Free Will/Choice?

[Vmarco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTPpzOdzjmQ

[Marblehead]

He turned me off right at the beginning with the words "... the illusion of free will."

 

Maybe he doesn't have free will but I do.

[zerostao]

i like the terms , structure and agency. free will is limited. i can free will myself to fly all i want,

well, i have had little moments where take off might have been achieved, but some of the landings a little rough.

we have agency to act within the structure.

a heck of a lot of it probably resides in our dna

[Marblehead]

I have always admitted that our free will is limited. And individual limits vary from person to person. The more prohibitions one has in their life the less free will one has.

 

No, I can fly; even if I had the will to do so. Limits.

[Vmarco]

He turned me off right at the beginning with the words "... the illusion of free will."

 

Maybe he doesn't have free will but I do.

LOL

[iain]

We have will but it is not free.

I would agree that free will is an illusion, that "will" is little understood in Western thought; as the MRI left right panel experiment plainly shows. Our hormones make most of our decisions for us, or rather; they tip the scales and then let us decide.
The more we think we have free will, all the more we will tend towards following our desires, thus; the more we fall into highly predictable patterns.

I have no problem with hedonism; but the likely result of this mechanism upon a large community, such as the Occident, might be massive communal mood swings that are consequently reflected by the economy,
perhaps inversely.

Edited November 17, 2014 by iain

[iain]

As an experiment, I have drawn up the birth chart of Charles Whitman, as He is cited in this lecture: Given that both the event and the tumour, are reflected in his chart; my current understanding of "free will" is not at all challenged by this happening. I would hypothesise though, that the thought and actions may have created the tumour; we might well imagine a Feynman diagram in order to visualise this relatively simple concept, should it be difficult to cognate.

Edited November 17, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

We have will but it is not free.

 

True. We have to pay for it. If we do the crime we gotta do the time.

[Vmarco]

As an experiment, I have drawn up the birth chart of Charles Whitman, as He is cited in this lecture: Given that both the event and the tumour, are reflected in his chart; my current understanding of "free will" is not at all challenged by this happening.

 

For anyone to say without proof that the planets around us do not exert forces, albeit subtle, is like saying that the seasons do not affect the clothes that we wear or the foods that we crave. It would be like claiming that our moon has nothing to do with ocean’s tides or that the orbital distribution of electrons within an atom does not influence its nucleus. Viewing astrology only through the blinders of a sciential point of view, instead of through the point of view of what is being observed, is paralogical.

 

To differentiate my assessment of astrology from a relative perspective, consider Bode’s law. If the earth were one measure from the Sun, then Mars would be 1.5, the asteroid belt 2.5, Jupiter 5, and Saturn 9.5, relationships less in relative distance than the particles within the volumes of many atoms.

 

The Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung made an astrological analogy with wine. He said, “We are born at a given moment, in a given place, and like a vintage-year wine, we too have the qualities of the year, season, and time in which we were born.” To say that there is no astrological influence on our life is like saying that one bottle of wine is identical to every other bottle of wine.

[Marblehead]

That is something I do not deny the possibility of even though those things are not considerations of mine in my life.

[iain]

For anyone to say without proof that the planets around us do not exert forces, albeit subtle, is like saying that the seasons do not affect the clothes that we wear or the foods that we crave. It would be like claiming that our moon has nothing to do with ocean’s tides or that the orbital distribution of electrons within an atom does not influence its nucleus. Viewing astrology only through the blinders of a sciential point of view, instead of through the point of view of what is being observed, is paralogical.

 

...

 

Nicely stated Vmarco,

 

If I might add a thought from the perspective in which I have learned. The Planets, called graha in Sanskrit which also translates as; seizing; perceiving; or holding; grahaṇa meaning to be eclipsed but also to understand. The planets themselves do not exert a force upon us, they alter the way that light arrives in our time frame, and thus the nature of that time; simply stated, they eclipse stars and thus effect the balance of tattva and guna.

Edited November 17, 2014 by iain

[Brian]

In the "for what it's worth" category, the average gravitational pull of Jupiter on a person on Earth is roughly the same as that of a fully loaded tractor-trailer (semi, transfer truck, whatever you call it in your locale) at a distance of about 10 feet.

[soaring crane]

 

a heck of a lot of it probably resides in our dna

 

and rememeber that 90-odd % of our dna is of non-human origin. Microbes have survival instincts, and they create us to help them move around more efficiently. No, we don't have free-will.

[soaring crane]

In the "for what it's worth" category, the average gravitational pull of Jupiter on a person on Earth is roughly the same as that of a fully loaded tractor-trailer (semi, transfer truck, whatever you call it in your locale) at a distance of about 10 feet.

 

But the effect of Jupiter's huge gravitational field has in fact kept Earth, the little sister, safe from asteroids for billions of years. Without Jupiter, no Earth, no Mars, no much of anything worth speaking of.

[Brian]

 

But the effect of Jupiter's huge gravitational field has in fact kept Earth, the little sister, safe from asteroids for billions of years. Without Jupiter, no Earth, no Mars, no much of anything worth speaking of.

Oh, its influence on the solar system has been considerable! Just thought a little illustration of scale might be of interest.

 

EDIT: Jupiter's gravitational influence on an individual on Earth is roughly 25000 times greater than the gravitational influence of Mars, BTW.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Brian

[silent thunder]

free will is negligible to non-existent to me in any real way.

what I used to consider to be choice, I now recognize as a predictable response to conditions beyond my control.

[soaring crane]

Oh, its influence on the solar system has been considerable! Just thought a little illustration of scale might be of interest.

 

EDIT: Jupiter's gravitational influence on an individual on Earth is roughly 25000 times greater than the gravitational influence of Mars, BTW.

 

well, yeah, Mars is dinky. Not sure what to make of the stat ... ? Just interesting trivia or something more meaty?

[Brian]

 

well, yeah, Mars is dinky. Not sure what to make of the stat ... ? Just interesting trivia or something more meaty?

Naah, just trivia... Mostly...

 

I'm not saying the planets have no influence over individuals on Earth or that gravitation is the only significant mechanism in play but inverse-square relationships tend to wreak havoc on such ideas.

 

EDIT: Outside of the Sun's electromagnetic output, the Earth itself is the dominant player on Earth. The Moon's gravitational influence is 0.0003% of the Earth's and Jupiter's is only about 1% as strong as the Moon. No other body really comes into play at all, from a gravitational perspective.

[Spotless]

If you were able to watch this vid to the end the last three minutes were superb.

 

The roboticism of humans is underestimated by most and not over estimated by this author.

 

His clarity on the issues was excellent and however much in other interviews he may stray into terrritories outside his bounds, he did not in general stray here in this interview and talk.

 

But in the last three or so minutes he specifically talks about the Awakening state across all boards within human experience and the problem that In our many cultures this height of human experience is only able to find embrace within the religious communities.

 

Fundamentally, if you do not consider Buddhism a religion then he would be wrong but the end note of his talk was really refreshing.

 

Regarding free will he was more spot on than not - nearly 100%

Edited November 17, 2014 by Spotless

[soaring crane]

 

 

Regarding free will he was more spot on than not - nearly 100%

 

oh, ok, now I'll have to go watch it

[iain]

In the "for what it's worth" category, the average gravitational pull of Jupiter on a person on Earth is roughly the same as that of a fully loaded tractor-trailer (semi, transfer truck, whatever you call it in your locale) at a distance of about 10 feet.

 

Who said anything about Gravity?

Gravity is not used when constructing a rasi chart, time is.

[Brian]

 

Who said anything about Gravity?

Gravity is not used when constructing a rasi chart, time is.

I did -- in that post. And in a couple of subsequent ones.

 

EDIT: I didn't have any choice in the matter, though, much as I might have liked to.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Brian

[iain]

well, yeah, Mars is dinky. Not sure what to make of the stat ... ? Just interesting trivia or something more meaty?

 

Mangala is beautiful, such a lovely colour red, well worth a regular viewing.

Always invoked when starting an auspicious work in my tradition; he has a very deep significance to a yogi.

[iain]

I did -- in that post. And in a couple of subsequent ones.

I assumed in reference to charts; I am perhaps mistaken!

[iain]

Naah, just trivia... Mostly...

 

I'm not saying the planets have no influence over individuals on Earth or that gravitation is the only significant mechanism in play but inverse-square relationships tend to wreak havoc on such ideas.

 

EDIT: Outside of the Sun's electromagnetic output, the Earth itself is the dominant player on Earth. The Moon's gravitational influence is 0.0003% of the Earth's and Jupiter's is only about 1% as strong as the Moon. No other body really comes into play at all, from a gravitational perspective.

Ah yes here, nope nothing to do with Gravity; it is about time and its construct or rather its emergence. And the way the Guna interact with the 25 (some say 36) tattva.