Free Will/Choice?

[Marblehead]

Or 5 hay bales!

Well, hey, what can I say?

[Vmarco]

 

It takes two poles to make a field.

There you go! One imaginary Black Hole does not make a field.

 

I say imaginary,...science says probable,...probable in the sense that their object-ive view, although they have seen a black hole, predicts that a black hole follows what they believe they are seeing.

 

Let me repeat,...NOBODY has ever seen a black hole. Yet, despite this lack of direct evidence, most scientists believe that Black Holes exist.

 

Physicist Laura Mersini,...like Buddhism and Taoism,...says Black Holes do not exist.

 

Quantum cosmologists Steven Hawking and Jim Hartle have articulated some profound insights through their observations. They have suggested that concepts such as the classic Big Bang model, a belief in a beginning and an end, or the Christian model of a beginning without an end are meaningless because time does not exist.

[Vmarco]

 

 

The past is gone, the now moment is here now, the future isn't here yet.

 

There are no answers, only questions.

 

Destiny is a delusion.

The past and future are the samething. As for the Present,...it is NOT here and now,...there is NO Present in time,...a Present in time is impossible.

 

You perceived now, is in the past. You cannot think, smell, see, taste, hear, touch the Present. The 6 senses can only interact with the past. And yes,...the past is gone,...or better stated, it never existed.

 

Time does not have 3 senses,… what is called past present and future … time only has past and future.

 

Past and future are one thing,...without beginning or end. Marblehead is in the middle of movie,...and thinks there was a beginning and end,...and that his interaction with a single frame or pixal of the movie, is his Now.

[Vmarco]

The position that it is just a movie playing itself out seems incongruous with the frequent ranting about particular groups of people who should be forced to change their ways/beliefs.

 

Which is it, I wonder?

 

 

(But not much, honestly -- it's more of a rhetorical question...)

Not rhetorical at all. Frequent ranting is ultimately as illusory as all of the past and future,...and equally part of the past/future.

[Marblehead]

I do watch the words you use.

Marblehead is in the middle of movie,...and thinks there was a beginning and end,...and that his interaction with a single frame or pixal of the movie, is his Now.

Nope. The end hasn't happened yet else you and I and nothing else would be here. Not even your Buddhist illusions and delusions would exist.

 

But sure, I could say that I am in a move. My role in the movie is still being written. And not only have I played out part, I have improvised a lot.

 

And I don't deny that in the most part I am responding to those things that have already happened and therefore I am living in the past, I am also the Primal Cause for many things that happen in my life and the life of others. And mainly this is because I have choices and free will.

[Vmarco]

I do watch the words you use.

Nope. The end hasn't happened yet else you and I and nothing else would be here. Not even your Buddhist illusions and delusions would exist.

 

But sure, I could say that I am in a move. My role in the movie is still being written.

 

Ah! But when have you ever viewed a movie that wasn't written yet?

 

Time is one,...one movie,...its already done,...the Tao is the Still Light of the projector,...which does not project,...projections occur in time,...the Tao is beyond time.

[Marblehead]

Ah! But when have you ever viewed a movie that wasn't written yet?

Never. And actually, doing so is an impossibility.

 

Time is one,...one movie,...its already done,...the Tao is the Still Light of the projector,...which does not project,...projections occur in time,...the Tao is beyond time.

I agree with your last phrase but none of the previous.

 

There are over 7 billion movies because there are over 7 billion people on the planet at this point in time.

 

Time is the measurement of the movement of things through space. You may not move - I do. Time and space are relevant to me.

 

Again, I do not accept the concept of destiny and especially of everything already being predetermined. Such an understanding would negate the concepts of choice and free will.

[Nungali]

:

Edited November 24, 2014 by Nungali

[dust]

I do feel and believe that I have the choice right now whether or not to believe in the freedom of my will.

 

But I can't be sure that this choice isn't really illusion, and that based on everything that's happened up to this point, the choice I make is the only one I could ever have made based on the circumstances of existence I find myself a part of.

 

I feel that perhaps it's not all that important.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

I do feel and believe that I have the choice right now whether or not to believe in the freedom of my will.

 

But I can't be sure that this choice isn't really illusion, and that based on everything that's happened up to this point, the choice I make is the only one I could ever have made based on the circumstances of existence I find myself a part of.

 

I feel that perhaps it's not all that important.

 

In order for something to happen there must be a subject and object. There is no such thing as subject and object, you are most certainly the totality manifesting itself here and now, therefore nothing happened.

 

And even if we were to ignore the context, even then the question would still arise: When did you make the conscious decision to be at this point in the way you are right now! Is the limited reasoning faculty you call you really you?? Is that artificial compartment of a few cognitive and physiological functions which were abstracted from the whole, really in control?

I can choose to drink pepsi instead of water, but I can't chose to drink or not. I can choose to take a walk instead of playing a video game, but I can't choose to not get bored. And even those choices are totally determined by unconscious patterns resultant from the specific genetic code and specific life-experience.

 

What you call I is actually an extremely superficial phenomena that worships itself in total ignorance of the infinite primordial forces which underlie it and totally determine both it and its circumstances. Existence is indivisible.

Edited December 16, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

In order for something to happen there must be a subject and object. There is no such thing as subject and object, you are most certainly the totality manifesting itself here and now, therefore nothing happened.

WoW! You and I could get into some really good disagreements if this thread gets fired up again. Hehehe.

(I am a Materialist, you know.)

[Brian]

Not rhetorical at all. Frequent ranting is ultimately as illusory as all of the past and future,...and equally part of the past/future.

I find it amusing that you not only totally missed my point but you also felt it appropriate to decide my question wasn't rhetorical.

 

[Marblehead]

I find it amusing that you not only totally missed my point but you also felt it appropriate to decide my question wasn't rhetorical.

 

Well, whenever you ask me a question I don't want to answer I will just consider it a rhetorical question from you and let it go.

 

[silent thunder]

this is beginning to remind me of an aikido match with words...

[Marblehead]

this is beginning to remind me of an aikido match with words...

Never tell anyone everything you know all at once because from that point on you will be at a disadvantage and always on the defensive.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

time and space are two different perspectives of the same one thing.

X, Y, and Z must exist simultaneously and so too are past, present, and future represented by X, Y, and Z.


also, what does any of this have to do with free will?



Well, as VM posits, all past, present, and future are "already done" but that is a misconception and is about as relevant to free will as saying all X, Y, and Z are "already done".
Free Will, however, is what you choose to do with reality that is "already done".
the quantom mumbo jumbo about 'all possibilities exist simultaneously" has more relevance on free will than time itself.

From the feel i get here, we are assuming time is linear regardless of weather it is a work in progress or a complete structure.

Time is not linear.

[Marblehead]

 

Time is not linear.

Oh My Goodness!!! Not another one!!!

 

Yes, the hands on Big Ben go around in circles. Every 12 hours it starts all over again. But this is a man made devise, not a nature made devise.

 

If there is a beginning of some thing there will be an end to that thing. It does not and can not reach a certain point and then just go around in circles.

 

All cultures established means of measuring the passage of time. Mostly initially based on the passage of the seasons. Some peoples who lived very close to the equator did not do this though because they could not observe the passage of the seasons (for them there were at most two, wet and dry).

 

But yes, what does the concept of time/space have to do with the concept of free will? Surely there is some connection.

 

All religions teach that a person has the choice of following the path of goodness or to stray onto the path of evil.

 

However, if one has no imperatives then all that is left is free will. My life is my responsibility. No one else can live my life for me nor make my choices for me.

[iain]

... All cultures established means of measuring the passage of time. Mostly initially based on the passage of the seasons. Some peoples who lived very close to the equator did not do this though because they could not observe the passage of the seasons (for them there were at most two, wet and dry).

...

 

If I might be so bold as to correct you here, your opinion seems very biased ...

living on the equator has given a different understanding of the passing of time; with 5 or 6 seasons instead of 4; it is at the poles that there are only two. It is then less of an obsession with the solar calendar, that we find nearing the inner limits of the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, consequently a greater appreciation of the finer aspects of time; that of several cycles simultaneously beating in and out of phase, rather than one big clunky clock. Though that is not to say that the clock is not extremely useful; it is just a little misleading when it comes to understanding the finer aspects of reality.

 

Time and space are our actions, thus are directly related to our apparent choices; they are inseparable. How can you have the choice between an apple and an orange if you live in the north pole in an age with no shipping or freight transport? The choice is limited in space and time desire is an illusion limited by space and time; Inuit's do not desire nor do they chose oranges or apples, they do not have knowledge of such fruit, desire and choice are thus limited by geographical position, the belief of free will is an illusion.

Edited December 19, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

If I might be so bold as to correct you here, your opinion seems very biased ...

Bold you may be. No problem. Correct me? Hehehe.

 

But then, of course, all my opinions are biased. Only pure truths stand on their own.

 

living on the equator has given a different understanding of the passing of time; with 5 or 6 seasons instead of 4; it is at the poles that there are only two.

What I stated still stands although what you said stands as well. We must consider only the North Pole though as there are nor never were any indigenous peoples at the South Pole.

 

Yes, at the North Pole there are only two seasons - darkness and light. (One cannot see the light if there is none.) Darkness is colder and light brings about the melting of ice - the time for harvesting of food for the dark season.

 

It is then less of an obsession with the solar calendar, that we find nearing the inner limits of the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, consequently a greater appreciation of the finer aspects of time; that of several cycles simultaneously beating in and out of phase, rather than one big clunky clock. Though that is not to say that the clock is not extremely useful; it is just a little misleading when it comes to understanding the finer aspects of reality.

The finer aspects of reality?

 

Yes, we measure the day, the week, the month, the year, etc.

 

Some peoples don't need that many measurements.

 

Time and space are our actions, thus are directly related to our apparent choices; they are inseparable.

No problem so far but I see rough water ahead because of your word "apparent".

 

How can you have the choice between an apple and an orange if you live in the north pole in an age with no shipping or freight transport? The choice is limited in space and time desire is an illusion limited by space and time; Inuit's do not desire nor do they chose oranges or apples, they do not have that knowledge of fruit, desire and choice are thus limited to geographical position not belief or free will.

I have stated numerous times that our free will and choices will be limited by our external environment. True that apples and oranges do not grow at the North Pole. But those people could easily have the choice of eating fish meat, whale meat (blubber mostly), or seal meat.

 

If I was born in Germany I would have learned to speak German. I would not have had a choice. But as I aged I could have made the choice to learn English and Chinese as well. (A German would rarely make the choice to learn French.)

 

But at least we are in agreement that oranges and apples do not grow at the North Pole.

[iain]

The days and thus weeks have emerged from the planetary speeds also apparent in the north and southern hemispheres; I was referring to the lunar cycles in relation to solar cycles. Days weeks years are all based upon the solar calendar; the Sun will blind you if you stare for to long. Where as the lunar cycle breathes with human nature. But you only see that which you chose to see, and unless able to retract the senses, and I do not mean dampen the emotions, rather I mean to enhance them by quieting the mind so as to hear and see them.

Language to has its roots, so the reference frame in this instance, for freedom of choice, is constrained to a subset of possible divergence, highly relative to past events; thus also relative to our family our heritage and geo-temporal position; the reference frame here is much larger and thus far more illusive or illusory; but it still exists. Thus it is not free will as it is still relative, and inherently dependant upon this apparent temporal frame of reference.

My use of "apparent" is reference to temporal appearance, that something might appear due to the apparent flow of time. It would seem to me that the factor which determines most our awareness or lack there of of this; is the size of our ego. The width and focus of our foresight and understanding. the more we focus the ego the more we belive in our own freedom; the less we are aware of the motion seen in a more open minded vision of the whole.

All is relative and we are all capable of both foresight and focus, excepting that there is a large relativistic filter put in front of our vision; which affects this vision or view greatly that of mind, giving each of us tendencies one way or the other in our sight. The more focused predatory visors are far less aware of this, where as to the herbivores it is obvious.

I learnt French because I was washed up on a French shore, I find Sanskrit to be far more interesting that Latin based languages.

Edited December 19, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

Nice response although I have no idea where you want to go with this.

 

How about "I have relative free will."?

 

BTW My ego is pretty large and strong so it can easily be said that I have large, strong blinders. (But they serve me well.)

 

Yes, I am aware of the lunar calendar some societies have used. In my coin collection I have one Korean coin that is dated from their lunar system prior to the Koreans converting to the Gregorian calendar.

 

I very much enjoy listening to the French language. I have a lot of Cajun and Zydeco music that is sung in Cajun-French.

 

Are you practicing Buddhism now? Just curious because of how you said some of the things you have said.

 

BTW Just a few minutes ago I made the choice to turn off the fish pond pumps for a short break. It was not an imperative. I could have left them running. But it is something I do almost every morning.

 

Free will and choices is a very important concept for me. I refuse to get anywhere close to nihilistic thinking.

[iain]

I am Kashmir shavite, I don't practise; I live with and in the experience of saktipata ...

I refer not to nihilistic thought but holistic thought. We have will but it is not free; it is bound by the laws of the Universe and every action is part of a flow of prior and consecutive actions including thought; The filter through which time flows to a great extent makes up our mind, this is to my mind the important concept to understand here and thus why this is then self evident.

You will be switching that pump on and off in a multitude of worlds and all of which, at a slightly different times, leading to infinite different futures. Did you chose the the one that you wanted, or simply the one that was most probable?

māyā or blinkers are quite natural and dependant upon where and when we live; I somewhat envy those who can live in their social direction. I can not, the filters through which my time flows do not allow me that luxury so easily. I am not complaining don't get me wrong; the understanding of the workings of time that this affection affords me is well worth the effort it demands.

Edited December 19, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

I am Kashmir shavite, I don't practise; I live with and in the experience of saktipata ...

 

I refer not to nihilistic thought but holistic thought.

Great! I just wanted to understand better with whom I am speaking.

 

We have will but it is not free; it is bound by the laws of the Universe and every action is part of a flow of prior and consecutive actions including thought; The filter through which time flows to a great extent makes up our mind, this is to my mind the important concept to understand here and thus why this is then self evident.

I truly have no problem with this understanding.

 

You will be switching that pump on and off in a multitude of worlds and all of which, at a slightly different times, leading to infinite different futures. Did you chose the the one that you wanted, or simply the one that was most probable?

Again I agree and the question is a fair one. The answer though, really doesn't matter too much. For a course of action to be probable we must have considered other alternatives. That means we made a choice.

 

māyā or blinkers are quite natural and dependant upon where and when we live; I somewhat envy those who can live in their social direction. I can not, the filters through which my time flows do not allow me that luxury so easily. I am not complaining don't get me wrong; the understanding of the workings of time that this affection affords me is well worth the effort it demands.

Beautifully said and I accept it as your truth at this point in time. But things change. We can try to make things better for ourselves. But what is the right thing to do in order to accomplish this? Again, choices.

 

But I promise you, the more we look inside to find our true essences the better we will be able to make decisions that will lead to this inner peace.

[iain]

Hello Marblehead,

I fully understand your perspective, and totally agree with you that; you think that you have free will within the limits of your own domain and from your current and past recollected experience.

Which is a perfectly rational and valid perspective.

Edited December 19, 2014 by iain

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I am Kashmir shavite, I don't practise; I live with and in the experience of saktipata ...

 

I refer not to nihilistic thought but holistic thought. We have will but it is not free; it is bound by the laws of the Universe and every action is part of a flow of prior and consecutive actions including thought; The filter through which time flows to a great extent makes up our mind, this is to my mind the important concept to understand here and thus why this is then self evident.

 

You will be switching that pump on and off in a multitude of worlds and all of which, at a slightly different times, leading to infinite different futures. Did you chose the the one that you wanted, or simply the one that was most probable?

 

māyā or blinkers are quite natural and dependant upon where and when we live; I somewhat envy those who can live in their social direction. I can not, the filters through which my time flows do not allow me that luxury so easily. I am not complaining don't get me wrong; the understanding of the workings of time that this affection affords me is well worth the effort it demands.

 

You have no will if not free will.

You seem to be confusing absolute will with free will.

Absolute will is to manifest your choices regardless of the laws of the universe.

Free will is the pursue your choices within those same laws - but without the ability to outright defy them.

 

We use our free wills in a civil environment to create the illusion of defiance against the laws of the universe; we build machines to think for us, vehicles to travel for us, and have flown and sent man to the moon. ALL within the laws of the universe...!!!

 

And it has been our collective choices that create these events and illusions. For too long, mankind has been asleep within their subconsciousness. Consciously half-awake, subconsciously asleep, still not fully aware of the collective superconscious, still unaware of our own subconscious awareness of all-things, and only aware "enough" of our conscious mind so as to enslave it to mathematical equations and 9-5 obedience for 40-60 years of our lives.

 

We have the choice to live that way or to resist the tsunami of ignorance.

 

I've always chosen never to ride teh wave of human affairs.

 

Do i have the free will to make that choice?

I have to beleive so, as i have committed myself to that choice for so long.

Could i ever be convinced to reevaluate this choice?

I wonder. COULD I?

Could i willingly choose to forego my awareness to join the ranks of the tsunami of ignorance?

 

I dont believe it's a choice; once exposed to an idea or a set of (accepted) facts, it becomes a part of you as much as your own arm or fingers, and your decisions add to their orbits this new idea or set of facts.

 

Given the base of "accepted facts" we are exposed to at early ages in "developed & civilized" countries, our free will enters into a structured and predictable paradigm.

The choices we make are proportional to the facts we accept. This is probability.

 

But no matter how predictable the probability of the willpower of the masses, the potential of free will in each individual is incalculable and chaotic.

 

I never chose to stop picking my nose in spite of overwhelming insistance of peers that i do.

Choice.

Comfort over social acceptance.

 

We each weigh the consequences of our actions uniquely; one man's trash is another man's treasure. This could not be so without free will. Moreover the diversity of will that can come only through free choice.

 

 

Will alone is an equation dealing with tolerance levels regarding the choices available. Comparisons and a decision based on the accepted results of said comparisons.

 

Free choice is free will.

 

Absolute will is to defy the available choices and manifest the desired result.

 

 

We always have a choice, regardless of how beneficient our choices wind up being, it is our free will to make those choices.

 

We do not have absolute will. We cannot choose apples over oranges when all we have is blubber. but we can choose to starve over eating the blubber.