Who wants to talk about Robber Chih?!

[Nerien]

I wish I had a little knowledge of the person Robber Cheh.

 

In my mind he was some kind of Robin Hood. Stole from the rich, kept for himself and his followers only what was needed and then gave the remainder to the poor, back to those the rich had stolen from in the first place. This is Tao. (No moral values needed.)

 

When the rains fall it falls on all equally. This is Tao. (We are not talking about the virtues of man. Some men would be thankful for the rain and others would be irritated because it rained on their parade.)

 

Does Tao even have principles? The closest my mind can come to "principles" are the laws of physics as they are now known.

 

In my mind, we don't need to know much about the Robber, because we are already told that he 'died for gain'. This is not virtue. Perhaps if he'd been a robber who didn't care about gain, but merely enjoyed robbing because in doing so he was being himself, that he would be truly virtuous and be with the Tao.

 

The first two lose all they have of value in their care because they're distracted with trivial things, the second two lose their lives because they had unnatural goals and ideals. Reputation and gain as a goal corrupts and leads to ruin. Reputation and gain as a side effect of being sincere and yourself does not. You don't care to gain or lose these things.

[Marblehead]

In my mind, ...

Excellent addition to the discussion. Perhaps we can discuss this more as we get further into the discussion of him and the concepts presented using him as the vehicle.

[GrandmasterP]

Might Robber Chi have been a sort of Robin Hood character?

Many cultures have one of those.

The popular brigand who is said to "Rob the rich to feed the poor."

Outlaws can be quite popular .

Maybe not to their victims but in the sense of the romantic popular imagination.

Edited November 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Might Robber Chi have been a sort of Robin Hood character?

Many cultures have one of those.

The popular brigand who is said to "Rob the rich to feed the poor."

Outlaws can be quite popular .

Maybe not to their victims but in the sense of the romantic popular imagination.

Yeah, I have wondered about that. I might have to do some research if no one offers us some info about him (if there is any available).

[ChiDragon]

FYI......
Chapter 10 was not about any special robber character like Robbin Hood. It is about the principles of robbers. It was describing how a good or professional robber should be. BTW Chih(跖) was not a robber. He was a scholar explaining the principles of the robbers(盗) to a disciple.

故跖之徒问于跖曰：“盗亦有道 乎？”
跖曰：“何适而无有道邪？
1. 夫妄意室中之藏，圣也；
2. 入先，勇 也；
3. 出后，义也；
4. 知可否，知也；
5. 分均，仁也。

五者不备而能成大盗 者，天下未之有也。”

Here is the trasnlation from Chapter 10
A disciple of Chih(跖) asked Chih said "Do robbers have principles also?"
Chih said: "Why shouldn't they have any principles?"
1. Knowing what was stored in the room, it was intelligent(圣也).
2. Moves in first, it was brave(勇也).
3. Moved out last, it was an obligation of leadership.
4. Know when is time to take action, it was wise.
5. Dividing (the goods) equally, it was benevolent.

Those who can became great robbers without knowing these five principles; they have not existed in the world yet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
故跖之徒问于跖曰：“盗亦有道 乎？”
A disciple of Chih asked Chih said "Do robbers have principles also?"

跖曰：“何适而无有道邪？"
Chih said: "Why shouldn't they have any principles?"

1. 夫妄意室中之藏，圣也；
Knowing what was stored in the room, it was intelligent(圣也).

2. 入先，勇也；
Moves in first, it was brave(勇也).

3. 出后，义也；
Moved out last, it was an obligation of leadership.

4. 知可否，知也；
Know when is time to take action, it was wise.

5. 分均，仁也。
Dividing (the goods) equally, it was benevolent.

五者不备而能成大盗 者，天下未之有也。”
Those who can became great robbers without knowing these five principles; they have not existed in the world yet.

Ref: http://so.gushiwen.org/guwen/bookv_3263.aspx

[Marblehead]

FYI......

Chapter 10 was not about any special robber character like Robbin Hood. It is about the principles of robbers. It was describing how a good or professional robber should be. BTW Chih(跖) was not a robber. He was a scholar explaining the principles of the robbers(盗) to a disciple.

 

But ChiDragon, why is he always referred to as Robber Cheh? And why is there an entire Chapter (29) titled in his name?

 

I think the disciple you refer to was a disciple of the Robber Cheh. If it were otherwise the scholars name would have been mentioned.

 

So far Robber Cheh was the image Robin Hood later became. At least until someone offers so better thoughts and preferable comments about him by someone doing a critique of Chuang Tzu.

[ChiDragon]

MH.....
Yes, you are right. I did not do my homework. Btw I just have glance at Chapter 19, Robber Cheh was no Robin Hood but a tyrant.


Edited to add:

So far Robber Cheh was the image Robin Hood later became.

Okay, I had gone through Chapter 19. At the end, Robber Cheh had kicked Confucius out of his camp and he was not the image Robin Hood later became. Edited November 15, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Okay, I had gone through Chapter 19. At the end, Robber Cheh had kicked Confucius out of his camp and he was not the image Robin Hood later became.

Well, I was hoping. Through the discussion I still might find a way to glorify him.

[Nerien]

Excellent addition to the discussion. Perhaps we can discuss this more as we get further into the discussion of him and the concepts presented using him as the vehicle.

 

Oh! My bad. I thought you were doing this. This is a historical discussion, I now see.

 

I'm an idiot.

[Marblehead]

Oh! My bad. I thought you were doing this. This is a historical discussion, I now see.

 

I'm an idiot.

You're funny. No bad done and I'm sure you are not an idiot.

 

This is Rara's thread and I don't want to be leading the discussion.

 

We will get into the philosophical concepts, I assure you, once we actually start looking at Chapter 29.

 

I am sure that what we have already talked about will recur within Chapter 29 as well as discussing what you spoke of.

 

I was just hoping that we could find out a little more about the individual, Robber Cheh, before we started talking about him.

[Rara]

I have a feeling that we will probably find out more about him as we study the chapters. Shall we roll all the main ones into this thread? Perhaps good translations of 10, 25 and 29?

 

Edit: Actually, just scanned 25 and cant see him mentioned.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

I have a feeling that we will probably find out more about him as we study the chapters. Shall we roll all the main ones into this thread? Perhaps good translations of 10, 25 and 29?

Well, Robber Chih is mentioned in Chapters 8, 10, and 11 and then the Chapter in his name, 29.

 

As far as translations, I prefer Burton Watson's. Legge's complete translation and Watson's are available on the internet so everyone interested would have full access to The Chuang Tzu.

 

I have Burton's translation in MS Word format so I can easily copy/paste any sections you want to talk about.

 

I will offer whatever help I can.

[Rara]

Well, Robber Chih is mentioned in Chapters 8, 10, and 11 and then the Chapter in his name, 29.

 

As far as translations, I prefer Burton Watson's. Legge's complete translation and Watson's are available on the internet so everyone interested would have full access to The Chuang Tzu.

 

I have Burton's translation in MS Word format so I can easily copy/paste any sections you want to talk about.

 

I will offer whatever help I can.

Yes, just realised 25 must have been a typo.

 

Sure, fancy copying and pasting them in order, then we can analyse bit by bit?

[Marblehead]

Okay, let's give it a shot. From Chapter Eight but this time the entire concept: (Watson's translation)

 

 

The slave boy and the slave girl were out together herding their sheep, and both of them lost their flocks. Ask the slave boy how it happened: well, he had a bundle of writing slips and was reading a book. Ask the slave girl how it happened: well, she was playing a game of toss-and-wait-your-turn. They went about the business in different ways, but in losing their sheep they were equal. Po Yi died for reputation at the foot of Shou-yang mountain; Robber Chih died for gain on top of Eastern Mound. The two of them died different deaths, but in destroying their lives and blighting their inborn nature they were equal. Why then must we say that Po Yi was right and Robber Chih wrong?

Everyone in the world risks his life for something. If he risks it for benevolence and righteousness, then custom names him a gentleman; if he risks it for goods and wealth, then custom names him a petty man. The risking is the same, and yet we have a gentleman here, a petty man there. In destroying their lives and blighting their inborn nature, Robber Chih and Po Yi were two of a kind. How then can we pick out the gentleman from the petty man in such a case?

[ChiDragon]

The former example was using the two shepherds in doing different things but causing the same result.

It seems to me this Chapter is about the sacrifice in the value of death rather than the risks. A comparison was made between a gentleman and villain. Two persons maybe dead at different place for a different cause. A person who dies for benevolence and righteousness was a gentleman. A person who dies for goods and wealth was a villain. Thus Robber Cheh was used, here, as an example as a villain.

[Marblehead]

The former example was using the two shepherds in doing different things but causing the same result.

 

It seems to me this Chapter is about the sacrifice in the value of death rather than the risks. A comparison was made between a gentleman and villain. Two persons maybe dead at different place for a different cause. A person who dies for benevolence and righteousness was a gentleman. A person who dies for goods and wealth was a villain. Thus Robber Cheh was used, here, as an example as a villain.

Good observation. I will point out though that both died before their natural time. I think that this is an important concept. I also think it is a build on Loa Tzu's concepts about living one's life so to avoid (premature) death.

 

I will also point out that I have determined that Robber Chih is a fictitious character created by Chuang Tzu but I have a feeling that the character was built upon a real person of perhaps Lao Tzu's time. I must do more research on that though.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Marblehead

[Rara]

Haha, I make no connection with the slave boy/girl with Po Yi and Robber Chih...like most of Chuang Tzu, it should be separated into paragraphs!

 

So the Po Yi/Robber Chih comparrison is straight forward. The writer effectively says: you cannot criticise the life of Robber Chih when the more respected man effectively wasted his life the same way. But neither man has the way of the sage...

[Rara]

I will also point out that I have determined that Robber Chih is a fictitious character created by Chuang Tzu but I have a feeling that the character was built upon a real person of perhaps Lao Tzu's time. I must do more research on that though.

Yes, I can't seem to find any online resources but if you do, or find any books, let me know! Even if he is fictional, I like a good villain in literature/film!

[Marblehead]

Haha, I make no connection with the slave boy/girl with Po Yi and Robber Chih...like most of Chuang Tzu, it should be separated into paragraphs!

In both cases all four were not paying attention to the more important thing; minding the sheep and preserving their life.

 

So the Po Yi/Robber Chih comparrison is straight forward. The writer effectively says: you cannot criticise the life of Robber Chih when the more respected man effectively wasted his life the same way. But neither man has the way of the sage...

While searching to see if Chih was a real person a couple writers pointed this out. This idea will likely be worked by Chuang Tzu later.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I can't seem to find any online resources but if you do, or find any books, let me know! Even if he is fictional, I like a good villain in literature/film!

While searching I found our discussion. Hehehe.

 

I have a name if you want to see what you can find: Yang Zhe

 

I haven't searched for him yet but twice he was mentioned while I was searching for Robber Chih information.

[Rara]

In both cases all four were not paying attention to the more important thing; minding the sheep and preserving their life.

 

Yes, I see now. They could have at least had some sort of connecting word like "similarly". That said, Chinese syntax is quite different to ours! ChiDragon can maybe tell us more about the writing style...

[Rara]

While searching I found our discussion. Hehehe.

 

I have a name if you want to see what you can find: Yang Zhe

 

I haven't searched for him yet but twice he was mentioned while I was searching for Robber Chih information.

One day we will become a detective duo.

 

I shall have a look.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I see now. They could have at least had some sort of connecting word like "similarly". That said, Chinese syntax is quite different to ours! ChiDragon can maybe tell us more about the writing style...

 

The modern Chinese writings are not any different than English. However, the Chinese classics are written in metaphoric style. They are like riddles. One just by knowing the characters is not suffice to interpret the classics. They are lots of characters had their own meaning in the past. One must know what they mean before to avoid using contemporary definitions of the characters. One, also, should avoid using mixed cultural philosophies to contaminate the original thoughts.

 

The reader requires to speak and read the language fluently with a good cultural and historical background in order to solve the riddles. In addition, it requires a strong clear logical mind with inductive and deductive reasoning to rule out all the fallacies and sort out the facts. One should not lock in with the first interpretation as it comes in mind. It should be constantly update as new information or understanding which come in mind. Do not rely on somebody else saying, blindly, if it doesn't make any sense.

 

One must ask the question, this is what I think it means, is it really? Do I have all the back up sources for confirmation....??? The initial approach is to find out what did other people say about this before reaching one's own conclusion.

[ChiDragon]

This is Rara's thread and I don't want to be leading the discussion.

We will get into the philosophical concepts, I assure you, once we actually start looking at Chapter 29.

 

I am sure that what we have already talked about will recur within Chapter 29 as well as discussing what you spoke of.

I was just hoping that we could find out a little more about the individual, Robber Cheh, before we started talking about him.

 

I think most of the answers about Robber Cheh is in Chapter 29. The other native sources are pointing to the fact that he was the brother of 柳下季, a friend of Confucius.

 

Classic....

孔子與柳下季爲友，柳下季之弟名曰盜蹠。盜蹠從卒九千人，橫行天下，侵暴諸侯。穴室樞戶，驅人牛馬，取人婦女。貪得忘親，不顧父母兄弟，不祭先祖。所過之邑，大國守城，小國入保，萬民苦之。

 

Modern interpretation....

孔子和柳下季結為朋友，柳下季的弟弟，名字叫做盜跖。盜跖率領的部隊有九千人，肆無忌憚地橫行天下，侵暴諸侯。入室作案，搶奪牛馬，擄人老婆。貪財忘親，不顧父母兄弟，不祭先祖。凡是盜跖所經過的地方，大國的人民在嚴守城防，小國的人民都進駐城內，所有的人都感到痛苦。

 

 

 

English translation of the modern interpretation.

Confucius and Liu become friends, Liu's younger brother named 盜跖(Robber Cheh). 盜跖 led a troop of nine thousand men. He tyrannize the world, rob people's home, takes life stocks, takes others' wives, greedy for wealth and disregard who are his relatives, abandon his parents and brothers, does not worship his ancestors. All the big countries need to defend their castles while in his path; and the small countries had to stay inside their castles. All the people are aggravated with his presence.

 

 

Ref:柳下季(Liu Xia Ji) was known as 柳下惠（前720—前621)

http://baike.baidu.com/subview/46796/12861540.htm?fromtitle=%E6%9F%B3%E4%B8%8B%E5%AD%A3&fromid=676384&type=syn

Edited November 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

That doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Robber Chih. Hehehe.