Free Will/Choice?

[iain]

Hello Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan,

The freer that our will appears to us, the tighter the knot we tie in our future; perhaps not for this time around; we pick this up from where we left off in our next generation/incarnation, our next breath depends upon how we take this one. Life ebbs and flows, should we do not flow with it then there is turbulence, this is not free will it is a dynamic in a dynamic system. The beating heart of the universe reacts to the way that we breath, our will is simply that; how we breath; Relating to a heart that is much more profound than the pump in our physical body; This heart beat can be felt.

So where then lays the confusion and where lays freedom; In knowledge of this heart, or in the ignorance of its existence that allows for complete freedom?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We have the free will, the choice, as to weather or not we float along, sink down, or swim against the universe. Each has its own dynamics, but we are not deprived the choice.

We ALSO have the free will to 'get out of the water' but that's basically suicide.

Im not sure what your position is, weather you're calling free will a farce or illusion, or if you believe we have the capacity to pick our choices?

[iain]

Suicide is no escape if you believe in reincarnation; to me reincarnation is strongly implied by the simple study of astronomy and time ...
Free will is to my mind, a temporal illusion; the depth of which is dependant upon ones spiritual elevation or their spiritual IQ if you will humor me the notion, as I have previously mentioned, we have will, but it is not free.
The will of highly elevated souls is a formidable force indeed, stronger than that of most, but that will is not free.

Yes, we have choices. The wiser we are the further we see the ramifications of those choices. The realised soul sees instant effects. The spiritual infant may require many more lifetimes before even getting a glimpse of such; depending upon how he or she live their life.

I believe that we all do in the end.

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[silent thunder]

what most call choice, to me is an one action expressed, from a few (sometimes very few, even only one) options stemming from conditioned response to stimuli.

[iain]

Hello silent thunder,

what most call choice, to me is an one action expressed, from a few (sometimes very few, even only one) options stemming from conditioned response to stimuli.

I do agree, but rather than an action at a distance, between one person and a resultant or consequent inevitable future; I see this is a field; a web of interacting interrelated effects involving multiple sized infinities in its definition and I think multidimensional in nature; which is why there are these reflections, and an inherent predictability, which can be found and observed in the most curious and wonderful of places; I-Ching and Tarot cards aside or the coin toss behind the barnsley fern.

The solar system and cosmos being the obvious, but also in the microscopic multidimensional scale of DNA. In all honesty, it amazes me that this is not more immediately recognised as inevitable; in this age of relatively free, scientific exploration and expression.

I guess we are just all to immersed in our telephones, communications and work; to notice such a thing as the nature of reality...

 

One thing is certain, those who observe our communications from a far, are now convinced of our inherent predictability.

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[silent thunder]

I can really get behind the field imagery.

My awareness seems to me, a field, shaped much like my avatar picture, a toroidal sphere.

[iain]

Fields are an important aspect of modern math and modern physics, old hat to those who study satya sanAtana dharma and this field is discussed in the bhagavad gita; Biologists and Chemists seem to be a little slower in catching up with the times; but then they are rather more used to naming and grouping things ...

A toroidal sphere may exist as such in isolation; but I think a field is a better description for a collection of interacting probabilities. Rather than one toroidal sphere which is as the magnetosphere is to the Earth; I think of this in interaction, resembling the fractal boundary observed in the orientation of particles in molten iron, as it becomes magnetised; in the process of its magnetisation.
Of course within the Toroidal sphere that is the Earths magnetosphere, molten iron is thought to be found at the Earths core and its orientation is alway changing due to hypothesised rotation..

No man is an island, as they say.

Edited January 3, 2015 by iain

[silent thunder]

Yea, it's been interesting to watch Physics in particular, describing things the Taoists and Tibetans have been saying for centuries. Reinforces the concept that we all come from source, so no matter which direction you take, you'll eventually find common ground.

 

I like this particular animation of the tao symbol, incorporating toroidal flow.

Something on a rudimentary level pictures my overall essence as something like this... it's linked to the simultaneous compression and expansion that seems to coincide with how my awareness incorporates and disseminates sensations, information and energy.

 

 

 

[iain]

A torus is a good example of the blending of polarities in an isolated state, in 3 dimensions and as such it is a good visual aid; now what happens to the torus if you add a 4th dimension, and a 5th etc ...

 

Who said that math is boring?

 

 

 

 

Now the fun starts when we picture the moon passing though the magnetic tail and picking up a charge it's self.

[Marblehead]

 

Now the fun starts when we picture the moon passing though the magnetic tail and picking up a charge it's self.

Yeah, the moon catches hell when it is on the sun side of earth during a solar storm.

 

 

Note: The moon has no choice - no free will.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Marblehead

[iain]

Hello Marblehead,

I am not certain that I understand your reasoning or your point here; would you mind expanding upon that just a little for me?

The relevance of the moon's cycle upon the Earth is very clear to me, especially when the nodes are implied; but I am not certain as to how Her lack of a magnetic field is relevant to the question at hand; Perhaps you could enlighten me from this doubt?

note: We can rest assured that the moon is deluded about no things; She gathers a large crowd of admirers though, none the less; perhaps due to her natural charisma; even the oysters applaud her presence. If She has no free will, then I must conclude this be due to her relative moments; if Gravity does not act at a distance, how can we be certain that She has no desire?

Edited January 4, 2015 by iain

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I am not certain that I understand your reasoning or your point here; would you mind expanding upon that just a little for me?

Sure, I will expand but I'm not sure it will help much.

 

The relevance of the moon's cycle upon the Earth is very clear to me, especially when the nodes are implied; but I am not certain as to how Her lack of a magnetic field is relevant to the question at hand; Perhaps you could enlighten me from this doubt?

Yes, the moon plays a very important part to, shall I say?, all life on Earth. It has been theorized that if we did not have our moon, at its present size, and its present distance, life would not have evolved on Earth.

 

But then, the moon has no life of its own. An irony, I would suggest. Perhaps we could compare the moon with Tao. It gives life but has none of its own.

 

And the moon follows its Tzujan (nature) without fail. There is no other choice for it. We humans and some other species are not "bound" to our Tzujan. We can act contrary to how we truly feel we should act.

 

And yes, the lack of a magnetic field is what prevents it from being able to support life. Mars became that way. It is perhaps possible that Mars did have life at one time when it still had its magnetic field. But its inner core solidified and it now has almost no magnetic field to protect itself. The atmosphere was blown off and the waters evaporated. Mars had no choice as to what it would become. No free will.

 

note: We can rest assured that the moon is deluded about no things; She gathers a large crowd of admirers though, none the less; perhaps due to her natural charisma; even the oysters applaud her presence. If She has no free will, then I must conclude this be due to her relative moments; if Gravity does not act at a distance, how can we be certain that She has no desire?

I do not attribute consciousness to the moon or any other non-"living" thing. It is my understanding that consciousness is required in order for free will and choices to be available for a thing. And yes, I do hold that plants have consciousness to a certain degree - therefore they have free will and choices to that same degree.

 

But then, even we humans have limits to our choices and free will based upon what we have been taught and the environment we live in.

 

And no, I don't know if I have just said anything.

[iain]

Thank you for your clarification Marblehead,

Here are a few further thoughts that you have inspired in me; you can take my response as proof of your own existence and that of the existence of your words in the previous post.

What is the moon to a shellfish; and does the shellfish have free will? It does after all close when touched. We can act contrary to nature as you say, but to the detriment of our own future generations, so this behavior will be dealt with by mother nature through evolution; thus our own extinction from a particular future is an artifact of our own intelligence, an intelligence that leads us to believe that we have free will. We have evolved such because we are not particularly good at anything else. The question to my mind is; How does this affect our perception of self in the present, and consequently how this perception, if indeed an illusion, could quite reasonably cause us an ailment in us tomorrow; thus our will will have caused us a misdeed, and is therefore not free. The side note that these events are also indicated in an astrological interpretation of the shape of things at birth, is its self a whole other dimension of the same. Which to my mind compounds the issue at hand.

It all comes down to a clever illusion of time, add to this the further illusion of money and we have differed all responsibility for our own actions; very clever indeed ... Or is it? ... on whose deeds are we dining out?

Edited January 4, 2015 by iain

[Marblehead]

It all comes down to a clever illusion of time, add to this the further illusion of money and we have differed all responsibility for our own actions; very clever indeed ... Or is it? ... on whose deeds are we dining out?

Yes, I know that the argument against free will and choices is a very valid argument.

 

The most important reason I argue in favor of free will is that it does not allow for nihilism.

 

I have no idea what tomorrow will bring but I will do the best I can today in order for tomorrow to be as peaceful as possible, especially for myself.

[iain]

Oh nihilism is a terrible misunderstanding of life; I could not agree with you more, though I don't think that hiding things is a good way of avoiding outcomes, it tends to rather provoke the outcome feared making it manifest.
Where as letting off steam stops the pot from boiling over (Boyles law I wonder if that is coincidence).
I love the Indian system for its ability to direct practitioners through and beyond that state of mind, though obviously some do get stuck in it; This is all on the way to an eventual understanding Tao; from what I gather. Karma does not allow for nihilism at all; we pay for every act we make and receive in kind; it can not be clearer, to my mind. We are only headed towards a subset of futures that our present and past allow for, the wisman is aware of this and thus better able to navigate any rapids on the way; the illusion of free will, would cite rapids as being crisis and could be said to provoke delusions, which can then be exploited. I could site a doctrine that promotes free will as being a prime example of this but shall refrain from such as it may offend the less evolved occidental members.

[Yasjua]

This has probably been stated, but there are a variety of contradictory perspectives on this issue and many of them are simultaneously correct. In my conception of consciousness, reality and the laws or principles that govern our being are modified according to the resonance of the consciousness. There are states of being that are far outside the scope of the ordinary and in some of them the free agent has been transcended, and in others the free agent has been swallowed into some dark psychological and chemical processes. All models are simplifications and necessarily limited, but in this model free will definitely exists and is a necessary part of evolution. For the most part, I think human behavior is guided by nature, but not governed by it. We have proclivities of behavior that are based on natural evolution. If I were raised in the woods and never given sexual education, and met a woodland lady in my adult years, we would probably put 2 and 2 together due to how we're wired to understand and perceive reality. There is a part of us that is animal and it's a much larger part of us than we generally acknowledge. Getting in touch with this animal self is incredibly empowering as our animal self is simply way better at doing a lot of things, like having sex, shaking off a cold, dancing, traversing natural landscapes and appreciating rhythmic music, among other things. Our agency comes in as these archetypes of nature's governance resonates in our uniquely configured nervous systems. From a certain perspective, it could be said that the nervous system and the brain do everything, and that there is no person, but that's a state of consciousness to be experienced, not an absolute truth to be stated intellectually. For most people, I assume, myself included, agency blends artfully into the tendencies of the subconscious mind and body.

[Marblehead]

Oh nihilism is a terrible misunderstanding of life; I could not agree with you more, though I don't think that hiding things is a good way of avoiding outcomes, it tends to rather provoke the outcome feared making it manifest.

Where as letting off steam stops the pot from boiling over (Boyles law I wonder if that is coincidence).

I love the Indian system for its ability to direct practitioners through and beyond that state of mind, though obviously some do get stuck in it; This is all on the way to an eventual understanding Tao; from what I gather. Karma does not allow for nihilism at all; we pay for every act we make and receive in kind; it can not be clearer, to my mind. We are only headed towards a subset of futures that our present and past allow for, the wisman is aware of this and thus better able to navigate any rapids on the way; the illusion of free will, would cite rapids as being crisis and could be said to provoke delusions, which can then be exploited. I could site a doctrine that promotes free will as being a prime example of this but shall refrain from such as it may offend the less evolved occidental members.

Hehehe. I never had any thoughts of putting you in a basket but you are now in the Buddhist Basket.

 

I agree with you regarding nihilism.

 

I don't recall mentioning hiding things but you did above and I do agree with you thought on the concept.

 

Yeah, nice pun with the boiling water.

 

Karma and reincarnation are not concepts I hold to. But yes, I can see where the two concepts could be used as argument against nihilism.

 

But then you say "illusion of free will" after suggesting that the belief in Karma will cause us to make better choices in life. You can't have it both ways. If we have choices we have free will.

 

But I do agree that having illusions and delusions will allow others to take advantage of us.

[iain]

Hello Yasjua,

This has probably been stated, but there are a variety of contradictory perspectives on this issue and ...

 

Though I do agree with you in what you say; I feel that I must add some thought here; that some models are far more advanced than others; that that which we are calling a model, is also the underlying fabric of the society that created it, inseparable in many ways from it, it is of society's creation. As such it is no obvious matter to see that we are still acting, or behaving, under ones own societies limited channels of thought and behaviour; all whilst believing that we are freed from it.
Now, in regards to the simplification and limitation of any model, I shall have to disagree; due to the accuracy of the model that I am currently studying, that its foundations inverse the very foundation of my own childhood teachings, which can be admittedly a difficult thing to manage, though the more I learn the more I see how my own culture is absorbing the wisdom of all others inadvertantly all whilst consuming them literally; during which the propagators of which chant the mantra of "free will! free trade" as if it were a subtil war cry. Should one conscious of such, watch on or act; if those crying "free will" are oblivious to the inadvertent cause, those of their unrecognised unreconciled subconscious beliefs and actions; driven by karmen? Surely, it is the culture who teaches its people to be aware of the subconscious before and whilst acting, is far superior in the nature of its thought than the culture who teaches to follow your desire and fight any who stand in your way.
Yasjua, on average more Men are borne than Women; who is it then that you are you most likely to meet in the forest and how will you act? You best not hesitate here, else you end up someone elses dinner; if you are daydreaming about bedding Women this will undoubtedly be detected by your foes... Incidentally, there have been known, Women who estimate the worth of a prospective partner upon his ability to kill other Men; the head is required as a proof.

Edited January 5, 2015 by iain

[iain]

Hehehe. I never had any thoughts of putting you in a basket but you are now in the Buddhist Basket.

 

I agree with you regarding nihilism.

 

I don't recall mentioning hiding things but you did above and I do agree with you thought on the concept.

 

Yeah, nice pun with the boiling water.

 

Karma and reincarnation are not concepts I hold to. But yes, I can see where the two concepts could be used as argument against nihilism.

 

But then you say "illusion of free will" after suggesting that the belief in Karma will cause us to make better choices in life. You can't have it both ways. If we have choices we have free will.

 

But I do agree that having illusions and delusions will allow others to take advantage of us.

 

If you feel the need for a label; Kashmir Shavit is my philosophical system, grounded in experience of God Consciousness for an understanding of the fabric of reality. I am currently studying matrika chakra with my guru. I do have a strong affinity with the schools of thought that explain the veda, as satya sanAtana dharma is an obvious root to strive for in ones understanding gleaned in God consciousness.

 

I never used to believe in karmen, though ones perspective changes with knowledge and time, as we grow. We can not possibly judge dharma artha karma and moksha; otherwise said, the dimensions of our will; without first understanding reincarnation; the subject is senseless without. Thus knowledge is inextricably linked to the appearance of causality, or lack there of. Should it be that you agree with me, that illusions and delusions are the fabric of sandcastles, you may also then agree that knowledge of the system by which these are manifest is vital to a stable social structure; implying that the notion of free will is inherently unstable; no matter how great it is for rallying armies.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2015 by iain

[Marblehead]

I just like to know a little more about those with whom I am having a more in-dept discussion so that I can understand why they say certain things.

Should it be that you agree with me, that illusions and delusions are the fabric of sandcastles, you may also then agree that knowledge of the system by which these are manifest is vital to a stable social structure; implying that the notion of free will is inherently unstable; no matter how great it is for rallying armies.

I think that we do have agreement with this concept. Our perspective regarding free will may differ but the reality of it will differ between individuals.

 

However, I do always speak of eliminating illusions and delusions from our life. How one does that will vary as well.

[iain]

Yes you have mentioned your desire to understand me better; believe to have expressed myself very openly in all the communications that we have had as yet on this forum; I have even offered some very deep information as to my own background and consequent reasons for my philosophy's.

Eliminating illusion from our life is a tricky thing, especially if the illusion is held steady by the mass delusion of the society in which you live ...
Being balanced in a social structure that is on a collision course; is no balance to have at all, it is an illusion of security held steady by fear of change but time flows and errodes.
Given the current state of our ecology and economic system; any sane person should be completely unhinged right now.
Do those who detach from the norm have free will in insanity; or are they perhaps behaving as part of a very natural epigenetic function, that is in essence, natures cure for our mass delusion?
Rather like crabs that spiral backwards into the sand before a storm, is this free will or a survival instinct? I am quite amazed that no mention has been made of the depth of the connection between the murders from the clock tower, the brain tumor and its being visible in a Jyotish chart; from way back at the start of this thread; we do, it would seem, see only that which we want to see, and it would appear to me that the greatest illusion is in not seeing certain things at all. Perhaps as Yasjua has wisely said; this is related to consciousness; I like to think due to the resolution of our perception, the frequency of our thought. To some extent we have little free will in this matter; some are born able to hear and see much subtler nuances than others, though perhaps this is also somewhat the result of training through meditation. I mention this though because we tend to assume that everyone's perception is the same as our own, the very balance of this perception emanating from our different sensory organs, the balance of which can change, to great extent, everything that we perceive; This directly affects all of our choices. To be ignorant of this is to have little conscious awareness of the majority of our sensual inputs, thus is to be immersed in our own allusions, as we project blindly, yet very assuredly outwards.

To my mind; in order to understand what will is we need spiritual training or experience, experience that kills many; to think that will is free is an indoctrination.
The donkey thinks that the carrot at the end of the stick is free; which is why he pursues it so relentlessly.

Edited January 6, 2015 by iain

[Marblehead]

A number of interesting thoughts in there. I can't really disagree with any of them.

 

I sometimes speak of Nietzsche and his "herd mentality". The members of the herd think they have free will, they have chosen to remain with the herd for companionship and security.

 

The crab is following its instincts. Likely too the members of the herd are following their instincts as well. Is this free will? Likely not.

 

I rarely talk about balance but rather speak to the concept of "harmony". Harmony can be had even without free will. We simply adjust to external forces. But I doubt there would be inner harmony for those who live their life in such a manner.

 

I have had no training but I have a lot of experience. (And I don't chase after anyone's carrot. Hehehe.)

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yeah, the moon catches hell when it is on the sun side of earth during a solar storm.

 

 

Note: The moon has no choice - no free will.

 

All bodies have free will to make choices within the limitations of their physiology; be they fleas or planets, their physiology determines the extent of choices they are CAPABLE OF making. The moon is not exempt from free will; only those who disregard free will are exempt from free will (do unto others and such).

 

 

 

That being said, the moon's choices are incomprehensible to a human because we cannot experience the moon from its own perspective; we can at best imagine what it would be like if a human being tdared conscious places with the moon and how we might imagine we would feel orbiting Earth, and limited to the functions of the moon itself.

 

Personally, i'd imagine the moon's extent of freedom would be magnetic... and im not even sure what that would imply

 

But the gigantic body orbiting the Earth is still a body and still has, within its physiological limitations, an expression of Free Will.

 

 

If it is best fit to the health of a celestial body to be in an orbit, for its own health, why would the moon (or any body) choose to stop orbiting Earth (or whatever parent body it already orbits; sun, jupiter, etc.)?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan

[Marblehead]

That being said, ...

 

Yeah, well, I'm sure you already knew that I would disagree with you. Hehehe.

 

But you go ahead and personify the moon and give it a free will if that is truly your wish.

 

I'm just glad it didn't decide to eat the astronauts when they were walking around on it.

 

For an object to have free will it must first have a will. But then, maybe you are right, the moon has chosen to be rotating around Earth. Venus and Mars would be rather boring.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

again: the limitations of the body define the complexity of choices and the extent at which free will and thought can be expressed.


Omniversiality; the entirety of all of eternity and the infinite extrapolations and variations: It is 1-D

from one came two, from two came three, and from three came the ten thousand things; know the products but abide by their source.


I am not personifying anything, but rather RE-personifying the DE-personified universe.
Instinct is often more appropriate than choice, and i did not choose to personify or de-personify the universe; i merely embraced the natural instinct to recognize all nouns as persons.