Mystical Progression (Tao) and Virtue, Character (Te)

[Trunk]

I wanted to open up the topic of mystical/qigong progression and virtue in action, character ... which I'm calling "Tao" and "te" (maybe not *exactly* the classical use of those but pretty close). Aka, "wisdom" and "virtue".

 

The myth is that "enlightened people are perfect in virtue" and "as I become more enlightened, my character flaws will clear up" ... simplistic ideas that mystical progression and virtue progress in sync, which most of us who've been around even a little recognize isn't true. There've been plenty of teachers (even in the last few decades) who are *extremely* advanced mystically and misbehave otherwise, it's basically cliche. (I don't want to spend hardly any space in this thread pointing fingers at "flawed teachers"; that's not the topic here ... more just the human process.) And certainly in my own practice, I'm really glad to engage in mystical practice and feel it is worth while in it's own sake, and that continues to deepen ... but it certainly has not been any magic wand in making me a perfect human being, lol.

 

How do you navigate, integrate, Tao and te?

Do you find that they are functionally connected? ... a lot? ... only a little?

 

Throwing the topic open for discussion.

[Silent Answers]

I manage/try to keep the water on the inside as calm as possible, yet allow myself to react like a normal human being would to outside sources.

 

Sometimes it's necessary to show anger and aggression...on the outside, while inside your having a giggle.

 

Basically what I'm saying is: I've found, the path of enlightenment doesn't necessarily require supreme kindness and love. The results give you power over self to interact with the world as you see fit. By that point though, everyone should have a decent set of morals brought about by certain truths discovered along the way. But that doesn't mean we can't get into a little mischief now and again.

 

I hope that's where you were going with this thread.

 

Disclaimer** I've just woken up, so I could be talking a load of crap.

[Brian]

I think they are each a drunkard's walk, each largely separate from the other. I think "pursuing" either is futile but I think consistently practicing either with sincerity & humility biases the drunkard's walks of both in the direction of alignment.

[Guest munky]

Probably, mystical qigong doesn't mean Tao nor does virtue just mean good character.
Our idea of perfection and no flaws is also not virtue, as that idea is still a product of our mind. Afterall, it's hard to judge whether a person is advanced mystically through their outward actions. Likewise it's easy to get confused by a teacher's seemingly flawless and wise outward demeanour. How many of these teachers considered advanced and enlightened actually are? Is someone who is enlightened or has reached Tao easy to recognise? I think when someone else has reached close to their level, only then will they be able to truly recognise that attainment.

Tao - the source, virtue - the pure energy originating from the Tao. This virtue energy is still unified so is still considered formless and beyond yin and yang. Virtue or One energy becomes Two to become the formed. In this way, when on the path of refining energy through spiritual practice, one must first reach the level of virtue energy, before being able to reach Tao. Te cannot be separately cultivated from Tao. It is on the way.

Through practice we can work toward that level, but we must first navigate the realm of form to higher levels of formed energy before we can get there.

Though many practices want to be mystical today, a lot of qigong practices will not lead one to virtue, let alone Tao. Some may even lead one in the opposite direction, away from Tao.

Our energy output is only where we are at along this path to Tao.
Even doing a good practice transmitted by a higher level teacher, we're also still working with the energy of where we are actually at. In most cases, this is still a ways from Tao and we shouldn't be too quick to call it as such, just because it is moving toward it. To really move toward virtue and Tao, it still comes down to our own personal effort and our motivations behind qigong practice.

The transforming from dark to light is a process of soul purification, so in this way some character flaws we know of may begin to clear up, though it may not be dedicated to clearing those you have in mind. Not to mention it is a very gradual process and hard to notice sometimes. It is not an instant transformation, at least not one that can last. So surely, spiritual practice isn't a magic wand making one into a perfect human being. Only the mind can trick ourselves into thinking it can do that.

What does it mean to be perfect anyway? No negative emotions or thoughts? No desires? Perfection exists in our mind. Would will still pick out flaws in an immortal, if we didn't know they were immortal?

Edited November 20, 2014 by munky

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[Anoesjka]

I hesitate to call people enlightened that claim to be celibate for instance, yet are clearly not. It's not an issue so much that they're not celibate, but it's the lying aspect.

 

And more recently, this Rampal, that has been arrested for murder: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-30110369

 

Now, how enlightened is that? How can the transformation that is enlightenment leave those personality traits intact? Enlightenment is all about deconstruction of the old personality and construction of the new human, right?

[Arda]

Hmm... I have some thoughts I'd like to share.

 

Wisdom is knowledge unbound by the temporal, by the material and by circumstance.

 

Virtue is excellence of character.

 

There is a quote that sticks to my mind that I feel is pertinent to this topic.

"Knowledge without Justice should may as well be called Cunning, rather than Wisdom." I believe that wisdom is a higher function of mind which does not originate purely in the intellect, whereas knowledge is the lower function ruled by the intellect. Understanding this, it seems fair to say that there is such a thing as a perverse or 'dark' wisdom, and that wisdom can be abused. But then would it really be wisdom? Who's to say that this isn't simply an understanding of the higher things, not a knowing of them? What is mystical progression? Simple exercise in man's extrasensory perceptions and higher states of being? Strengthening magical capacity?

 

Knowing would imply a change in Being within the individual. Understanding is but knowledge that is stagnant unless translated into action.

 

To address the latter part of the opening post made by Trunks, I believe that to reach the purity of the Tao one must work on refining the Te. Integrity is the foundation for all other practice, mystical or otherwise. To have a strong character is to be a proper vessel for the Tao... imo.

 

[Gerard]

Yes, definitively.

 

Bagua practice has helped me understand one thing:

 

The further you walk in the path, the thinner the line has become. No room for error. Morality and ethics are number one priority.

 

This wonderful art has helped me "become a better person."

 

I'll be more than happy with these attainments should I die tomorrow.

 

Tao and Te are intimately connected, for sure.

 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Gerard

[Taoist Texts]

There've been plenty of teachers (even in the last few decades) who are *extremely* advanced mystically and misbehave otherwise,

 

may be thats the other way around. Could it be that they were not advanced mystically but rather mistycally challenged?

[NotVoid]

The problem with starting with an assumption and then moving forward from there, is that if the starting assumption is not correct then all that follows is likely not correct as well.

Edited November 21, 2014 by NotVoid

[daojones]

I came here to say what NotVoid just stated far more eloquently than I would have put it.

What is Te anyways? Is one not the creator of Te?

For me, virtue, is more about the cause and effect of actions, as opposed to 'virture itself'. Claiming virtue itself as known is the same BS as someone saying they're enlightened. So what! I am too

If a leader creates a harem from his followers, who is to say that is not-virtuous. Would it not be the tao? And how does the tao speak or pass judgement on such actions. If it is not aligned with the tao then it won't work out. If one progresses mystically to know the tao, then it would seem that the knowledge of what is a virtuous act would be clear. However, the gap between knowledge and action is one major issue. But then that begs the question, if tao and te are not aligned - then how aligned are you with the tao? Would a deep understanding not be an embodied realization, and an embodied realization would be the bridge between knoweldge and action?

Edited November 23, 2014 by daojones

[zerostao]

tao is mystery of universe te is mystery of human,

i like gerard's post/i like everyone's actually

but with bagua,yeah, i'd say its good for the te

xyp has done wonders as well

Edited November 24, 2014 by zerostao

[Spotless]

Progress in the mystical side of things has nothing to do with ethics or morals - for that matter ethics and morals have little or no implications upon one regarding both the mystical side and Awakening and the then Enlightening process.

 

"Enlightenment" might here be defined as Awakening and the the unfurling process of Enlightening - I do not see an end to this process.

 

In cold terms a great deal matters in terms of dissipation of energy.

 

Strictly speaking as one nears fruition most ethics and morals will be dissolved, replaced by right thinking, right action - most actual morals and ethics are based on fear and positions and pack mentality / DNA - complete dissipations, distortions and complications within the leading of ones life.

 

Automated ethics and morals do not take as much effort but what is the value in terms of virtue of robotic ethical and moral behavior? zero - it's just dead doing good or bad or drunk - programmed and inherited sleep.

 

You can reach an Awakened shore in a relatively clean state and you can reach one that will require un reaching that shore.

But very high Awakened states can be reached by going about things in a black way. Unfortunately for those poor souls, their attainment must inevitably result in great great pain or complete annihilation.

 

We in the West and in general everywhere but perhaps much of India are subject to the extremes of our inherited religions and the general misconception about perfection / black and white / (things like Imaculate conception and virgin birth and other uncalled for notions of the Bible and many many other religions that include these God birth propagandas required by tradition).

 

The story of Milerepa pretty clearly illustrated that there is no need of Ethics or Morals to rise very high in the mystical abilities, and it was not suddenly getting Ethics and Morals that took him on a new course - it was the sudden clarity of right thinking/seeing breaking his one pointedness.

 

He then took it upon himself to melt his own foundation and forge a new one - this took great personal intentional suffering. He did not flip a switch and just work on merit - he had to reforge the blade - and the blade was he.

 

We want to see a uniform package that we can call Enlightenment - it does not come in a uniform package, we cannot see it and basically we do not want it - so we will shit on it if someone near us is uppity enough to have accomplished it.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Spotless

[3bob]

It's a good thing karma is fair, infallible and uniform in the end result otherwise everyone doing their own take or thing and not answering for it would mean various forms of vanity and or insanity would effectively be Reality.

 

Btw, it can be very hairy to face a truly enlightened being since it can be like facing ones karmas instantly and in full force since such a being also stands with or as a keeper of the laws of karma.

Edited November 24, 2014 by 3bob

[MooNiNite]

i believe the mystical experience that can be attained will bring one closer to reality, maybe a closer awareness of one's flaws?

[Spotless]

Regarding Karma and fairness:

 

We tend to think that Karma will meter out punishments in accordance with the crime, that it is the great equalizer.

Retribution is not the karma game and equalizing and subduing is not part of the mechanism either.

 

It does not meter out bad in accordance with your bad deeds and good in accordance with your good deeds. Both are done in sleep and both can prolong your sleep.

 

Karma is metered out in accordance with what will bring you to an Awakening to the great natural current of all in the sea of stillness.

 

In general it takes a great ego to Awaken - it is basically a requirement - yet we must dissolve the ego - it is a requirement. Great ego has the audacity to give up on its stupidity. It has the audacity to discard its history and identities. It has the audacity to sit on a rock and tell the higher powers that it will not leave that rock and not eat and not cloth itself until it has either died or reached Enlightenment.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Spotless

[3bob]

karma is the mathematics of energy acting per its law, although higher math can supersede lower math. For instance an "eye for an eye" type of math can be superseded by a "love thine enemy" math. None-the-less karma is a great equalizer in the sense that no being can break it or skip it since it is a built-in and infallible fairness factor, sleep or no sleep within all of creation. Thus the math of negative or positive forms of energy actions bring the result of having to deal with same and both are or can be taken as teachers without any devious or dubious ulterior motives as I hear implied by Spotless, since such are just the facts of the form of energy.

 

Great ego can not reach enlightenment, per human audacity. That is a law of Spirit. Yet great ego in sense of great willfulness can recognize its need to surrender to a greater will and thus be readied and or prepared to be chosen and freed by the Will and Wisdom of Spirit! (for only that Truth has the power to dissolve ego)

 

Om

[doc benway]

I wanted to open up the topic of mystical/qigong progression and virtue in action, character ... which I'm calling "Tao" and "te" (maybe not *exactly* the classical use of those but pretty close). Aka, "wisdom" and "virtue".

 

The myth is that "enlightened people are perfect in virtue" and "as I become more enlightened, my character flaws will clear up" ... simplistic ideas that mystical progression and virtue progress in sync, which most of us who've been around even a little recognize isn't true. There've been plenty of teachers (even in the last few decades) who are *extremely* advanced mystically and misbehave otherwise, it's basically cliche. (I don't want to spend hardly any space in this thread pointing fingers at "flawed teachers"; that's not the topic here ... more just the human process.) And certainly in my own practice, I'm really glad to engage in mystical practice and feel it is worth while in it's own sake, and that continues to deepen ... but it certainly has not been any magic wand in making me a perfect human being, lol.

 

How do you navigate, integrate, Tao and te?

Do you find that they are functionally connected? ... a lot? ... only a little?

 

Throwing the topic open for discussion.

 

I will come at the question from a slightly different perspective.

I feel like I'm seeing responses predicated on different definitions of Dao and De so I'll respond to your English words of Wisdom and Virtue. Furthermore, I'll take semantic license and replace Virtue with Method which, in Bon and Buddhist terminology is synonymous with Compassion. I acknowledge that this may not be identical to the question as you asked it but it will help me to express my opinion.

 

In my view and practice, Dao and De, Wisdom and Virtue, Wisdom and Compassion are inseparable. Wisdom is the recognition of truth, of our fundamental human nature. Depending on one's aptitude and preferences, we can use many concepts to define this - oneness, wholeness, emptiness, clear light, naturalness, deathless, birthless, unchanging, and any combination of the above. All of these concepts are wrong - they are all inaccurate approximations of what refuses to be defined or limited. Dao cannot be defined...

 

Virtue is the effect of this Wisdom and Virtue is also a path to this Wisdom.

 

Any direct contact with that true nature is necessarily accompanied by an awakening to the truth that binds all living things together. It underlines their lack of separation and the wholeness of being. Progress up until that point will be reflected in manifestations that are related to one's karmic traces. There are the Oshos, the Krishnamurtis, the Ramanas, the Dalai Lamas, all quite advance spiritually and all quite different in their external manifestations. However, it is my opinion that once that direct connection is made, a person cannot any longer act in a way that is devoid of caring for others as they would care for themselves. Self and other no longer has meaning so taking advantage of another is taking advantage of oneself.

 

This is not an absolute... the connection is a transient and fragile thing but, at the same time, irrevocable and will inform each and every day of the rest of our lives. Certainly we will back slide and fall into old patterns. If a piece of paper is stored rolled up for 30 years and then unrolled, does it lay flat? There is MUCH to undo - nothing really to do. But as we do engage with others and engage in activity moving forward in our lives, there is that memory of love and that connection to all life that will not permit us to pretend ignorance any longer.

[Michael Sternbach]

Great spiritual teachers seem to be as flawed and troubled as geniuses in other areas. They all are manifesting strong "energies", and sometimes, the greater the light, the darker the shadows.

 

A similar discussion on another thread recently helped me to see, however, that by integrating the parts of our own being, we also radiate this and act in more integrated, therefore constructive ways... unwittingly - as both Jesus and Lao Tzu taught. This is true virtue.

 

But if by "virtue", we mean "morals", then no... An integrated individual will do what they think is right, regardless if others see it that way or not.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[zerostao]

reflections can be found in the shadows, as well as shadows can be found in the reflections.

does good efforts/works of compassion lead to virtue ?

or does one need to be virtuous before they do the good efforts/works of compassion ?

compassion also comes in many different flavors.

merit is also in play here.

my pov te is power, one has power; capability and capacity to acts of kindness.

its the little things that often go unnoticed that matter

[ChiDragon]

does good efforts/works of compassion lead to virtue ?

or does one need to be virtuous before they do the good efforts/works of compassion ?

 

I would say that the latter takes priority....

[Stosh]

If mans nature is the origin of his virtue , that is to say, he works to make his world a 'better' place successfully,, then he cannot escape or avoid acting out of virtue.

His capability and tendency for compassion , enhanced presumably by returning to his native essence, is but a virtue of that ilk.

 

Its a basic assumption that one has to make if Taoism is going to make any sense. That mans intrinsic traits are good.

Even If one defines virtue ,by sacrifice of oneself as an individual , to the needs of the group,,, since one is still trying to fulfill who it is he sees himself as, or , he is trying to be a good , or he is trying to have good things happen to others which he wants to have happen. He must always act in what he sees as his own interest, in some fashion. Even if he is intentionally self destructive , he thinks he is better off destroyed.

He always is trying to affect the world in a way which suits him ( his power is always unto that end, unless he is in error)

 

So I say the questions should both be answered in the negative , or that they employ a premise which I consider false.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Its a basic assumption that one has to make if Taoism is going to make any sense. That mans intrinsic traits are good.

Even If one defines virtue ,by sacrifice of oneself as an individual , to the needs of the group,,, since one is still trying to fulfill who it is he sees himself as, or , he is trying to be a good , or he is trying to have good things happen to others which he wants to have happen. He must always act in what he sees as his own interest, in some fashion. Even if he is intentionally self destructive , he thinks he is better off destroyed.

He always is trying to affect the world in a way which suits him ( his power is always unto that end, unless he is in error)

 

So I say the questions should both be answered in the negative , or that they employ a premise which I consider false.

 

I think the air need to be cleared here! The thinking of Taoism and men cannot be mixed in this scenario. What is in blue is only pertained to men only. By definition, a Taoist has no desire for the intention to act out anything as specified in blue. It is not Wu Wei in the cultivation of the Taoist practice.

[Stosh]

 

I think the air need to be cleared here! The thinking of Taoism and men cannot be mixed in this scenario. What is in blue is only pertained to men only. By definition, a Taoist has no desire for the intention to act out anything as specified in blue. It is not Wu Wei in the cultivation of the Taoist practice.

Nice to see your posting again.

Men are part of the whole.

If a man wants to pretend he can withdraw from interacting with the finite world he can pretend that.

When I see the man who can literally do nothing , desire nothing, Ill consider him to be a proper Taoist in your eyes.

Until then I consider your definition to exist , but as a fantasy.

[ChiDragon]

Nice to see your posting again.

Men are part of the whole.

If a man wants to pretend he can withdraw from interacting with the finite world he can pretend that.

When I see the man who can literally do nothing , desire nothing, Ill consider him to be a proper Taoist in your eyes.

Until then I consider your definition to exist , but as a fantasy.

Well, likewise....

 

Yes, you're still talking about a man like Confucius, in contrast to Lao Zi, which is a fantasy.

Edited November 25, 2014 by ChiDragon