Free Will/Choice?

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Now you should know that I am not going to accept those faulty Buddhist concepts. Of course all things are interdependent. If there were no Earth there would be no place for me to stand and if there were no chair my ass would be on the floor. But the floor would still have existed, wouldn't it?

 

If there would have been no earth then this would have not been. The fluctuating pattern that you call your self...would have not existed if anything would have been diferent than it is, since that would have implied different initial conditions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory#Sensitivity_to_initial_conditions

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[IntuitiveWanderer]

My question would be, would the floor exist if you didn't?

 

which then makes me have to wonder about and solidify my definition of 'exist'...

It is a false superstition to believe that there is such a thing as objective consciousness, is it not?

[Marblehead]

Yea, we really do outbreed our own hatred, ignorance and stupidity quite amazingly as a species.

Now if only our collective wisdom, compassion and foresight could catch up.

If we somehow are able to accumulate all the wisdom, common sense, and ignorance into one collective I wouldn't even want to be a part of the collective. Dumb to the max.

[Marblehead]

My mother had an uncle who fell off the edge of the Earth, are you saying that my mother is a liar...

I would be willing to bet that you misunderstood what she said. She said her uncle fell off the wagon because he was so freakin' drunk.

[Marblehead]

My question would be, would the floor exist if you didn't?

 

which then makes me have to wonder about and solidify my definition of 'exist'...

Well, we can test that question. You come to my place, attempt to have a seat in my chair and I will pull it out just as you can no longer prevent yourself from going downward because gravity has a hold on you. After you get up you can let me know if the floor exists and how hard it is.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Marblehead

[IntuitiveWanderer]

I would be willing to bet that you misunderstood what she said. She said her uncle fell off the wagon because he was so freakin' drunk.

 

Your argument is overwhelming, I surrender..

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

If there would have been no earth then this would have not been. The fluctuating pattern that you call your self...would have not existed if anything would have been diferent than it is, since that would have implied different initial conditions.

That is not the point we are arguing. If there were no Earth there would be no you or me and no one would be talking.

 

I don't fluctuate! Yes, I am constantly changing but that is true of everything and every non-thing within the bounds of Tao. Tao is dynamic.

 

I have often said that everything is, at any given moment in time, exactly as it should be. It cannot be otherwise.

[Marblehead]

It is a false superstition to believe that there is such a thing as objective consciousness, is it not?

WoW! Something I agree with!!!!!

[Marblehead]

Your argument is overwhelming, I surrender..

Never surrender! Besides, I am enjoying this.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

That is not the point we are arguing. If there were no Earth there would be no you or me and no one would be talking.

 

I don't fluctuate! Yes, I am constantly changing but that is true of everything and every non-thing within the bounds of Tao. Tao is dynamic.

 

I have often said that everything is, at any given moment in time, exactly as it should be. It cannot be otherwise.

 

If everything is constantly changing then there is only change and no object. Emptiness is form and from is emptiness.

 

Edit: Since matter does not exist, the Tao cannot be material.

 

To review why matter does not exist:

 

1. because it has no independent existence.

 

2. because it is always becoming but never is.

 

You think* that there is solidity but that is only because you fluctuate at a slow rate, matter only seems to be, but in fact it never is.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

If everything is constantly changing then there is only change and no object. Emptiness is form and from is emptiness.

You almost got it right. Hehehe.

 

How many times have I been in this "emptiness" discussion? Too many to count.

 

Yes, there are objects. How could it change if it were not some thing or some non-thing?

 

Emptiness is emptiness and form is form. Emptiness is not really empty anyhow unless you create a perfect vacuum.

[Marblehead]

Edit: Since mater does not exist, the Tao cannot be material.

And from where did you get this weird idea that matter does not exist? Are you sitting in a chair or levitating? And what is this "you" I am speaking of. And please, please, don't tell me that you don't exist because then I would be talking with myself and justly going crazy.

[silent thunder]

Well, we can test that question. You come to my place, attempt to have a seat in my chair and I will pull it out just as you can no longer prevent yourself from going downward because gravity has a hold on you. After you get up you can let me know if the floor exists and how hard it is.

 

If I were there then yes, I'd say that definitely yes, I'd feel the floor and it would be hard to me, based on my experience.

 

But what if I weren't there? Is there a floor, if there is no me? (that's not a buddhist slanted question, just a raw query based on my reaction). I love these kinds of conversations, they never get tiring for me. I just love having these things to chew on.

 

My question would be, would the floor exist if you didn't?

 

which then makes me have to wonder about and solidify my definition of 'exist'...

[IntuitiveWanderer]

And from where did you get this weird idea that matter does not exist? Are you sitting in a chair or levitating? And what is this "you" I am speaking of. And please, please, don't tell me that you don't exist because then I would be talking with myself and justly going crazy.

 

 

If you were to lose all your ability to have sensory experience and your memory would be wiped clean, would you still exist?

 

Existence IS consciousness, consciousness is the only self-subsistent thing there is. And if there is only consciousness then the material world is a manifestation of it, therefore there is no such thing as matter.

 

Edit: The question may seem kind of strange because some could argue that if I see experience him as existing, then he exists. But just because I sense his presence does not mean that he exists, he would be an object and not a subject. Living beings are not objects and objects are simply phenomena of consciousness, there is no way of telling the difference between a realistic hallucination and a real sight. If I were to have a "full spectrum" hallucination, then it would exist, as a manifestation of consciousness.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i'm using my free will to get back on topic, but the overwhelming inertia of this thread is preventing my success.


Such is the nature of probability and potentiality.

[Marblehead]

If I were there then yes, I'd say that definitely yes, I'd feel the floor and it would be hard to me, based on my experience.

 

But what if I weren't there? Is there a floor, if there is no me? (that's not a buddhist slanted question, just a raw query based on my reaction). I love these kinds of conversations, they never get tiring for me. I just love having these things to chew on.

For you, there may or may not be a floor in my house that my chair is sitting on. Without being able to observe it yourself you need to use a little common sense. (Wasn't it Mark Twain who said that common sense isn't as common as some suggest it to be?)

 

So if you grant that I am at home in my house we would ask: Do most houses in America have constructed floors? The answer would naturally be yes based on what we have observed in the past and what we have read from others.

 

Conclusion: Marblehead surely has a constructed floor in his house. And because the floor exists for Marblehead it would be here when you arrived as well. And it would still be here even if you got lost in space and never arrived.

 

 

Yes, these kinds of discussions require us to use logic in our thoughts before typing the words on the keyboard. And yes, my keyboard exists. I suppose the one you are using exists as well.

[Marblehead]

i'm using my free will to get back on topic, but the overwhelming inertia of this thread is preventing my success.

 

 

Such is the nature of probability and potentiality.

Strange. I didn't even notice you were making that attempt.

 

Ah! Free will and choices. I have the free will to get back on topic. I have not yet made that choice.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

For you, there may or may not be a floor in my house that my chair is sitting on. Without being able to observe it yourself you need to use a little common sense. (Wasn't it Mark Twain who said that common sense isn't as common as some suggest it to be?)

 

So if you grant that I am at home in my house we would ask: Do most houses in America have constructed floors? The answer would naturally be yes based on what we have observed in the past and what we have read from others.

 

Conclusion: Marblehead surely has a constructed floor in his house. And because the floor exists for Marblehead it would be here when you arrived as well. And it would still be here even if you got lost in space and never arrived.

 

 

Yes, these kinds of discussions require us to use logic in our thoughts before typing the words on the keyboard. And yes, my keyboard exists. I suppose the one you are using exists as well.

 

If every conscious being in the universe would cease to exist, would there still be a universe? Or, to put it more bluntly, is experience/consciousness absolutely necesary for existence?

 

And if consciousness is necessary for existence, then it cannot come from matter since there would be no matter without consciousness. Therefore we must conclude that there is in fact objective consciousness. Or actually which is not objective, because that would require subjectivity. It is rather, absolute consciousness beyond duality.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

If you were to lose all your ability to have sensory experience and your memory would be wiped clean, would you still exist?

Yes. Others would still be able to see me.

 

Existence IS consciousness, consciousness is the only self-subsistent thing there is. And if there is only consciousness then the material world is a manifestation of it, therefore there is no such thing as matter.

Consciousness requires a brain. It has never been otherwise.

 

Prior to 3.5 billion years ago there was no life on this planet. Therefore, on this planet there was no consciousness.

 

Edit: The question may seem kind of strange because some could argue that if I see experience him as existing, then he exists. But just because I sense his presence does not mean that he exists, he would be an object and not a subject. Living beings are not objects and objects are simply phenomena of consciousness, there is no way of telling the difference between a realistic hallucination and a real sight. If I were to have a "full spectrum" hallucination, then it would exist, as a manifestation of consciousness.

So Okay. You don't exist. But I damn sure do.

 

Here you are playing with what the mind plays with. Illusions and delusions. Yes, you can recall a memory of a person and this memory is so strong that you "sense" the presence of that person. But this is only your mind playing games. The person isn't really there.

 

Actually, he is a subject, not an object. Subjectively you felt his presence. All the other people aroud you at the time never felt his presence and therefore he was not there.

 

Yes, some of our illusions and delusions can be so strong that they seem totally real to us. But the person next to you is aware of nothing because the illusion or delusion does not exist for them.

 

Example: If you walked into a tree and got a bloody nose and you told me about it and I said that the tre does not exist and you challenge me to walk in a particular direction where the tree is, I walk and get a bloody nose as well. However, if I walk and walk directly through where the tree is supposed to be and nothing happened then I would likely assume that you got drunk and some guy punched you on your nose and bloodied it.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Yes. Others would still be able to see me.

 

Dude, you just argued that you don't need experience/consciousness in order to exist!

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Consciousness requires a brain. It has never been otherwise.

 

Prior to 3.5 billion years ago there was no life on this planet. Therefore, on this planet there was no consciousness.

Hearsay.

[Marblehead]

If every conscious being in the universe would cease to exist, would there still be a universe?

Yes.

 

Or, to put it more bluntly, is experience/consciousness absolutely necesary for existence?

No.

 

And if consciousness is necessary for existence, then it cannot come from matter since there would be no matter without consciousness. Therefore we must conclude that there is in fact objective consciousness. Or actually which is not objective, because that would require subjectivity. It is rather, absolute consciousness beyond duality.

But I already said it isn't.

 

To the best of my knowledge, non-living beings do not possess consciousness.

 

But there is matter without consciousness. The Mississippi River exists whether you can see it or not. And so does my chair that my butt is sitting on. My chair has no consciousness. I'm not sure about the Mississippi River.

 

Oh No!!! More Universal Consciousness. All consciousness is within the brain or nervous system of living beings. All esle is influenced by the "laws of physics", the process of Tao. And no, Tao is not a thing so let's not personify Tao and give it consciousness.

[Marblehead]

Dude, you just argued that you don't need experience/consciousness in order to exist!

I did not. I never said I am a rock. I am a mentally functioning human.

 

What I said was that I can exist but still be brain dead therefore I would be having no experiences not would I be conscious. But there I am, stuck through with tubes that are keeping my body alive so others can view my death-like state.

[Marblehead]

Hearsay.

Okay, the planet is only 4810 years old, was created by some jokester in only six days and there was absolutely nothing prior to that.

 

No, I opt for logic and reason, thank you.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Actually, he is a subject, not an object. Subjectively you felt his presence. All the other people aroud you at the time never felt his presence and therefore he was not there.

 

A person who has no subjective experience/cosciousness cannot be subject to anything, he can only be an object in another's consciousnes experience. When you say that something is there, you say that you are having an experience of something, therefore if other people did not have an experience of that pod-person then they didn't.

 

 

Yes, some of our illusions and delusions can be so strong that they seem totally real to us. But the person next to you is aware of nothing because the illusion or delusion does not exist for them.

 

Example: If you walked into a tree and got a bloody nose and you told me about it and I said that the tre does not exist and you challenge me to walk in a particular direction where the tree is, I walk and get a bloody nose as well. However, if I walk and walk directly through where the tree is supposed to be and nothing happened then I would likely assume that you got drunk and some guy punched you on your nose and bloodied it.

 

When we talk of objective reality, we are thinking and not experiencing reality. There is no such thing as objective reality, only consciousness which is neither objective nor subjective.

 

But you make a good point about the fact that a real object can get you hurt while a hallucination cannot. For example you hurt your nose while bumping in the tree, just as I flew on mars in a dream last night.

 

I didn't flew, it was just experience. Many patterns happened.

 

It is like a fractal system, most likely. I don't have all the answers, a Taoist master would have known.

 

 

Also, as a side note, neither chairs nor rocks are beings.

Edited November 20, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer