Taijiquan/Qigong and Sagehood

[Kongming]

To what extent are practices like Taijiquan, Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang related toward purely spiritual or "esoteric goals", i.e. sagehood, spiritual awakening, Buddhahood, immortality, etc.? (or what ever other name you may wish to use.) Do these practices have a conscious aim that is of a higher nature? While I doubt they can replace practices like seated meditation, neidan, mantra practice, or other practices which are more explicitly spiritual in their aim, can and do the these practices act in cohesion with the latter toward that ultimate end?

 

I ask because often when reading about qigong, neigong, internal martial arts, and so on, one hears of the energetic and health benefits, which is great since one needs health in order to accomplish spiritual goals, but are there direct spiritual benefits to these practices as well?

 

If such is the case, which I suspect it is at least to some degree, are there any good books on the topic written from that perspective that you are aware of?

 

Thanks.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Kongming

[Spotless]

Their is no doubt that Qi Gong does work toward those ends that you have brought up.

 

Traditional Qi Gong from a few centuries ago and earlier was mainly focused on exactly what you are asking and indeed it may be a faster approach.

 

Standing meditation is a quantum leap over many traditional forms of seated meditation - and I am a long term meditator who typically seats for 2-4 hours and as many as 18.

 

A great deal of old Qi Gong has yet to come to light - but it does not matter - at some point the "mere basics" are extraordinary.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Spotless

[woodcarver]

I'm very not enlightened but I'm pretty sure enlightenment, sage, or whatever are just constructs like everything else. Empty ideas to describe clearing away all of your conditioning. There are even different definitions from different people for those terms. Some say a big event takes place, others don't. Someone here said something similar to what I'm saying now and giving up those ideas of enlightenment have been extremely beneficial to me. I admit its a very entertaining idea.

 

So to be more on topic, practicing is awesome you should totally do it!

[Spotless]

Awakening and Enlightening is very real - it is hyper real.

 

On another note:

 

Qi Gong was originally an enlightenment awakening cultivation. Only for about the past two centuries has it been known more for its health benifits. And this is more true of it here in the west.

 

Many aspects of Awakening are misunderstood here in the west. Translations have used words that throw us well off base and cause even seasoned seekers to think things are not right in some of their greatest expansions.

 

One thing that does occur that is very germain to the original post is that the experience is hyper real - it is embodiment as never before. This varies from one individual to another but all agree that in Awakening you do not move to an etheral reality - you enter into the all of everything within the embodiment of your vehicle.

 

Why this is so germain to the original post is that the energy levels are often far far higher than what most who awaken are even remotely used to.

Qi Gong is cultivation within very high and powerful enrgetic levels - and it is a practice that is not in trance. The benifits of this practice as an active seeker is that it acclimates you very closely with the transition.

 

Because it is so powerful it is in many ways much much more important to seek a teacher and use prudence in your cultivation.

It is also a place to heal yourself if you have gone ary from abuse of yourself or injured yourself or have health balance problems.

 

Deep meditation practice - whether in full lotus, half lotus, sitting in a chair or standing - all of these have their place, particularly in very subtle realms but extraordinary subtlety in Qi Gong will be achieved with proper cultivation and may also result in beautiful meditative states after practice.

 

In standing and sitting meditation the energies move through your whole body at a much greater flow than in sitting ( though as the hours progress into 10 or more the energy flow is quite powerful in all of them - unless you are in a trance practice where it can be very low and often of little value).

In standing and sitting meditation (sitting on the edge of the chair) you are cultivating/practicing very clearly in your body - this is very near to the Awakened state.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Spotless

[Spotless]

As seekers we have in our minds the picture of the seated master practicing stillness.

Concurrent with this picture we have the belief that high degree subtle awareness and stillness cannot be attained in a movement practice such as Qi Gong.

 

This is quite untrue.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Spotless

[woodcarver]

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I like qi gong, it has begun to connect my body to my mind which is "enjoyable" and "real". I'm just saying that striving towards "enlightenment" FOR ME resembles striving towards "success".

[liminal_luke]

On a more mundane level, I think it´s (nearly) always important to have a balance of moving and sitting practices. The ratio may fluctuate but if there isn´t at least some of both...

 

Liminal

[PLB]

The Taoist tradition abounds in works pointing to the limits of expression. I think what you are asking for is happening at the edges where little is explained. To give one tiny example, I will quote from a bit of Sun Lu Tang's A Study of Taijiquan:

 

 

Opening and closing are natural; they alternate as appropriate to the situation. This is the same as Tai Ji Quan. The ancients were not able to demonstrate this to others or write it in books. This is the way it is. If the student is able to alternate opening and closing as well as stillness and and movement, and comes to a deep understanding of their source, the common root of every posture will be clear and one will obtain their mysterious uses.

 

Well, that clears up everything.

Edited November 17, 2014 by PLB

[Kongming]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

Spotless said:

 

Standing meditation is a quantum leap over many traditional forms of seated meditation - and I am a long term meditator who typically seats for 2-4 hours and as many as 18.

 

Can you expand on this further and why you believe this is so?

 

Beyond that, is anyone aware of any books, articles, or other material which would expound on the spiritual benefits of such practices?

 

Finally, of the variety of practices that fall under the Daoyin/Qigong/Neijia fold, which would be best for a beginner that has the most profound energetic (qi cultivating, qimai clearing, etc.) and spiritual benefits?

[Spotless]

In seated meditation it is very easy to fall off into trance. Also many teachings unwittingly teach trance and some teach it knowingly.

Their is nothing inherently wrong with trance and for certain things it is a valuable tool but overall it is more beneficial to meditate out of trance and with ones center of awareness within the body.

 

Meditation in trance can often result in physical energetic regenerative results that are about the same as sleep. This is why some people can meditate for years and it does not have much effect.

 

In standing meditation it is not as easy to be in trance. In standing meditation the entire body is involved so to speak - the legs are running energetically much more energy than in a seated position, particularly a seated position on the floor or mat and not in a chair.

Also many circuits that are somewhat closed in most seated positions are open, such as the armpit area, the knees, hands, fingers, toes and earth energy connection.

 

The standing position is also good for leg strength. Many older long term seated meditators have little leg strength.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Spotless

[ChiDragon]

To what extent are practices like Taijiquan, Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang related toward purely spiritual or "esoteric goals", i.e. sagehood, spiritual awakening, Buddhahood, immortality, etc.? (or what ever other name you may wish to use.) Do these practices have a conscious aim that is of a higher nature? While I doubt they can replace practices like seated meditation, neidan, mantra practice, or other practices which are more explicitly spiritual in their aim, can and do the these practices act in cohesion with the latter toward that ultimate end?

 

I ask because often when reading about qigong, neigong, internal martial arts, and so on, one hears of the energetic and health benefits, which is great since one needs health in order to accomplish spiritual goals, but are there direct spiritual benefits to these practices as well?

 

To me, the Taijiquan, Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang will give me the same physical and health benefits and end result. However, the spiritual aspect is straightly a personal preference. As you'd said "which is great since one needs health in order to accomplish spiritual goals." Hence, they are indirectly/directly effected the spiritual benefits. It builds up more confidence and self esteem of one individual. It did for me anyway. In addition, it was from the practice of the Tao principles(TTC) also.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

To me, i my own head its as follows:

Sagehood, immortality, enlightenment, i think its either hyperbole or bells and whistles and spinning rims. They're absolutely worth practicing without all that stuff in mind, as research methods and longevity skills.

There is no Superman in the end. The spiritual realm is a personal one, how do you measure and explain it?

Even the alchemy bit for me, you can gain wisdom of self and others from it and learn to experience and use energies (broad definition) in many different ways, but im not sure it'll grant you a get out of death free discount, or amazing magic powers. I dont believe in achievement ladders and plateaus outside of social contexts.

Anyone can learn and hone skills that have applications to unusual and remarkable effects, but i think some of the symbolic jargon turned into religious belief or packaging and salesmanship over time. Theres been a lot of snakeoil going around all along the history of mankind, a lot of promises being made, a lot of external ideas of how to validate ones own efforts and achievements have been set up for many reasons, good and bad, noble and nefarious.

 

But, in the end, im biased and arrogant and know very little about anything so its just opinions from my windbag self, i mean no harm or disrespect in saying this.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[somatech]

I definitely agree to a balance of moving and sitting practices.

 

My conclusion over time is that most of current Taijiquan, Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang practices including many well known systems today work more specifically with energy, astral and some other bodies, rather than at the highest aspects of self or specifically at the level of consciousness. Although working on lower levels may affect higher levels, many of these techniques are not a direct path to the higher levels in the same way that a direct path is. But they can still have incredible value in one's journey.

 

As far as I know there are teachers of Taoist lineage who teach both today.

 

People have been known to realise their highest self during any practice or in life generally so I would say there is no rule here. But some practices seem to focus specifically on that realisation/awakening of those higher levels and those practices are usually easier to find in other traditions.

 

Sometimes someone will need to work on both directions at different times and balance is probably the key. I see all the time the imbalances of top heavy spiritual people and bottom heavy spiritual people, including in myself.

 

Also I can't agree that standing meditation is better than sitting, I think it would depend on the person and what they want to achieve. Its not for me. There must also be a reason why sages of all traditions over time spent a lot of time 'sitting' doing a practice.

Edited November 26, 2014 by somatech

[Michael Sternbach]

Interesting books on the meditative and spiritual aspects of the internal martial arts have been written by Scott Meredith and Willard J Lamb.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Michael Sternbach