Who wants to talk about Robber Chih?!

[Rara]

I'm back. But, regretfully, I have not made a decision as to how to go about speaking to Chapter 29 and the Robber Chih.

 

There are three section within Chapter 29 but only the first section pertains to Robber Chih. The other two sections basically build upon the concepts presented in the first section.

 

Section 1 is very long, too long to actually post here, I think.

 

Can we just talk about the concepts and include just short quotes to support our understandings of the concepts?

I guess so. I will refer to Burton Watson's for now and I'm sure others will chime in if they see something up with our analysis.

[Rara]

 

I think the western definition of a "sage" is this:

A mentor in spiritual and philosophical topics who is renowned for profound wisdom

Yes but what I meant was, the Chinese version didn't actually say "sage"?

[ChiDragon]

Yes but what I meant was, the Chinese version didn't actually say "sage"?

 

Yes, the Chinese version didn't actually say that was not by Zhuang Zi's definition anyway. However, as far as a sage goes, linguistic wise, Confucius was classified as 聖人(sage) which fits the definition in the west. If you can keep up with the difference in definitions, you will avoid lots of confusion with the different Chinese philosophers. So far, you are doing quite well. I think!

 

"Confucius was a mentor in spiritual and philosophical topics who is renowned for profound wisdom."

 

 

Note:

As a Taoist practice, knowing the distinctive difference of things with comprehension is the highest realm for the cultivation of the mind.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Oh, we are going to have fun when we start talking about Chapter 29.

 

The sagely Robber Chih.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Let me get this started.

 

Note that the narrative of Robber Chih presents him as a very vile person. This can be seen in the first paragraph and in the paragraph where Confucius first meets Robber Chih.

 

I think Chuang Tzu wanted to make sure that the readier understood that he did not condone Robber Chih's actions.

[Rara]

Okay. Let me get this started.

 

Note that the narrative of Robber Chih presents him as a very vile person. This can be seen in the first paragraph and in the paragraph where Confucius first meets Robber Chih.

 

I think Chuang Tzu wanted to make sure that the readier understood that he did not condone Robber Chih's actions.

Bear with me...my thoughts will be along soon. With work and two birthdays to attend this weekend, it might be next week before I respond. Hang tight!

[Marblehead]

Bear with me...my thoughts will be along soon. With work and two birthdays to attend this weekend, it might be next week before I respond. Hang tight!

I'll be around if anyone posts to this thread.

[ChiDragon]

I think Chuang Tzu wanted to make sure that the readier understood that he did not condone Robber Chih's actions.

 

I think Chuang Tzu couldn't careless about Robber Chih's act but Confucius does.

 

The first paragraph says that Robber Chih's brother has advised that Confucius should not go to persuade Chih not to continue with the tyrant acts. However, Confucius was still insisted to go to give it a try and ended up was being kicked out of Chih's camp site.

 

That was another one of those critics from Zhuang Tzu by saying how ignorant that Confucius was due to his stubbornness......

 

Do you think that Chuang Tzu will let Confucius get away with it that easy without criticizing him....???

Edited November 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I think Chuang Tzu couldn't careless about Robber Chih's act but Confucius does.

 

... by saying how ignorant that Confucius was due to his stubbornness......

 

Do you think that Chuang Tzu will let Confucius get away with it that easy without criticizing him....???

Yes, later in the section there will be support for what you said.

 

I just wanted to make sure we see Robber Chih in the light he is presented. He is not a Robin Hood as I had hoped. He is one mean mother, sitting there eating the livers of people he has killed without discrimination.

 

But true too that it is a criticism of Confucius for wanting to have everyone live according to his standards, standards which Chuang Tzu think are a corruption of man's true nature.

[Rara]

Hello, I'm back I only reread the first part of Chapter 29 but we can talk about the rest if people think it's relevant.

 

From the engagement between Confucius and Chih, I have the following:

 

1. Yes, Chuang Tzu wants to highlight Confucius' stubbornness and failure to realise that Chih can't be pursuaded.

 

2. Robber Chih is a grim fella, robber and cannibal! But:

 

3. He appears to school Confucious when it comes to virtue. The chapter is heavily in Chih's favour by giving him so much speech. If we're to take theatre as a reference, Shakespeare especially, such a speech would signify importance of the character and the values they are presenting. Could Chuang Tzu be talking via Robber Chih?

 

4. Chih is critical of specific people, most notably Po Yi, who is mentioned in Chapter 10, and the Yellow Emperor. Now isn't the latter supposed to be a highly respected immortal in Taoism?

 

Chih could well be fictional, and a tool for Chuang Tzu to speak through. Like CD said, I think that Chuang Tzu doesn't so much care about what Confucius would label as immoral, because he sees Confucius as a hypocrite. The feudal lords and robbers have no difference...so perhaps Chuang Tzu was not enlightened in the sense that is portrayed often in, say, Buddhism. Perhaps his view of liberation is not from appearing as a "good" person, but simply being awake. Chih might be a vulgar man, but he has no delusions. He has principles among his own men that are honest, and recognises the hypocrisy of the royals - something that the royals cannot see themselves!

Edited November 24, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Excellent observations in your points 3 and 4 as well as the paragraph that follows.

 

I think there are two main purposes for the story of Robber Chih.

 

The first is to contradict Confucius' teachings.

 

The second is to point out that there is really no difference between Robber Chin's actions and the actions of the rulers who pass laws which allow them to do the same thing Robber Chih does.

 

AT least Robber Chih understands the Way of Tao whereas Confucius and the rulers do not.

[Rara]

Excellent observations in your points 3 and 4 as well as the paragraph that follows.

 

I think there are two main purposes for the story of Robber Chih.

 

The first is to contradict Confucius' teachings.

 

The second is to point out that there is really no difference between Robber Chin's actions and the actions of the rulers who pass laws which allow them to do the same thing Robber Chih does.

 

AT least Robber Chih understands the Way of Tao whereas Confucius and the rulers do not.

Then we are on the same page

 

I might have been mistaken about The Yellow Emperor. Maybe it was Lao Tzu that spoke highly of him?

 

From this then, I wonder what Chuang Tzu is saying in regards to who possesses the Tao. Is Robber Chih one? Is Hong Meng (Chapter 11) one? Or is it no one? Are some just closer to their inner nature than others?

 

I must admit, I'm biased and hope to hear the latter. The thought of having any high and mighty or enlightened (in a heirarchy sense) seems very non-Tao.

 

It seems that a lot of "masters" in the modern day are Confucius in disguise. I would rather hang with Robber Chih (as long as my liver would stay in tact) hehe.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

 

I might have been mistaken about The Yellow Emperor. Maybe it was Lao Tzu that spoke highly of him?

I'm sure one of our Chinese reading members can speak to this much better than I could.

 

From this then, I wonder what Chuang Tzu is saying in regards to who possesses the Tao. Is Robber Chih one? Is Hong Meng (Chapter 11) one? Or is it no one? Are some just closer to their inner nature than others?

I think it can be said that Robber Chih understands the Way of Tao (and especially the ways of man) but has chosen a different path.

 

Are you asking of Hung Mung hopping around slapping his butt? I would say no. I see him as a self-centered person.

 

 

It seems that a lot of "masters" in the modern day are Confucius in disguise. I would rather hang with Robber Chih (as long as my liver would stay in tact) hehe.

Hey. After you have been hung you won't care who eats your liver.

 

But I would have to agree with you. My way or the highway. No room for self-expression.

 

That was one of the driving forces in my deciding to call myself an Anarchist.

 

There are 7 billion people on the planet so there must be 7 billion ways of doing something.

 

You want it done "your" way? Do it yourself.

[Rara]

I'm sure one of our Chinese reading members can speak to this much better than I could.

 

I think it can be said that Robber Chih understands the Way of Tao (and especially the ways of man) but has chosen a different path.

 

Are you asking of Hung Mung hopping around slapping his butt? I would say no. I see him as a self-centered person.

 

 

Hey. After you have been hung you won't care who eats your liver.

 

But I would have to agree with you. My way or the highway. No room for self-expression.

 

That was one of the driving forces in my deciding to call myself an Anarchist.

 

There are 7 billion people on the planet so there must be 7 billion ways of doing something.

 

You want it done "your" way? Do it yourself.

Interesting response re Robber Chih. I think there's a lot of us that can see what's going on, yet still take the easy road (whether that's robbery, materialism, corporate business, working FOR a corporate business) It's easy to talk about being awake and all that, but I see few practicing what they preach!

 

Hong Meng - well, actually I was referring to banging the drum and dismissing someone asking him about the Way. (Was it his butt? Is this a translation dispute?) I was thinking, because he was asked about it, he had the answers. Maybe I should revisit that Chapter/thread!

 

Nice joke about hanging with Robber Chih though. Touche! Lol.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Interesting response re Robber Chih. I think there's a lot of us that can see what's going on, yet still take the easy road (whether that's robbery, materialism, corporate business, working FOR a corporate business) It's easy to talk about being awake and all that, but I see few practicing what they preach!

Yes, we each go after what we think brings us happiness. And happiness will be defined differently by nearly everyone asked.

 

 

Hong Meng - well, actually I was referring to banging the drum and dismissing someone asking him about the Way. (Was it his butt? Is this a translation dispute?) I was thinking, because he was asked about it, he had the answers. Maybe I should revisit that Chapter/thread!

Yes, translation dispute only. The thing is, he had "his" answers. His answers would never fit into my life.

 

Nice joke about hanging with Robber Chih though. Touche! Lol.

I couldn't resist. Hehehe.

[Rara]

 

The thing is, he had "his" answers. His answers would never fit into my life.

 

 

That is Tao, right? Our own answers...?

 

Well, within reason. We have our own answers for our own happiness but there are general universal answers behind what people should do to keep things sweet (TTC)

[Marblehead]

That is Tao, right? Our own answers...?

Yes, that is my opinion.

Well, within reason. We have our own answers for our own happiness but there are general universal answers behind what people should do to keep things sweet (TTC)

Of course, within reason. For example, we should not be harming others just to benefit ourself.

[Stosh]

Considering that we are all subject to socialization of different sorts , it may be that Robber Chih , should really be the most relate-able character. 

He has become great at what he is, a marauder , because he understands and is responsive to the state of the world and himself , acting accordingly .

The social stigma put on him , is understood to be largely subjective opinion, he could have been a ruler , general or hero.

Confucius similarly has become considered great , accumulating for himself reputation and comfort, as Cz points out , they have commonality of sorts. 

 

If, as you say ,these folks are different from the 'ideal sage' presumably the anarchist social reformer Cz ,,

in that they do not totally represent the unmodified basic human model. It stands to reason,, then , that ,  

we really need to check and see if this un-carved block is a viable way of life.

It may have been Rara? who rhetorically posed (I paraphrase) -Who among us has not been socialized?

1)  Maybe,  we are just not all,  cut out to be mild mannered anarchist social reformers. 

2)  What is the bait so tempting that one should not consider those other examples , to be presenting the best And also realistic acme of the Way? 

 

Certainly if both the Marauder and Bureaucrat  are served by the way , without having to become .. like Cz, then the mechanism of the Way are not only approaching the state of un-carved wood , it is also the practical aspects of recognizing what the world allows and does not allow , and how it connects events... or something else ?

 

[Rara]

On 20/06/2017 at 5:26 PM, Stosh said:

 

1)  Maybe,  we are just not all,  cut out to be mild mannered anarchist social reformers. 

 

 

I think this is quite an important message throughout the Book of Zhuangzi. I believe there are other sections that talk of those imitating the Way or trying to live the life of a hermit and ultimately failing.

 

I mentioned The Big Concealment from Chapter 11 earlier in this thread and he says to Cloud Chief something along the lines of "it's too late for you". I'm starting to feel that this is a reference to saving one's soul and some (perhaps Robber Chih) just can't get there.

 

Sometimes I wonder how far gone I may be. I practice Tai Chi now and am back to wandering in nature and meditating. You know, just in case Karma is a thing Maybe my progress will be stored.

[Stosh]

Yeah, I agree, Im thinking this must indeed be an important message or consideration that one needs to infer in order to be making sense of the work. 

As I figured it , say you were a grandfather , and you wanted to pass down good stuff to your descendants , for many ages to come,, well you cant just tell everybody the same thing,, some kind of rigid rule that everyone has to follow , it wouldn't be appropriate advice for many. So the advice needs to be somewhat universal , and fit each of them kids for you to have done right by em.  The each will have their own soul or te or whatever , and being ' true to thine self ' has always been sound advice, wise in any age.