Religion or Not?

[Taokuoh]

So I was researching more about taoism as I'm more interested in the wisdom and philosophical side of it, and so I was wondering, is taoism a religion or just a philosophy? Because from what I've read some say it is a religion and others say its not.

Edited November 19, 2014 by CoolBreezy

[LaoZiDao]

It is not, but modern day it is mistaken as religion.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

But there are religious people who subscribe to taoism and some deities are taoists in tradition while others belong to other pantheons, or at least thats how i understand it. Some are popular in more than one tradition, like Guan Gong who is revered by both taoists and buddhists if im not mistaken.

Theres a part of me that wants to say "people pray to the gods that suit them" but it sounds a little derogatory and thats not how i mean it

 

Edit: what i do mean is that theres a practical aspect to factor when there are different deities available, but thats my speculation.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Gerard]

I'd say more practical than philosophical. Yin, Yang, the Five Qualities, the Bagua are very tangible energies but are imperceptible unless you have refined your mind to a great extent. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE starting from the very inside of you.

 

NO RELIGION, thanks.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Gerard

[dust]

It's whatever you choose.

 

Give me a definition for religion, philosophy, spirituality, practicality, or biscuit, and I'll give you two more for each.

 

Give me a definition of Taoism, and I'll give you ten. Thousand.

[woodcarver]

taoism isn't even taoism

[Marblehead]

There are three aspects of Taoism:

 

Alchemic: Origins date back before the Tao Te Ching. This includes Shamanism.

 

Philosophical: Basically dating from the Tao Te Ching although its roots are much older.

 

Religious: Taoism became a State Religion in China only after it structured itself in the manner that Buddhism is structured.

[Wayfarer]

Taoism is religion, Tao is not.

Christianity is religion, God is not.

Tao and God are descriptions of One Thing.

Nothing is a philosophy or a religion; they are both our attempts at describing That.

So the Tao is as much alive in the Gospels as God is alive in the Tao Te Ching.

All religions point to IT in their own way; IT appearing to point to itself.

 

[Taokuoh]

Oh right, well yeah I didn't see it as a religion from the start but I just wanted a real answer, instead of going by feelings, thanks. Also how do you know if you're a Taoist or not? Because I'm still in the basic understanding of the Tao.

Edited November 20, 2014 by CoolBreezy

[Marblehead]

Also how do you know if you're a Taoist or not?

By not letting anyone else tell you what it takes to be a Taoist.

[dust]

I just wanted a real answer, instead of going by feelings, thanks.

 

You mean feelings aren't real??

 

[Marblehead]

You mean feelings aren't real??

 

Hehehe. That's a trick question, isn't it?

[dust]

I'm not sure...

[PLB]

So I was researching more about taoism as I'm more interested in the wisdom and philosophical side of it, and so I was wondering, is taoism a religion or just a philosophy? Because from what I've read some say it is a religion and others say its not.

 

What have you been reading?

[Taokuoh]

You mean feelings aren't real??

 

 

Oh no sorry I was typing quick, I meant it as in I had a hunch that it wasn't just considered a religion aha.

[Taokuoh]

What have you been reading?

 

Just internet research based on what I've found, I literally just typed into Google "Is Taoism a religion?" And come up with some saying yes and some saying no. Also while watching some YouTube videos, some users were commenting saying that "it's not really a religion."

[ChiDragon]

Taoism, the term by itself, is not a religion; but it is a composite term which include all aspects about Taoism. This include the Tao philosophy and the Tao religion. The religion was derived from the interpretation of the principles of the Tao philosophy by some people. Those who study the Tao philosophy are scholars which are not necessary religious.

Edited November 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

Just internet research based on what I've found, I literally just typed into Google "Is Taoism a religion?" And come up with some saying yes and some saying no. Also while watching some YouTube videos, some users were commenting saying that "it's not really a religion."

I suggest reading as much of the earliest text you can get your hands on. You will be asked to change what you are doing there.

That is where the stuff is.

 

The rest is commentary by people who aren't trying to change but are more interested in seating assignments.

 

Never sit down.

Edited November 21, 2014 by PLB

[Taokuoh]

I suggest reading as much of the earliest text you can get your hands on. You will be asked to change what you are doing there.

That is where the stuff is.

 

The rest is commentary by people who aren't trying to change but are more interested in seating assignments.

 

Never sit down.

 

Yeah the next book I will be reading will be either "The Tao of Pooh" or "Tao: The Watercourse Way" unless you have any other suggestions? I have already read Tao Te Ching as well, and that's the only Tao text I have read.

Edited November 21, 2014 by CoolBreezy

[Taokuoh]

Taoism, the term by itself, is not a religion; but it is composite term which include all aspects about Taoism. This include the Tao philosophy and the Tao religion. The religion was derived from the interpretation of the principles of the Tao philosophy by some people. Those who study the Tao philosophy are scholars which are not necessary religious.

 

I come under the Tao Philosophy then.

[dust]

Yeah the next book I will be reading will be either "The Tao of Pooh" or "Tao: The Watercourse Way" unless you have any other suggestions? I have already read Tao Te Ching as well, and that's the only Tao text I have read.

 

Well, I haven't read the Tao of Pooh for many years, but.. it's not in the required reading as far as early texts go!

 

Reading the TTC once or even a few times is most likely not enough. And there's no single really good translation of the text, so I always suggest reading at least 3 different versions.

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

There are a lot here. My favourites are John Wu's, Gia-fu Feng's, and Stephen Addiss's.

People also commonly refer to D. C. Lau's and Lin Yutang's, though I haven't read them myself.

 

Also, importantly, the Chuang Tzu / Zhuangzi

http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html

is equally as important as the TTC, really, though I must admit I haven't read it in its entirety yet

Edited November 21, 2014 by dustybeijing

[NotVoid]

Just internet research based on what I've found, I literally just typed into Google "Is Taoism a religion?" And come up with some saying yes and some saying no. Also while watching some YouTube videos, some users were commenting saying that "it's not really a religion."

CoolBreezy, to ask if something like 'taoism' is a religion is a loaded question, as people have different ideas of what 'religion' is for one thing.

Here is a dictionary definition of religion:

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

a particular system of faith and worship.

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance."

 

There is a fair bit of room for intepretation in such a definition.

 

Also, on internet forums you are almost certain to get all sorts of biased and incorrect answers to a question like this because the fact is people often respond with what they would prefer to believe/think rather than what can be confirmed with actual facts. That is human nature. People's views are greatly influenced by their belief system; much more so than many people would ever realize/admit. As an example, the first *known* formal Taoist religious sect (there may possibly have been various others prior to this but historians don't have solid records to confirm or not) was the Five Pecks of Rice sect which was formed around 142 CE. It is most likely that this time period is quite a bit before there was any significant influence from Buddhism in China. So it would seem that Taosim as a formalized 'religion' was in evidence going back at least to about approx. 2000 years ago, and maybe much longer. Just because there are no clear official historical records found of formal Taoist sects existing prior to this time period, it certainly doesn't mean that such could not have existed.

 

I think really there is no clear cut answer to your questions, but in general 'Taosim' is actually a term that is used to describe a whole range of practices and belief systems which originated in the region of China, and included under this name are most definitely religious beliefs and practices, philosophy, personal cultivation practices, divination practices, etc. Different sects in Taoism tend to mix these different aspects to different degrees. No one really knows what things were like during the time period in which the tao te ching was written as there are very few historical writings from that period and earlier. Anyone who tries to draw conclusions about what various forms of 'taoism' may have been in existence in those time periods and earlier is most definitely employing a lot of speculation. We really just don't know. That's my point of view on the matter anyway.

Edited November 21, 2014 by NotVoid

[Taokuoh]

Well, I haven't read the Tao of Pooh for many years, but.. it's not in the required reading as far as early texts go!

 

Reading the TTC once or even a few times is most likely not enough. And there's no single really good translation of the text, so I always suggest reading at least 3 different versions.

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

There are a lot here. My favourites are John Wu's, Gia-fu Feng's, and Stephen Addiss's.

People also commonly refer to D. C. Lau's and Lin Yutang's, though I haven't read them myself.

 

Also, importantly, the Chuang Tzu / Zhuangzi

http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html

is equally as important as the TTC, really, though I must admit I haven't read it in its entirety yet

 

Yes the Tao Te Ching book I read was by Gia-fu Feng, which is the book I have ordered for Christmas. But thanks for the suggestions, I shall read the other two versions.

 

And I was going to read the Tao of Pooh as many people have said it gives you the basic understanding of what the Tao is. Although at the moment I prefer Tao Te Ching having not read the Tao of Pooh.

[Taokuoh]

CoolBreezy, to ask if something like 'taoism' is a religion is a loaded question, as people have different ideas of what 'religion' is for one thing.

Here is a dictionary definition of religion:

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

a particular system of faith and worship.

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance."

 

There is a fair bit of room for intepretation in such a definition.

 

Also, on internet forums you are almost certain to get all sorts of biased and incorrect answers to a question like this because the fact is people often respond with what they would prefer to believe/think rather than what can be confirmed with actual facts. That is human nature. People's views are greatly influenced by their belief system; much more so than many people would ever realize/admit. As an example, the first *known* formal Taoist religious sect (there may possibly have been various others prior to this but historians don't have solid records to confirm or not) was the Five Pecks of Rice sect which was formed around 142 CE. It is most likely that this time period is quite a bit before there was any significant influence from Buddhism in China. So it would seem that Taosim as a formalized 'religion' was in evidence going back at least to about approx. 2000 years ago, and maybe much longer. Just because there are no clear official historical records found of formal Taoist sects existing prior to this time period, it certainly doesn't mean that such could not have existed.

 

I think really there is no clear cut answer to your questions, but in general 'Taosim' is actually a term that is used to describe a whole range of practices and belief systems which originated in the region of China, and included under this name are most definitely religious beliefs and practices, philosophy, personal cultivation practices, divination practices, etc. Different sects in Taoism tend to mix these different aspects to different degrees. No one really knows what things were like during the time period in which the tao te ching was written as there are very few historical writings from that period and earlier. Anyone who tries to draw conclusions about what various forms of 'taoism' may have been in existence in those time periods and earlier is most definitely employing a lot of speculation. We really just don't know. That's my point of view on the matter anyway.

 

Yes forgive me as I am still in the understanding of the Tao. However I am feeling more connected with it everyday as I continue to read texts here and there.

 

Yes that is true that everyone's opinion is going to be different and biased, but as I previously mentioned that I am still new to Taoism, I figured everyone would generally have the same answer. It can be difficult to fully understand the Tao.

 

Forgive me if I didn't return a reply with as much detailed as yours, it was just that what you said was an interesting read.

 

This will probably go against what you have said, but I did also find online that it is only in the modern day that Taoism is considered a religion, whereas back in around about the 4th century it wasn't considered a religion. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited November 21, 2014 by CoolBreezy

[NotVoid]

It can be difficult to fully understand the Tao.

I think you may find that this is quite an understatement.

 

This will probably go against what you have said, but I did also find online that it is only in the modern day that Taoism is considered a religion, whereas back in around about the 4th century it wasn't considered a religion. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Well as I have already pointed out, and it seems to be pretty widely accepted by historians, that the Five Pecks of Rice Taoist religious sect which formed around 142 CE is considered to be the first formal religious sect of Taoism that can be confirmed through historical writings. As I also mentioned however, just because there are not in existence historical records of possible earlier formal Taoist groups of this sort, it doesn't mean that they couldn't have existed. It is not known.

 

Little is known about what form or forms of Taoism may have been in existence around the time that the tao te ching was written. This is because there are few historical records existing from that time period and earlier. Many people in the West seem to prefer to believe that what is written in the tao te ching is some sort of complete work of 'Taoist' thought that existed in that time period, but there is no real reason to assume such a thing. It is not even known for certain if the tao te ching is just a collection of different ideas that were thrown together into one text at some point, or even if there really was such a person who is referred to as 'Lao Tzu'. We do know that at least some taoist traditions were quite secretive in nature, so it is possible that some traditions that existed at the time of the tao te ching or earlier never had anything written down in regards to their beliefs and practices. Some Taoist traditions in existence today state that the roots of their practices go back to times well before the tao te ching, but this can't be verified.

 

The bottom line is there are many practices and beliefs that fall under the banner of Taoism, and I think that if you do some serious research into the actual Taoism of China you will find this to be so.

Edited November 21, 2014 by NotVoid