practice having any particular chakra charge up and get energized is not desirable. For Dzogchen, the energy should dissipate right in its own place and should not gather and collect in any one place. For the brow chakra to become charged is therefore seen as a disorder to be adjusted with medicines, sky-gazing and such.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You are mixing up the Ati system with the path of transformation that utilizes the defiled chakras. Third eye has nothing to do with Thogal. The channel in Thogal that goes from the heart to the eyes does not touch the brow chakra. The Kati channels are primordially pure, so they don't open or close. They don't have to be purified, as the chakras do. What the Thogal manuals are saying by the circle of light separating from between the eyebrows is that a light will appear as if it is manifesting between the eyes, but in front of the eyes. Not in the skull. Actually it is in the eyes. For Dzogchen practice having any particular chakra charge up and get energized is not desirable. For Dzogchen, the energy should dissipate right in its own place and should not gather and collect in any one place. For the brow chakra to become charged is therefore seen as a disorder to be adjusted with medicines, sky-gazing and such.

Hi Wangchungman,

I mentioned Sagan's method for opening the third eye and the 'pressure' to show that they are related.

I am not mixing up the Ati System with chakras. I brought up the Thogal exercises from "Natural Libertaion" to show that the point between the eyebrows is relavant and vital.

Yes, the Kati Channel does not touch the brow. Never said it did. And, there is only one Kati channel which forks out into the two eyes.

I never said that the light appears in the skull. It doesn't. It appears out front. However, there is also a light behind the brows inside the skull.. And, no, that light is not in the eyes.

Yes, for Dzogchen, the energy never gathers and charges up any particular chakra. The practice of non-meditation, the penultimate instruction instruction in Dzogchen is simply to let everything be just as it is. However, we are not talking about that practice, we are talking about Thogal. There is a difference.

Therefore, your assumptions which lead to your final conclusion don't follow.

 

The central channel ends at the brow, or just a little beyond. The two channels, left and right, bend downwards and terminate at the nostrils. The Kati channel goes to the eyes and terminate at the pupils.

 

What the book, and other books like "Karma Chagme's book called "Naked Awareness" are telling us is that the point between the eyebrows plays a key role in Thogal.

 

First off, the Kati is one channel and it is recognized as being apart from the other channels.

 

The six "lamps" are: the citta lamp of the flesh, located in the heart; the lamp of the hollow crystal kati channel, which is a pale, delicate channel connecting the heart to the eyes; the fluid lasso lamp, referring to the eyes, which are like a lasso; the lamp of the pristine absolute space; the lamp of the empty bindus; and the lamp of self-arisen wisdom.

 

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2227-2229). Kindle Edition.

 

The lamp of the pristine absolute space is the one between the eyebrows.

 

In these next instructions, it explicitly states that by gazing and focusing on the point between the eyebrows the vital energies are inserted into the central channel.

 

C. How the Four Visions Appear

 

The manner in which [visions] arise as a result of such practice is taught in Avalokitesvara's White Instructions on the Meaning of Daytime Contemplation. The perceptual vision of reality-itself, called "the vajra strand of awareness," is like a crystal rosary. Without wavering, forcefully focus on that vision, which is free of the extremes of appearances and emptiness, at the point between your eyebrows.1" By so doing, there will arise visions due to dynamic vital energies being extinguished externally, and the vital energy of primordial wisdom being inserted into the central channel; and they are called "the six daytime signs."

 

The Perfect Expression of the Names of Manjusri states: [714]

 

The great bonfire of wisdom and primordial awareness Arises from space and arises from itself. Due to the insertion of the vital energy of the posterior channels into the central channel, there is said to be a shining redness like a blazing fire, called "the illumination of the great light." Due to the convergence of the vital energy of the anterior channels into the central channel, there is said to be a flash like lightning, called "the shining appearance of primordial wisdom." Due to the convergence of the vital energy on the left, there is a shimmering whiteness like the moon, called "the fire of the world." Due to the convergence of the karmic energies on the right, there is a shimmering redness like the sun, called "the lamp of primordial wisdom." Due to the convergence of the upper vital energy, there is a shimmering blackness like Rahu, called "the great, glorious clear light." Due to the convergence of the vital energy in the central channel, it is said that there appears a minute, dark bindu of rainbow light.

 

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2154-2164). Kindle Edition.

 

 

When one dissolves energies into the central channel, it is the same 'pressure' that one senses when one is activating the third eye. Coincidence or not, the fact remains that the location between the eyebrows plays a vital role in thogal.

 

The Thogal process, as far as I can understand it, is that the primordial wisdom arises from the heart, follows the kati channel into the eyes, and then the gaze directs the primordial wisdom into the central channel which terminates at the point of the gaze. It forms a connection, a loop if you will.

 

We all know that the central channel is "The Great Dissolver".

 

Again, in the book "Naked Awareness", it clearly defines the difference between the kati lamp and the lamp of absolute space:

 

By meditating in that way, at first, at the point between the eyebrows there appears something like rainbow light, called "the pristine lamp of the absolute space." Inside that is "the bindu of the empty lamp," which is like concentric circles from casting a stone [into a pool]. Inside that, which is like a circular plate of armor, appears a bindu the size of a mustard seed or a pea. Inside that are "the vajra-strands of awareness," which are minute like knots in a hair of a horse's tail, like pearls strung on a thread, like iron chains, like garlands of flowers rustled by a breeze, and so on. They all appear in sets of two, three, and so forth. They are your own awareness, called "the vajra-strand," and "the sole bindu."

 

The absolute space and awareness are present without uniting or separating, like the sun and its light rays. The mark of the absolute space is a halo, the mark of primordial wisdom is a bindu, [7161 and the marks of the embodiments are the strands. In terms of their location, while residing inside the citta, the bindu mark of primordial wisdom and the strand marks of the embodiments perceptually appear in the pathway of the senses. That dispels views entailing the grasping of speculation, analytical views of the intelligence that are constructed by words, the intellect, and so forth.

 

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2170-2177). Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

Therefore, your interpretation is quite different from Padmasambhava's and Karma Chagme's.

Perhaps you could site some sources of your interpretation so that we could check them out.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

[wangchungman]

The light is from the heart and emerges from the eyes. Thogal is the higher practice of non-meditation. Again, you are mixing up top and bottom so your remarks are wrong. The chains and bindus reside inside of the heart as it is explained. The connection with the eyes is that the Kati channels rise up from the heart, travel up the spine, up the sides of the neck, across the sides of the brain and terminate at the two eyes. Concentrating at the point between the eyebrows means they appear in front of you, but very close to you, as if between the eyebrows. The key feature of Thogal is that one is working with visual perception in a concrete way. The two channels, roma and kyangma which also travel up the sides of the body and terminate at the nostrils is what is related to the brow chakra. The lamp of pristine absolute space is not the brow chakra it is Trekcho. Finally, the quote from Manjushri relates to experiences from the practices of the path of transformation. Those are not related to Thogal. I'm afraid you have become mixed up.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The light is from the heart and emerges from the eyes. Thogal is the higher practice of non-meditation.

 

Thogal is not non-meditation, it is a form of gazing. In the books I've read non- meditation is resting on the natural state, doing absolutely nothing.

 

. The chains and bindus reside inside of the heart as it is explained. The connection with the eyes is that the Kati channels rise up from the heart, travel up the spine, up the sides of the neck, across the sides of the brain and terminate at the two eyes. Concentrating at the point between the eyebrows means they appear in front of you, but very close to you, as if between the eyebrows. The key feature of Thogal is that one is working with visual perception in a concrete way. The two channels, roma and kyangma which also travel up the sides of the body and terminate at the nostrils is what is related to the brow chakra. The lamp of pristine absolute space is not the brow chakra it is Trekcho. Finally, the quote from Manjushri relates to experiences from the practices of the path of transformation. Those are not related to Thogal. I'm afraid you have become mixed up.

From "Naked Awareness":

 

By meditating in that way, at first, 17151 at the point between the eyebrows there appears something like rainbow light, called "the pristine lamp of the absolute space."

 

Do you have a source for your statements? Which book did you get all that from? It seems to be quite mixed up. For example, trekchod is, according to The Golden Letters, a method of relaxation and preparation for thogal...

 

The principal point in Thekchod is to relax all these tensions of body, speech, and mind that obscure our inherent Buddha-nature, which has been primordially present as the Base (ye gzhi). In Thekchod practice, one settles into a state of contemplation without being distracted for a moment from the view of the primordial purity of our inherent nature. As the master Garab Dorje said, "Whatever is produced in the mind is unobstructed like the clouds in the sky. Having understood stood the meaning of the complete identity of all phenomena (in terms of their essence which is emptiness), then when one enters into this (state of contemplation) without following them, this is the true meditation." tation." Through the practice of Thekchod, one comes to understand and be totally familiar with the state of contemplation. Then, through the practice of Thodgal, one develops this state of contemplation through the medium of vision.

 

The term Thodgal (thod-rgal, rgal, Skt. vyutkrantaka) literally means "direct" (thod-rgal du) in the sense of an immediate and instantaneous transition from one location tion to another, where there is no intervening interval of time. Thus some would translate it as "leap over," but it is much more immediate than leaping about. And also here, when we say "vision" (snang-ba), ba), we are not speaking about visualization (dmigs-pa), which, for example, is much used in Tantra. Visualization is a process which involves the working of the mind. However, with Thekchod we have moved into a dimension beyond the mind, and, with Thodgal, one continues in this direction. Rather than visualizations created by the mind, we are talking about an integration with vision, with whatever ever arises spontaneously to vision while the practitioner is in the state of contemplation. Therefore, the mastery of contemplation through the practice of Thekchod is an immediate prerequisite to the practice of Thodgal.

 

Anyway, I believe I have supported my statements in his thread with verified quotes. You, in the other hand are not supporting your ideas with quotes or references but almost seem to be recalling them from memory or some other source.

[wangchungman]

There are twenty something or more ways to describe lamps from the terma texts. It is better to make generalizations. The pristine absolute space is always referring to the Dharmata, nature of mind as open and clear, kadag. It's not a chakra or a Bindu. Thodgal also does not mean a form of gazing. It is a mode of liberation. It is also referring to lhundrub, the five lights which are also the nature of mind. Sometimes thogal will make use of gazing into sky to reveal vajra chains. But by the second vision it is not necessary. In some teachings one sits in dark to make visions appear. Gazing up is optional. It's true I'm not going to use quotes. Those are easily misinterpreted, as you are doing. I assure you Thogal is the practice of resting in the nature of mind as a mode of liberation. And it does so without involving the two side channels and the chakras. What it's really doing is dealing with the true nature of the sense organs in the head.

[Tibetan_Ice]

There are twenty something or more ways to describe lamps from the terma texts. It is better to make generalizations. The pristine absolute space is always referring to the Dharmata, nature of mind as open and clear, kadag. It's not a chakra or a Bindu. Thodgal also does not mean a form of gazing. It is a mode of liberation. It is also referring to lhundrub, the five lights which are also the nature of mind. Sometimes thogal will make use of gazing into sky to reveal vajra chains. But by the second vision it is not necessary. In some teachings one sits in dark to make visions appear. Gazing up is optional. It's true I'm not going to use quotes. Those are easily misinterpreted, as you are doing. I assure you Thogal is the practice of resting in the nature of mind as a mode of liberation. And it does so without involving the two side channels and the chakras. What it's really doing is dealing with the true nature of the sense organs in the head.

Read http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Selections-form-the-Bonpo-Book-of-the-Dead.pdf?41c083

Then we'll talk..

[wangchungman]

Read http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Selections-form-the-Bonpo-Book-of-the-Dead.pdf?41c083

Then we'll talk..

oh too long academic book

[eye_of_the_storm]

vajra chains?

hmm

 

 

 

Vajra chains – “Indestructible chains of light, reality or awareness”.

It is described as strings of connected Thigle that make up the various forms of so-called ‘external’ objects of reality.

According to the Buddha Brats expression of Dzogchen, the exact form and experience of the Vajra Chains may differ from person to person depending on their cultural or personal predilection. For example, Adamas experiences them as a combination of DNA-like structures with some type of runes embedded in them. For Anri it takes on the form of cellular structures similar to that of plants, animals or people. It is uncertain at this point whether the Vajra chains stay the same in appearance to each person, or whether it evolves with time and increased insight.

Once again it is imperative to remember that everything seen as ‘out there’ is merely a projection of the ‘self’ onto the screen of space so the Vajra chains are in essence a visual experience of ones own true Natural State.

- See more at: http://www.buddhabrats.com/glossary/vajra-chains#sthash.ZcQqslVt.dpuf

Edited November 14, 2014 by eye_of_the_storm

[Spotless]

Aiside from references and quotes and the constant use of the language from teachings that nearly none of us are familiar with, the experience of "pressure" between the brows should draw inquiry into the nature of the feeling first and foremost and not the knee jerk reaction of it being a problem.

 

However, the initial feeling of the emerging abilities and sensitivities in this area are not something many are fully versed in and "pressure" appears as a dirty word or something that is imbalanced as a result of the ignorance.

 

In most cases the emergence of wording using the word "pressure" in this area is a key message to the teacher that the student is reaching new stages in their practice and more formal inquiry into the nature of their activities is called for. If it is truly an imbalance that will be easily determined, but in my experience with those actively seeking and meditating and doing due dilligence to cultivation, this wording "pressure between the brows" not only usually denotes attainment in this area, it is clearly visible if you can see into them.

 

I am currently working with someone that has had both an imbalance and visions - he was a mess when I began to work with him and he has successfully turned things around. He has spectacular capabilities that he had been approaching as problems - it was amusing and difficult to watch at the same time but it was very clear from the outset what the "problems" were.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Spotless

[wangchungman]

If one is a Dzogchen practitioner, pressure is aided by drinking beer, maybe eating some bitter fruit, maybe eating some medicine like Bimala, relaxing in water, looking out at clear blue sky and continuing to see the lights and appearances of rigpa.

[Tibetan_Ice]

oh too long academic book

Well then I would recommend two practice manuals:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Meditation-Clear-Light-Transmission/dp/B0076WQZ8Q/ref=pd_sxp_f_i

 

And

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Stages-A-Khrid-Meditation-Tradition/dp/8186470034/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

 

You will find that both books at some point mention the three channels, the cakras as an aid to developing the visions (if you don't see any visions).

 

I was going to ask you, who is your guru? Is it CN Norbu? Where do you get your information from? When you referred to the second vision, were you talking from experience or were you restating what you had read somewhere?

[wangchungman]

Well then I would recommend two practice manuals:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Meditation-Clear-Light-Transmission/dp/B0076WQZ8Q/ref=pd_sxp_f_i

 

And

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Stages-A-Khrid-Meditation-Tradition/dp/8186470034/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

 

You will find that both books at some point mention the three channels, the cakras as an aid to developing the visions (if you don't see any visions).

 

I was going to ask you, who is your guru? Is it CN Norbu? Where do you get your information from? When you referred to the second vision, were you talking from experience or were you restating what you had read somewhere?

A teacher Taklung Tsetrul. I have the transmissions and experience.

[wangchungman]

My practice is day and night practice of yangti.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Taklung Tsertrul is one of the senior members of the Nyingma tradition. How did you manage that? Did you go to India?

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Taklung_Tsetrul_Rinpoche

 

How long have you been practicing?

[C T]

Taklung Tsertrul is one of the senior members of the Nyingma tradition. How did you manage that? Did you go to India?

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Taklung_Tsetrul_Rinpoche

 

How long have you been practicing?

Actually he is the present lineage head of that tradition.

[wangchungman]

Taklung Tsertrul is one of the senior members of the Nyingma tradition. How did you manage that? Did you go to India?

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Taklung_Tsetrul_Rinpoche

 

How long have you been practicing?

He travels too. I have practiced for my whole life.

[Brian]

Strikes me a odd that you didn't mention this in your introductory post:

Hey guys,

 

What can I say about me? My name is Kevin. I've been into martial arts since I was a little boy. Taekwando at 6, Karate at 8-22. I did Renbukai in Sacramento. My sensei turned me on to Tao of Jeet Kun Do by Bruce Lee. I went to college and studied Wang Chung with Ken at Stanford. I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee and Ip Man. Love all the Bruce Lee movies and all the Ip Man biopics. I'm really into Wang Chung. I've gotten to a point in my life where I want to incorporate the spiritual aspects of the art. Thanks guys.

 

Kev

[wangchungman]

Strikes me a odd that you didn't mention this in your introductory post:

 

Definitely love Kung Fu. Lifetime of passion for martial arts. I didn't get to learn enough internal style. My Dzogchen interest was something I didn't talk about until a recent meeting with my teacher. I want to say more but even today I had my screen freeze when I tried. I take this as a sign to say less.

[doc benway]

Definitely love Kung Fu. Lifetime of passion for martial arts. I didn't get to learn enough internal style. My Dzogchen interest was something I didn't talk about until a recent meeting with my teacher. I want to say more but even today I had my screen freeze when I tried. I take this as a sign to say less.

I also have (had) a lifetime passion for the martial arts. Studied for about 40 years. About a third of that in the internals.

As my Dzogchen practice deepened, I felt that I had to let it go. I just had no room for the violence in my life.

Similarly, I let go of things I used to enjoy like fly fishing and eating meat - just can't derive any pleasure from it anymore.

I still do a little taiji and bagua practice and teaching but only from a health and cultivation perspective.

I am trying to let go of the tendency to visualize martial applications when I practice.

[wangchungman]

I'm still okay with defending myself using force. But I try to use my personality to defend me first. As they say one friend is one less enemy.

[Tibetan_Ice]

There are twenty something or more ways to describe lamps from the terma texts. It is better to make generalizations. The pristine absolute space is always referring to the Dharmata, nature of mind as open and clear, kadag. It's not a chakra or a Bindu. Thodgal also does not mean a form of gazing. It is a mode of liberation. It is also referring to lhundrub, the five lights which are also the nature of mind. Sometimes thogal will make use of gazing into sky to reveal vajra chains. But by the second vision it is not necessary. In some teachings one sits in dark to make visions appear. Gazing up is optional. It's true I'm not going to use quotes. Those are easily misinterpreted, as you are doing. I assure you Thogal is the practice of resting in the nature of mind as a mode of liberation. And it does so without involving the two side channels and the chakras. What it's really doing is dealing with the true nature of the sense organs in the head.

Where to begin? You don't seem to be talking the same language that I am familiar with or the language of the books that I have read.

Resting the in the natural state is not Thogal, although resting in the natural state is the first step.

Thogal is a gazing practice in the sense that, whether or not your eyes are open or closed, you continue to direct attention into the visual field (the eyes). There are three 'gazing' directions in Thogal, up, straight ahead and down. The up gives you the dharmakaya, the straight ahead give you the sambogakaya, and the down gives you the nirmanikaya. There are also three postures in Thogal, which all increase the pressure in the lower body, permitting the Bodhicitta to pressurize and move up into the eyes.

 

First off, "resting in the nature of mind" is "resting in the natural state". This is not Thogal.

 

Recognizing the natural state

par Jean-Luc le Mer 29 Juin - 13:17

 

 

 

 

Lopön Tenzin Namdak (slightly edited) :

 

" In order to recognize the natural state clearly, you should look back to your thoughts. When you do so, you realize that both the agent who is watching and the object which is being watched disappear simultaneously.

 

If you observe carefully what is happening at that time, you will see that you actually cannot find anything. There is nothing there. However, you are not falling into a state of unconsciousness : rather, if you look with great attention, you will see that this state is actually quite clear and luminous. It is impossible to describe it because it transcends all description and because the language is fondamentally conditioned.

 

This state is beyond definition and beyond mental grasping. Still, it is perfectly aware of itself since, when you abide in such a state, you realize that you are in your original mode or primordial state itself. You should check this very often and familiarize yourself with this as much as you can."

 

 

 

Re: Recognizing the natural state

par Jean-Luc le Jeu 30 Juin - 12:36

 

 

 

 

Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche (slightly edited):

 

" When you have become familiar with that state and when you cultivate it again and again, without any artifice, then your experience of this state will gradually become stabler.

 

When it starts to become stable, you will notice that impure thoughts will not rise as they usually do and you will see them naturally purified by themselves. These impure thoughts will grow rarer and rarer, until they completely pacify within the natural state.

 

Reaching such a stage is extremely important for the cultivation of the experience of the natural state in a continuous way."

 

 

Further, according to Jean -Luc Archard, it is not "resting in the natural state"..

 

 

 

To illustrate one dramatic counter-example of qualification in explaining Dzogchen and its general approach, the works on "radical Dzogchen" (nothing like this ever existed in the traditional lineages) by K. Dowman naturally come to mind. I must admit to have been profoundly shocked by some lines, just on the 1st page of his introduction to his book on Longchenpa's Treasury of the Natural State; there he says :

 

" (Dzogchen's) popularity may be attributed to a single basic tenet, which is contained in the notion of "non-action". The buddha-nature is immanent in every moment of experience and simply by recognizing the moment and relaxing into it that realization is achieved."

 

To say it mildly, this is probably the worst you can read about Dzogchen. All those who have followed a traditional training, with Lopön Rinpoche or other traditional masters, know that "non-action" is everything but "doing nothing". Non-action (bya bral) means not being involved in the projections of the discursive mind, not being involved in the actions of the three doors, etc. The practice of Dzogchen itself is also everything but "doing nothing". Dowman's statement, coming from someone who claims proficiency in Dzogchen teachings, clearly demonstrates he has no actual knowledge of how Dzogchen is practiced.

 

Furthermore, Buddha-nature (sangs rgyas kyi rang bzhin) is an expression that is very very very rarely used in Dzogchen texts. There is no reason why Dowman should choose such an expression in the context of his introduction, except for the fact that this is a compound that is likeley to be understood by most of his readership. But then, Buddha-nature is not "immanent in every moment of experience", otherwise it would mean that one is already fully enlightened right now despite the fact that one clearly lacks the ability to display the Bodies (sku) and Wisdoms (ye shes) which characterize the actual, authentic expression of the Fruit of Buddhahood. Therefore, here again, Dowman's statement amounts simply to nonsense.

 

But this does not stop here. As you have read above, it goes as far as saying that "simply by recognizing the moment and relaxing into it" then one becomes fully realized. This is total nonsense. There are so many tibetan texts and oral instructions which clearly state again and again that the experience of Rigpa is not sufficient in itself. Knowing Rigpa does not liberate, one has to bring that experience to such a level of familiarization and integration that one never regresses again from it, and this implies of course "non-action", i.e. non-involvement into the activities of the three doors, and certainly not anything like "doing nothing". It is really dramatic that a "translator" brings so many misconceptions into only a couple of sentences and therefore leads his reader astray. Furthermore, Dzogchen is not relaxation per se, otherwise any person attending relaxation classes in yoga class would already have grasped the meaning of Dzogchen, I really doubt this. One should not misunderstand the method and the state, just like one should not look only at the finger pointing at the moon...

 

On the same page, Dowman reaches the full measure of ridiculousness when saying : " It is unfortunately true that a heavy seriousness tends to pervade texts on the Dzogchen view(...)". What does Dowman expect? Sunday comics prose? Dzogchen is not the Simpsons. The Dzogchen View is complex and very precise. It is indeed unfortunate that individuals lacking the mental capacities to grasp that View just as it is formulate their own conditioned and illiterate opinions on a subject that totally transcends their pathetical judgements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You mention the second vision..

 

In my current experiences of 'gazing' with eyes closed while maintaining fresh attention in the eye consciousness, I am now seeing beautiful colors and displays that I haven't seen before. I did find this little bit about it today..

 

Increased Luminous Experiences (nyams snang gong 'phel)

par Jean-Luc le Dim 3 Avr - 4:19

 

 

 

 

Increased Luminous Experiences(nyams snang gong phel)

 

1. Literal meaning

nyams snang : luminous experiences, visionary experiences.

gong phel : increase.

 

2. Definition

Second vision of the Thögel practice. The detail of this vision and its actual meaning will be given under the entry "Vision of Increased Luminous Experiences."

 

In the Dra Thelgyur Tantra, it is said regarding this vision:

 

The (Vision of) Increased Luminous Experiences

Absolishes the manifestations of delusion.

 

(nyams snang gong du phel ba yis/ khrul pai snang ba nub pa byed/).

 

When the practitioner becomes familiar with Space and Awareness (dbyings rig), outwardly he abides in a state in which the diamond chains of his Awareness arise in a mode undifferenciated from the visions of Space (dbyings snang). Inwardly, the natural radiance of his Awareness becomes non-dually unified with the Emptiness of the Primordial Purity, in a such a way that Mother and Son Clear-Lights become mixed together. At that time, many visionary experiences (snang nyams) arise in a manner which is considerably intensified compared to their arising during the first vision of Thögel.

 

Still according to the Dra Thelgyur, the visionary elements that characterize this vision are the arising of extremely vivid colors (kha dog, whereas in the first vision colors were rather rare), the appearence of vertical lines, concentric rays, various kinds of Luminous Discs or sphere (thig le), as well as divine bodies (sku), etc.

 

 

 

Have you completed all four visions?

What was your experience in the fourth vision?

Edited November 25, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[wangchungman]

It was a clear appearance. Like a first person shooter,meeting different beings. Then realizing these were iterations of reflections.