Mystical Progression (Tao) and Virtue, Character (Te)

[Spotless]

Virtue is not action, intent or inertia - it is connectedness - it is bliss but bliss is far to mild - it is a piercing ray of connectivity finer than the most unutterable fineness.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Spotless

[zerostao]

virtue is connectedness, and i appreciate the poetic "it is bliss but bliss is far to mild - it is a piercing ray of connectivity finer than the most unutterable fineness." that is some fineness.

does the connectedness virtue have to be like you say tho?

couldnt it rest in equanimity and indifference as well? as long as the connectedness is there?

[liminal_luke]

I´ve been privileged to have had some wonderful teachers so far, and all have them have also been very imperfect people. In my experience meditation doesn´t wear away human foibles, or at least not with any great efficiency.

 

And yet, I do like myself better when I´ve been practicing a lot. I´m not sure practice makes me more virtuous, as it´s usually thought of. It probably makes me more of a character.

 

Liminal

[Spotless]

virtue is connectedness, and i appreciate the poetic "it is bliss but bliss is far to mild - it is a piercing ray of connectivity finer than the most unutterable fineness." that is some fineness.

does the connectedness virtue have to be like you say tho?

couldnt it rest in equanimity and indifference as well? as long as the connectedness is there?

It is the core vibration, it is life - everything hovers around it.

 

When you are "in" this state a disruptive or discordant vibration will often be felt as burning

 

Meditation, all practice/cultivation attunes us to finer vibrations more and more in harmonic with this note. Dis harmonic notes become more noticeable and show us where work is necessary. It becomes less and less possible for us to be un virtuous as again and again we feel the heat of discord and the repetitious pounding upon our systems energies.

 

We wish to become virtue - it is self - it is the all of everything.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Spotless

[dawei]

reflections can be found in the shadows, as well as shadows can be found in the reflections.

does good efforts/works of compassion lead to virtue ?

or does one need to be virtuous before they do the good efforts/works of compassion ?

compassion also comes in many different flavors.

merit is also in play here.

my pov te is power, one has power; capability and capacity to acts of kindness.

its the little things that often go unnoticed that matter

 

But I think the idea is too linear... that somehow one thing will simply lead to another thing. I think there is much more integration of the whole at work, and profoundly wrapped in that subtle thing called 'destiny/fate' without which none of it will come to pass anyways.

 

For me, It is Metaphysical Dao which connects us to Heaven and Earth, and Mystical De which connects us to Mankind.

 

This duality is not a fair or true construct but it helps to make my point (or so I hope).

 

Every breath, every sight, every sense we have of the environment speaks of Dao; External stimulus at work

 

Every interaction we have with mankind speaks of De; internal stimulus at work.

 

I've always held that De is Dao in you, which seems to work with my construct.

 

But at some point, the stimulus of internal and external dissolve and it is just a connection which knows no bounds. But when people start saying De is merit or built up or gained by some action... then I can't really agree. De is life-bestowed by Dao.

 

The christians say the mystery is "Christ in you"... I think they were on to something about De...

[dawei]

It is the core vibration, it is life - everything hovers around it.

 

When you are "in" this state a disruptive or discordant vibration will often be felt as burning

 

Meditation, all practice/cultivation attunes us to finer vibrations more and more in harmonic with this note. Dis harmonic notes become more noticeable and show us where work is necessary. It becomes less and less possible for us to be un virtuous as again and again we feel the heat of discord and the repetitious pounding upon or systems energies.

 

We wish to become virtue - it is self - it is the all of everything.

 

I was trying to formulate some comment which I think is along this line but probably less seeking (ie: meditation). It seems to me that the wide spectrum of experience is hard to put in an explanation that fits all... some had more immediate awareness of the vibrational state (even at birth) and some have come to that connection.

 

But if we can leave behind the necessity of any action, there is a core connection which itself makes itself known but we are not often aware of it.

 

If one were to count how many times a day they find this connection to the unknown playing out in life, I think they will find it happens more among our interactions with mankind than the environment... but I don't think there is supposed to be a difference, although some cultural conditioning may make one more prominent than another.

[zerostao]

"De is life-bestowed by Dao."

thats my view and why i said Te is power. i wouldnt say Te is merit either. and my questions are rhetorical

 

"It is Metaphysical Dao which connects us to Heaven and Earth, and Mystical De which connects us to Mankind."

i like this and it speaks to the power i refer to.

 

excellent post dawei, the other rhetorical question i have is can a true taoist alter their own fate/destiny ?

Edited November 26, 2014 by zerostao

[dawei]

excellent post dawei, the other rhetorical question i have is can a true taoist alter their own fate/destiny ?

 

IMO, no. That's what makes it fate/destiny... And it is not so much about the final outcome but the path as well.

 

This means it nullifies 'free-will' on some level but I think that is complicated by the insertion of the 'willful' aspect.

 

What we have is 'free-connection'... to everything on every level... we just are not listening or tuned-in for some things [yet].

 

Thus, our actions are responding to those levels we are listening to; limited-listening occurs, thus limited responses occur... and that is the limited-path one has.... but that is fate/destiny at that time.

 

One could bring in Wu Wei, etc but that would get more off-topic.

 

Trying to get back a bit...

 

One needs little explanation on Dao as anciently meaning PATH... although I hold to some shaman undertones in the ancient script, but I'll leave it at PATH (which can include mystical/spiritual paths the Shaman's represent).

 

So, how about DE?

 

A common interpretation, even based on older script parts, is an 'Upright Heart'. Although a heart is symbol for the spirit as well...

 

One of the oldest scripts some feel is the origin of DE is an EYE with a vertical line... Most attribute the idea of 'seeing' or 'looking' in the graph.

 

I elucidate this as: "Keeping an Eye on Heaven", or "An eye which comes from Heaven"... as if the eye was lowered on a string.

 

Later graphs put this along side a road... tying back to PATH... Dao De...

[Marblehead]

IMO, no. That's what makes it fate/destiny...

But if one does not hold to the concept of fate/destiny then the question cannot be answered.

[ChiDragon]

......., the other rhetorical question i have is can a true taoist alter their own fate/destiny ?

 

I think one will know the answer to that if the definition of a TRUE Taoist was known.

[dawei]

But if one does not hold to the concept of fate/destiny then the question cannot be answered.

 

That is a personal issue... not a spiritual or mystic one... we can't change what happens at that level...

[Trunk]

Thanks for the many and varied excellent replies. Too many good quotes to list.

Probably most of us agree that mystical immersion and virtue are at least related, though perhaps not always as in-sync as we'd like or hope.

 

Where my attention goes next is "mechanics and methods". How do each of us develop virtue?, if we've found practices that result in improved virtue the mechanics on how that was accomplished? Probably I could get something out of simply re-reading the thread from my slightly-shifted new perspective.

[manitou]

 

In my view and practice, Dao and De, Wisdom and Virtue, Wisdom and Compassion are inseparable. Wisdom is the recognition of truth, of our fundamental human nature.

 

I think this is the crux of it. The reversion to the One, just as the function of the Dao. As Steve said, 'wisdom is the recognition of truth, of our fundamental human nature.' That's where it lies. How do we get down to our fundamental human nature, the natural human being we are intended to be? How do we undo all the false teachings by well-intended people, our parents and teachers included? By going through self.

 

As we get well along on the enlightenment path, we reach a witness state, wherein we are capable of witnessing our own actions, listening to our own thoughts with intentional awareness. We become capable of deciding what mindset is most beneficial to our lives. Inevitably it is the mindset of kindness, of non-judgment, of compassion. When we become our own witnesses we see where we have fallen short of that criteria, and we take steps to correct it. Inadequately at first perhaps, but with practice (which IMO is "the true Practice") we can catch ourselves before the hurtful words come out; before the unwise reaction is taken, before the negative thought is thought. This takes many years to develop, at least in my estimation. This is something I take very seriously within my own self; I try daily to live within the boundaries of my higher self. Sometimes I fall short.

 

But day after day, month after month, year after year, it gets easier. It becomes more natural. I can speak only with the authority of my own experience, but my karma has changed dramatically in the recent years. Life is so very easy now because I'm not interfering or instigating nearly as much as I used to. I'm not trying to change anyone. I am at peace with change, whereas before I wanted assurances, to know that things were nailed down to my specifications.

 

I find myself breathing deeply, looking at the sky, smelling the trees every day. Even the pace I walk at has slowed considerably. I often remember to regard everyone as a Buddha or a Christ, because I use the little trick of mindfully looking in the eyes of people or animals, and knowing that the black spot of Awareness in the center of their eyes is the same black spot of Awareness in everyone. The I Am. The We Are.

 

I think that the things that consistently happen around us are a clue as to how our character is doing. If life is consistently bumpy, if we are consistently agitated or simmering at something, if all we care about is obtaining for ourselves....then life is not smooth at all. Every action has an equal and opposing reaction, and in this way we can measure our own karma.

 

When contortions are removed (and I'm one that believes that this takes concerted effort - although I know that there are some on this forum that think that it happens naturally and without effort) it is then that the grace and good will can manifest. If we are still tied up in knots, have resentments against people, feel paranoid or not good enough - these are all conditions that prevent the true voice within from being heard.

 

I think that Te is at the very heart of the matter, and that the Sage also had to go through life's lessons to become the Sage. Some might argue that he was born that way and never had a bad day in his life, but I don't think that's the case. He developed the 3 treasures of Sageness by an intentional and continual effort on his part, IMO.

[liminal_luke]

How do each of us develop virtue?

 

It´s easier for me to think about this question backwards: what conditions give rise to unvirtuous actions and unvirtuous ways of being in the world? For me, it´s any kind of internal disharmony or fragmentation. say between out of synch subpersonalities, that automatically gets projected out into the world where it mucks up interpersonal relationships. Everybody knows "as above, so below." Well, when it´s comes to virtue, we´ve got "as inside, so outside."

 

Take passive aggressiveness, for example. This pattern of unvirtue derives from a lack of internal congruence. You´ve got your underlying aggressive aspect fighting with a mealy-mouthed people pleasing aspect and that all gets played out in relationships in oppressively confusing ways.

 

Really though, any kind of internal unrest reflects back as external unrest, ie unvirtuous action.

 

So the question for those who would cultivate virtue is really, "how do I get all my parts to get along with each other?" The first step is to become aware of said parts. When one aspect of yourself goes rogue and hops out of range of consciousness trouble is surely right around the corner. A practice that makes us emotionally aware of more of ourselves is thus conducive to virtue. So even something so simple as breathing where we´re sending our breath--and thus our consciousness--into little explored nooks and crannies of the body increases awareness. It´s like having an internal family meeting.

 

All practices that are centering or involve the "central chanel" increase virtue. The same gunk that gets in the way of centeredness gets in the way of virtue, so it´s almost impossible to clear a free path into the very center of your being without becoming virtuous at the same time.

 

Liminal

Edited November 27, 2014 by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

Wonderful post, manitou...

I need to emphasize one important point:

 

Sometimes I fall short.

 

Me too...

A bit too often lately.

[9th]