The Tao of breathing

[IntuitiveWanderer]

I have a question regarding proper breathing patterns and the ideal of practices involving the control of the breath, because I have observed that deep breathing is widely advocated by diverse teachers or people giving advice.

But I have read that hyperventilation is unhealthy and according to some teachers of Yoga, the goal of Yoga is not to increase the intake of oxygen but the reverse, namely to breath less than the average.

 

Here is a wikipedia article on the physiological effects of hyperventilation:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation

 

Here is a video in which a professional practitioner of Yoga argues that the purpose of Yoga practice is to develop the ability to breath less than the average:

 

 

http://blog.yogasynergy.com/2012/11/spinal-movement-sequence-part-23-why-to-breathe-less-than-normal-in-yoga/

 

 

What do you think?

Edited November 19, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

I think that "the Tao of breathing" is a misnomer. Breathing practices found in Taoism are imports from other traditions and not Taoism based.

 

But yes, I agree with you in the most part. To breathe naturally. A goal, IMO, would be to reduce the need for rapid breathing. Sure, life will present us with conditions when our breathing is very slow but will also present us with conditions where we need to breathe rapidly for the extra oxygen needs for activity. Basically, I think that we should let the body and mind decide what it needs and then do what we can to help provide it.

[joeblast]

It is correct - by increasing the efficiency, there is less action to produce the same net uptake.

[silent thunder]

Hyperventilation from my understanding, is rapid, shallow chest breathing that is not conducive to much aside from getting light headed, where as deep, intense, warrior belly breathing, (from the diaphragm) is what is being utilized in these practices. This was how it was explained to me when I asked that question regarding Tummo.

[iain]

Hello IntuitiveWanderer,

prāṇa, would perhaps translate as Chi, although when we consider prāṇāyāma we are also considering perhaps the vibration of chi, an integral part of prāṇāyāma is control of apāna as well as that of prāṇa, thus the reference to breath.

One way of doing this is through physical breathing; prāṇāyāma is stilling or slowing the breath, to still the mind and slow the heart rate, or vis versa, which its self effects the prāṇa.

There are, if I remember correctly 5 types of prāṇa.
So perhaps chi is not the best translation; I don't know.

[cheya]

Hello Intuitive Wanderer,

You may find these old threads useful in answering your question...

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33230-turtle-breathing-the-scientific-rationale/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/9379-dr-breath/

 

Google Butekyo Breathing and also Carl Stough for more in-depth explorations.

(Stough's methods are MUCH easier than Butekyo's, which most people find pretty daunting.)

 

 

 

 

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Hello IntuitiveWanderer,

 

prāṇa, would perhaps translate as Chi, although when we consider prāṇāyāma we are also considering perhaps the vibration of chi, an integral part of prāṇāyāma is control of apāna as well as that of prāṇa, thus the reference to breath.

 

One way of doing this is through physical breathing; prāṇāyāma is stilling or slowing the breath, to still the mind and slow the heart rate, or vis versa, which its self effects the prāṇa.

 

There are, if I remember correctly 5 types of prāṇa.

So perhaps chi is not the best translation; I don't know.

I didn't know that, thanks! I would also add that it is also optimal in itself to breath less, it is simply healthier to maintain a correct ballance between oxygen and co2 at all times. The body is a finely tuned system, in harmony with the Tao, and we must act in accordance, this includes breathing correctly.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Hello Intuitive Wanderer,

You may find these old threads useful in answering your question...

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33230-turtle-breathing-the-scientific-rationale/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/9379-dr-breath/

 

Google Butekyo Breathing and also Carl Stough for more in-depth explorations.

(Stough's methods are MUCH easier than Butekyo's, which most people find pretty daunting.)

 

The first time I stumbled unto this info was when I saw a video by a Unkrainian breathing instructor(?), who had put up a few video presentation of doctor Buteyko's findings and the physiology of breathing, but I didn't study it in depth yet, I only try to control my breath whenever I notice that it is incorrect, in order to develop a habit, but haven't yet started exercises. Anyway, thanks for the links, I'll search Stough's method and check out those two sites.

Edited November 19, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Marblehead]

... would perhaps translate as Chi, ...

I have seen a few times where Chi was translated as "breath".

 

(I don't personally hold to that but some do.)

[Rara]

I find that just by watching the breath, it slows and calms itself down

[iain]

I have seen a few times where Chi was translated as "breath".

 

(I don't personally hold to that but some do.)

That is interesting, I wouldn't hold to prāṇa as breath either as I mentioned albeit indirectly above.

I do tend to equate prāṇa to chi, rightly or wrongly, but avoiding the English which is a tricky language for these subjects due to its inherent linearity and lack of equivalent term.

Probably "anxiety" seen only as a negative and most often hidden by alcohol; The English way, talk around the subject and all that ...

[soaring crane]

When I was heavy into ultramarathoning, my normal resting breath was down to two a minute and my pulse was down below 45 bpm, even below 40 at true rest. I didn't do any yoga (but I did a lot qigong ). These are normal numbers for people in these endurance sports.

 

That only means that my circulatory system was so effecient that two breaths and 42 beats of my heart per minute were carrying enough oxygen to all my cells to keep them saturated and that's what's happening with any practice that results in "less breath than normal". One breath is doing the work of five "normal" breaths. In the case of yoga, I think it's basically due to the absolute absence of any blockages at all (and a LOT of practice). Blockages are emotional/mental and physical.

 

Regarding qi -- There are a 1000 kinds of qi and breath is one of the classic definitions.

[Marblehead]

And a Hummingbird's heart beats 42 times a second. (I have no idea how accurate that is but it does beat really fast.)

[ChiDragon]

42 bpm is considered as the "athlete's heart".

Btw I am a Tai ji practitioner and advocate breathing in a deep, slow and long manner. It keeps me healthy as a horse. My body tells me it makes a lot of deference with ample of oxygen in my body than with less. Unfortunately, my energy with libido is out of this world from abdominal breathing.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Inhale, retain, exhale, relax.
Inhale, relax, exhale, deprive.


retention and deprivation are both "holding" the breath, either in or out.

[ChiDragon]

When I was heavy into ultra marathoning, my normal resting breath was down to two a minute and my pulse was down below 45 bpm, even below 40 at true rest. I didn't do any yoga (but I did a lot qigong ). These are normal numbers for people in these endurance sports.

 

That only means that my circulatory system was so effecient that two breaths and 42 beats of my heart per minute were carrying enough oxygen to all my cells to keep them saturated and that's what's happening with any practice that results in "less breath than normal". One breath is doing the work of five "normal" breaths. In the case of yoga, I think it's basically due to the absolute absence of any blockages at all (and a LOT of practice). Blockages are emotional/mental and physical.

 

Regarding qi -- There are a 1000 kinds of qi and breath is one of the classic definitions.

 

"two a minute and my pulse was down below 45 bpm," I must consider that you are a Chi Kung master. I like to do 4 breaths per minutes to be comfortable at resting; and do one breath per minute for insomnia which puts me into sleep in no time.

 

To the best of my knowledge, "in your ultra marathoning, two breaths and 42 beats of my heart per minute were carrying enough oxygen to all my cells" is a very accurate statement. However, it was not "basically due to the absolute absence of any blockages at all". It is the oxygen that was keeping your glucose from reaching the lactate threshold level. So, your body will continue to produce the biological energy(ATP) to keep you running. Otherwise, your muscles will be sore and painful due to hypoxia.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Inhale, retain, exhale, relax.

Inhale, relax, exhale, deprive.

 

 

retention and deprivation are both "holding" the breath, either in or out.

 

Holding is a good test for the level of breathing. The longer one can hold the breath is an indication of how much oxygen was inhaled in the lung. The more oxygen the longer one can hold the breath. However, as soon the oxygen was used up, one must exhale and inhale for more.

 

I rather breathe deep, slow and long other than holding my breath. Keeping the chi in motion inside the trachea is a normal breathing process. Holding the breath will interfering the normal breathing routine. Anyway, regulating the breath, known as 運氣, is a good practicing habit.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Holding is a good test for the level of breathing. The longer one can hold the breath is an indication of how much oxygen was inhaled in the lung. The more oxygen the longer one can hold the breath. However, as soon the oxygen was used up, one must exhale and inhale for more.

 

I rather breathe deep, slow and long other than holding my breath.

Try that on Mount Everest.

[doc benway]

I have a question regarding proper breathing patterns and the ideal of practices involving the control of the breath, because I have observed that deep breathing is widely advocated by diverse teachers or people giving advice.

But I have read that hyperventilation is unhealthy and according to some teachers of Yoga, the goal of Yoga is not to increase the intake of oxygen but the reverse, namely to breath less than the average.

.....

 

What do you think?

 

There are a wide variety of breathing methods that have been devised to generate different effects.

They have their place and should be properly applied based on desired outcome.

 

I feel that the optimal breathing is unadulterated, natural breathing such as a young child would breath.

Most of our conceptual interference is a distraction, like trying to beat our hearts better...

 

I practice getting out of the way.

[ChiDragon]

Try that on Mount Everest.

 

Well...!!! When I was in Tibet I told everybody, before we get off the bus, to breathe deep, slow and long in case they are having breathing problems. The next morning, one guy with a heart problem, told me he was glad that I had told him that. It saved his life from suffocation.

 

Anyway, at one instance, I had to hold my breath when a policeman knocked on my hotel window, 5:30 in the morning, and ask me was anything got stolen. Yes, unfortunately, all my cash were gone.

Edited November 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well...!!! When I was in Tibet I told everybody, before we get off the bus, to breathe deep, slow and long in case they are having breathing problems. The next morning, one guy with a heart problem, told me he was glad that I had told him that. It saved his life from suffocation.

Okay. You already know the experience.

 

Anyway, at one instance, I had to hold my breath when a policeman knocked on my hotel window, 5:30 in the morning, and ask me was anything got stolen. Yes, unfortunately, all my cash were gone.

Hehehe. Reminds me of my military days.

 

Once upon a time I went home with a lady and, trying to be a proper guest, took off my shoes before entering and left them outside as is custom. As I was leaving I noticed that my shoes were no longer there. I walked back to post in my stockinged feet. (That never happened a second time.) (The shoes, not the ladies.)

[dust]

I have seen a few times where Chi was translated as "breath".

 

(I don't personally hold to that but some do.)

 

It's a case where one Chinese character has many meanings. 气 must be, in some contexts, translated as breath. If we talk about inhaling and exhaling qi, for example, we're talking about breathing.

 

Personally, I've always seen the qi that we breathe as continuing into a process in the body by which we produce qi energy.

In Western scientific terms, this process is aerobic respiration, which is incredibly important (obviously). So to me qi is both breath and energy. They're as inseparable as... food and poop?

 

That the ancients knew this -- that qi breath and qi energy are essentially the same -- is quite impressive.

Edited November 21, 2014 by dustybeijing

[NotVoid]

I think that "the Tao of breathing" is a misnomer. Breathing practices found in Taoism are imports from other traditions and not Taoism based.

 

I sincerely doubt that you can back that statement up. You would have to know the full details of the origins of all Taoist practices which involve any sort of breath control or breathing method. Since in reality we most definitely don't know the exact origins of all the different practices which fall under the banner of Taoism which employ breathing practices, it doesn't make sense to suggest that all Taoist breathing practices derive only from outside influences.

Edited November 22, 2014 by NotVoid

[ChiDragon]

That the ancients knew this -- that qi breath and qi energy are essentially the same -- is quite impressive.

 

 

I think the ancient thought that the qi breath and qi energy were the same. However, I think that qi breath is the air that we breathe and the qi energy is biological energy ATP. The ancients just did not have the knowledge to distinguish the difference between the two. Somehow, the ancients were given the impression that when one raise the hands will absorb the qi energy of heaven(天氣), and the feet will absorb the qi energy of earth(地氣).

Edited November 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Here is an interesting quote from the Bhavagadgita which refers to breath regulation:

 

 

"Yet some offer as sacrifice, the outgoing into the in-coming breath, and the in-coming into the out-going, stopping the courses of the in-coming and out-going breaths, constantly practising the regulation of the vital energy; while others yet of regulated food, offer in the Prânas the functions thereof."

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbg/sbg09.htm