Free Will/Choice?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i dont have a choice, i have to post to this thread, cuz free will, and stuff.



no, wait...

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

the equation is really quite simple:

Every particle of every particle is a body.
in other words, every person is a place made up of things; every thing is a place made up of people, and every place is a person made up of things, and etc.

Every body/structure has free will within the means of that body/structure. Everything and everyone has a choice - they may not be the choices we WANT to make, they might not be the choices we like, but we all HAVE choices.

Every structure is a person, every person has free will (choices) and every choice has a result and no one is beyond responsibility for the results of their choices, though many have found ways to transpose those responsibilities over time, but they cannot escape the consequences.


Free will is not to mean the freedom to do anything we will; it is not omnipotence. Omnipotence is omnipotence. if free will were omnipotence, we'd just freaking call it that instead! (DERP!)

Free will is simply the freedom to make any choice you are willing to expreience/endure. more often than not (in my experience) the choices are less experience and more endurance.

Some people are lucky that they dont have to ENDURE their choices, but then again, endurance is growth while experience is intellectualism.

topic split! lol

[Vmarco]

If you were able to watch this vid to the end the last three minutes were superb.

 

I would say,...go for the last 4 minutes,...to more fully understand the idea he is presenting.

[Marblehead]

I would say,...go for the last 4 minutes,...to more fully understand the idea he is presenting.

Okay. I will do that and see what happens. (Yes, I will try to remain open-minded but no promises.)

[Marblehead]

I did it.

 

First I will commend him on his positivity in the last few minutes.

 

However, he actually supported the thought that we have free will with his assertion that there are so many different belief systems and that all feel that theirs is the only "true" system. If there were no free will there would never be anyone denouncing the belief system they were acculturated into and that would negate any effort he is trying to make in order to form a common ground for spirituality.

[Chang]

 

 

acculturated

I like that word as it just about says it all.

[Vmarco]

I like that word as it just about says it all.

Speaking of words,...is Chang,...ch-ang,...or ch ah ng like the elephant.

[Vmarco]

I did it.

 

First I will commend him on his positivity in the last few minutes.

 

However, he actually supported the thought that we have free will with his assertion that there are so many different belief systems and that all feel that theirs is the only "true" system. If there were no free will there would never be anyone denouncing the belief system they were acculturated into and that would negate any effort he is trying to make in order to form a common ground for spirituality.

 

I can see that point,...however,...when taken deeper,...isn't the perception of free will conditioned upon accumulated beliefs,...not accumulated beliefs coming from a perception of free will?

 

Do people actually have the free will to alter their beliefs,...or are beliefs altered by a complex of predisposed events?

[Vmarco]

Sure,...I agree that the deepest of imprints or engrams can be transcended,...yet, as you mentioned,...perhaps "only really functional for someone who is already inclined to their use"

 

To toss in, what IMO is an important aspect to all this,...what if time was one thing? This suggests that evolutionary theory is not what it seems,...yes,...there would an appearance of evolution,...but it would be interlocked with future.

 

You go to see a movie,...there is a beginning which evolves towards the end,...the evolution is necessary to realize the stories climax. We could not have one of the characters be inspired with free will somewhere in the middle,....it would alter the end,...which is already set in cement,...because time is one.

[Brian]

Rather than a movie, think of this:

[Marblehead]

I can see that point,...however,...when taken deeper,...isn't the perception of free will conditioned upon accumulated beliefs,...not accumulated beliefs coming from a perception of free will?

 

Do people actually have the free will to alter their beliefs,...or are beliefs altered by a complex of predisposed events?

Yes, this goes much deeper than I have taken it.

 

I can't fairly speak to those questions of yours. My knowledge is lacking. I don't even have an opinion. How sad is that?

 

Am I allowed to guess? Flip of a coin - yes or no.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I can see that point,...however,...when taken deeper,...isn't the perception of free will conditioned upon accumulated beliefs,...not accumulated beliefs coming from a perception of free will?

 

Do people actually have the free will to alter their beliefs,...or are beliefs altered by a complex of predisposed events?

 

People generally choose to alter their beliefs based on conditions taht they believe are relevant to the refinement of their own decision-making.

 

 

Free will is not only decision making, it is cultivation as well.

[Vmarco]

 

People generally choose to alter their beliefs based on conditions taht they believe are relevant to the refinement of their own decision-making.

 

 

Free will is not only decision making, it is cultivation as well.

Do people really "choose" to alter their beliefs because conditions change,....that sounds more like following a groupthink, or anti-groupthink. There is an idea within prajnaparamita Buddhism and Taoism which could be put like this,...and experience born of belief, can only be experienced through the condition of that belief.

 

Nearly every thinker will vehemently reject that statement, as it implies, that very few have ever had a direct experience.

 

From my observations, very, very few ever have a desire to alter their beliefs,...in fact,...I've seen neuroscience evidence that suggests a quick reduction in beliefs through manipulating a persons EMF, causes an immediate physiological coma,...an idea that actually goes back thousands of years.

 

"Human kind cannot bear very much reality" T. S. Eliot

 

In the mid-90's, Gregg Braden, an accredited geophysicist described the Hopi traditions Great Purification as a "shift" that will bring a zeroing-out of the electro-dynamic fields on Earth for near 3 days. This temporary voidance of the EMF will bring great fear and panic to the majority of Earths human population, for the EMF is like a glue that holds together most of our beliefs.

Articulating the Hopi prophesy with contemporary themes, Braden likened this Great Purification/Shift to the original computers which did not have internal batteries as our PC's now have. At the Shift, when the EMF zeros-out, will be similar to an older computer "crashing", which meant, it would lose all existing information, and would have to be reprogramed. At the Shift, most people will literally "pass out" due to the exposure of being removed from identification with their beliefs. The one's who remain awake however, their Collective Consciousness, will be the reprogram when the EMF restarts. For those who passed out, when they arise, their past will be erased, and all they will know is what those who remained awake, reprogramed them to know. Under this 2012 paradigm, those who realize and dissolve their belief patterns before 2012, thus being as immune to the shock of zero Electro-dynamic field, will be the one's to set the agenda for the next cycle.

 

The original teachings mentioned in the Hopi Prophesy appear to go much further back, to the time before the Kali Yuga, when the "world turned another way". Those Original Teachings include the Ways of the Feminine,...not the patriarchal feminine of today,...but the authentic feminine, as in Mother Sky. They called it the time of the Blue Star Kachina,...the Birthing of Human Beingness.

 

There are stories of ancient temples where Initiates would be shielded from what is called electromagnetic energy; the motion of duality. Reduction in the EM field that surrounds us is said to reduce the EMF around the brain which activates and processes sensory inputs. Perception functions through an energy field. Yet consciousness is not energy. Authentic consciousness is "connected with" when we shutdown brain lobes and senses as experiments with Freethought Meditators have shown. Turning down the EMF of brain lobes uncovers the consciousness that energy has obscured.

 

Science believes that the EM field around the brain is a byproduct of that brain,...but what if brain function arises from the EM field?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

when you (free will) choose (/free will) to pursue (genuine) Truth (/genuine), your beliefs are in a nearly constant state of flux.

I want the EM fields removed, just to see and say what happened. first hand.


Anyways, i cannot disbelieve free will until i am genuinely unable to make any choices or decisions.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i chose to respond with minimal approach. should i have chosen to respond to every item and element of your previous post? why?

[IntuitiveWanderer]

How could there be free will if Will is of only one source?

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

How could there be free will if Will is of only one source?

Invalid argument.

 

There are over 7 billion individuals on this planet. Each (except a small fraction of one percent) has the capacity for free will and making choices. True, some will have more limits than others but the capacity still exists.

 

Let's not lump everyone into one package. That is not what the Ten Thousand Things is all about.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Invalid argument.

 

There are over 7 billion individuals on this planet. Each (except a small fraction of one percent) has the capacity for free will and making choices. True, some will have more limits than others but the capacity still exists.

 

Let's not lump everyone into one package. That is not what the Ten Thousand Things is all about.

 

 

How do you know that this is a planet or that there are 5 billion individuals? From hearsay.

 

lol

 

But seriously, there is only the Tao, there aren't any individuals in fact because it is all the totality manifesting here and now. Open your eyes man

 

Only consciousness exists, all else is hearsay.

 

 

Edit: Unless you would argue that all is not interdependent. In that case you need to get informed on the latest scientia. And it is quite logical that everything is interdependent, even without learning ideas.

 

For example:

 

I close my eyes and it is dark therefore I conclude that without my light my eyes cannot function...I see that the sun is the source of light, therefore I conclude that without the sun there would be no sight, I also conclude that without sight there would be no sun.

 

Or, I block my nose and mouth and notice that I cannot breath because I need air, thus I conclude that lungs cannot function without air...I find out that oxygen is formed by plants through photosynthesys

( which itself involves many other factors) therefore I conclude that without vegetation there would be no breathing, and, ultimately, without breathing there would be no vegetation.

 

In this way, we can conclude that form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Therefore there is, only consciousness.

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/mzb/oxherd.htm

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

I have to respond to this first:

How do you know that this is a planet or that there are 5 billion individuals? From hearsay.

 

lol

Because I have traveled around it two times and I counted all the people. The first time around there were 6.5 billion and the second time there were 7 billion. Apparently people keep having more and more babies.

 

And yes, by definition Earth is a planet and it is round because both times around I ended up exactly from where I started. If it were a flat Earth I would have fallen off the edge.

[silent thunder]

Yea, we really do outbreed our own hatred, ignorance and stupidity quite amazingly as a species.

Now if only our collective wisdom, compassion and foresight could catch up.

[Marblehead]

But seriously, there is only the Tao, there aren't any individuals in fact because it is all the totality manifesting here and now. Open your eyes man

 

Only consciousness exists, all else is hearsay.

You are looking at it from only one very narrow and misunderstood point of view.

 

Without all else there would be no consciousness. No, there is no such thing as Universal Consciousness not even Collective Consciousness.

 

But yes, all things are born of the Tao. No argument there.

 

If there were no individuals you would not be disagreeing with me now.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

I have to respond to this first:

Because I have traveled around it two times and I counted all the people. The first time around there were 6.5 billion and the second time there were 7 billion. Apparently people keep having more and more babies.

 

And yes, by definition Earth is a planet and it is round because both times around I ended up exactly from where I started. If it were a flat Earth I would have fallen off the edge.

 

My mother had an uncle who fell off the edge of the Earth, are you saying that my mother is a liar...

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

Edit: Unless you would argue that all is not interdependent. In that case you need to get informed on the latest scientia. And it is quite logical that everything is interdependent, even without learning ideas.

Now you should know that I am not going to accept those faulty Buddhist concepts. Of course all things are interdependent. If there were no Earth there would be no place for me to stand and if there were no chair my ass would be on the floor. But the floor would still have existed, wouldn't it?

[silent thunder]

My question would be, would the floor exist if you didn't?

 

which then makes me have to wonder about and solidify my definition of 'exist'...

[Marblehead]

In this way, we can conclude that form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Therefore there is, only consciousness.

What? You only concluded that you need air to breathe.

 

Yes, you have concluded that all things are interconnected. I have no argument with that. But only in that all things are of the same source: Tao. Once One gave birth to Two "things" arose. Yes, individual things. But still needing the support of many other things.