Tai Chi, The Pyramid View of the Body, and grounding

[ChiDragon]

Now, I know what they mean by good grounding.

[silent thunder]

Interesting.

 

My visual of it is currently that of a pillar that starts about a hand length above my head, ending about the same length below the feet, it runs through the core of my being. There is a pyramid like this one, except that it's point starts at the top of the pole and it's three sided. This pyramid represents the grounding Earth/Yin side of the energy body.

 

There is another, inverted pyramid, forming the sacred geometric star tetrahedron. This three sided pyramid, whose downward point ends at the other side of the pole, accounts for Heaven/Yang energy.

 

The merging zone becomes Human energy and pulses in a field that radiates outward in the form of a toroidal sphere as far out, or as close in, as my awareness...

Edited November 22, 2014 by silent thunder

[ChiDragon]

I think the theme about "grounding", here, is about the stability of the body rather than the yin/yang energy. However, I tend to agree it has something to do with energy too. As I practice Tai Ji, I lower my stances, my body seems to be more stable and energetic.

As far "grounding" goes, in Chinese Tai Ji term; it is
穩如山: stable like a mountain.

Edited November 22, 2014 by ChiDragon

[GreytoWhite]

LMAO anything from Happeh can be disregarded... the guy is seriously effected by zou huo ru mo and is obsessed with his own "Big Eye Masturbation Theory" and all kindsa crap. He has some video about Yin bagua and how to imagine a hand coming up the asshole to "grab" the spine and move it that way. Michael Guen, his teacher, is a cult leader wannabe that packages his OnePrincipleLiving and BaguaYoga™ as a "my dick has healing POWAH" system to take advantage of the women that come to him to learn meditation or get acupuncture treatment. Yet again, ChiDragon presents the goods.

[ChiDragon]

LMAO anything from Happeh can be disregarded... the guy is seriously effected by zou huo ru mo and is obsessed with his own "Big Eye Masturbation Theory" and all kindsa crap. He has some video about Yin bagua and how to imagine a hand coming up the asshole to "grab" the spine and move it that way. Michael Guen, his teacher, is a cult leader wannabe that packages his OnePrincipleLiving and BaguaYoga™ as a "my dick has healing POWAH" system to take advantage of the women that come to him to learn meditation or get acupuncture treatment. Yet again, ChiDragon presents the goods.

 

The Happeh theories perhaps not so great to you but some do have merits. Thus I wouldn't participate in anything from Happeh to be disregarded.

Edited November 23, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Chang]

Moderator Message

We can disagree with both a teacher and a teaching without using offensive language to express our disapproval. A report has been made to the Mod team and is under consideration.

[PLB]

It is true that lowering the center of gravity of something makes it harder to tip over. But that has to be factored into how far apart the points of contact to the earth may be Low stances can deliver a lot of power but the lines of strength employed are highly vulnerable to forces applied perpendicular to the direction taken. For instance, It is not a good idea to square up against someone running toward you with a deep horse stance.

 

I am not sure it helps anybody to talk about having a root outside the requirement to not be double weighted. To be single weighted is not about having a load simply fall on one foot or another but the degree of freedom to change lines of support when circumstances change. Increasing this degree of freedom is largely about changes in the kwa. If I were to use a geometric model to describe it, I would be more inclined to see it as a cone that meets the earth at single point and becomes more stable as the kwa increases in circumfrence.

 

One instance of this relationship is the report given of Sun Lu Tang being able to keep a foot and shoulder against a wall and lift the opposite leg.

[ChiDragon]

It is true that lowering the center of gravity of something makes it harder to tip over. But that has to be factored into how far apart the points of contact to the earth may be Low stances can deliver a lot of power but the lines of strength employed are highly vulnerable to forces applied perpendicular to the direction taken. For instance, It is not a good idea to square up against someone running toward you with a deep horse stance.

IMO....

I believe the purpose of the horse stance is for one to keep in balance statically and dynamically. No one will be standing still to wait for the impact of the strike. It seems, to me, staying low is less vulnerable of being attacked. Most lightly the opponent would be in a dynamic mode and at a higher position which is more vulnerable than the one in a static mode. Hence, the one in a higher position is subject to be thrown off balance with less awareness.

 

[PLB]

What I was hoping to convey is the thought that having a root is not about measuring the vectors of this or that position as a matter of simple physics.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had only submitted the paragraph you didn't quote.

[doc benway]

I think that the graphics in the video show extremely poor posture.

Not sure if the authors know what good posture is based on what I see here.

[ChiDragon]

I am not sure it helps anybody to talk about having a root outside the requirement to not be double weighted. To be single weighted is not about having a load simply fall on one foot or another but the degree of freedom to change lines of support when circumstances change. Increasing this degree of freedom is largely about changes in the kwa. If I were to use a geometric model to describe it, I would be more inclined to see it as a cone that meets the earth at single point and becomes more stable as the kwa increases in circumfrence.

 

One instance of this relationship is the report given of Sun Lu Tang being able to keep a foot and shoulder against a wall and lift the opposite leg.

 

PLB....

If you think I am getting to far or out of line please let me know, than, I'll stop.

 

If you don't mind I would to have you clear some points for me.

What do mean by:

1. Single weighted

2. Doubled weighted

3. "If I were to use a geometric model to describe it, I would be more inclined to see it as a cone that meets the earth at single point and becomes more stable as the kwa increases in circumference."

a. What do you mean by a single point here....???

b. What is the maximum circumference do you allow the kwa to increase to....???

 

Edited December 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

The knees are wrong in the video = knee problems

[ChiDragon]

Yes, they passed beyond the toes.

This thread is about "grounding". However, all this points had been mentioned many times in the past. It is really nothing new. Is it ok that we assume they are understood....???

[mYTHmAKER]

Yes, they passed beyond the toes.

 

This thread is about "grounding". However, all this points had been mentioned many times in the past. It is really nothing new. Is it ok that we assume they are understood....???

No we cannot assume it is understood. You may know proper knee alignment, however, someone who is not as knowledgeable as you would think what is being shown is correct. So if you are going to show something that has something wrong it is your duty to point it out if you are the original poster.

[PLB]

ChiDragon,

When you ask what I mean by the difference between single and double weighted, are you asking about where that comes from in terms of the theory as it has been spoken/written in the practice of Tai Chi Chuan or are you asking what I am trying to say given what has been said/written in that tradition as a shared resource?

[ChiDragon]

PLB....
Let's say that I am not familiar or used to the terminology used here. I would say it is all of the above.

I am having trouble in understanding the single point with the cone analogy.

[PLB]

My geometrical model was just playing around with a more important point. The classical texts refer to weighting. I was hoping to find a site that included the original characters but I haven't suceeded yet. I will add later If I do. From this collection of Li I Yu:

 

Stand like a balance and move actively like a cart wheel. Keep your weight sunk on one side. If it is spread on two feet you will be pushed over easily. Coordinating the substantial is the key here. If that is achieved, then you can interpret strength. After this, by practicing vigorously, studying and remembering, one can reach the stage of total reliance on the mind. Forget yourself and yield to others. Go gradually, according to the right method. Above all, learn these techniques correctly; the slightest divergence will take you far off the path.

and

 

Practicing the form every day is the kung fu (way of practicing) of knowing yourself. When you start to practice, first ask yourself, "Did my whole body follow the previous principles or not?" If one little place didn't follow (them), then correct it immediately. Therefore, in practicing the form we want slowness not speed.

Push hands is the kung fu of knowing others. As for movement and stillness, although it is to know others, you must still ask yourself. If you arrange yourself well, when others touch you, you don't move a hair. Follow the opportunity and meet his jing (internal force) and let him naturally fall outward. If you feel someplace (in your body) is powerless, it is double weighted and unchanging. You must first seek (the defect) in yin and yang, opening and closing. Know yourself and know others: in one hundred battles you will win one hundred times. (Emphasis mine)

 

If you go to the Brennan translation site you will find the original characters along with his translations. I have read all the works concerning tai chi chuan on the site and each of them touch upon single versus double weighting in one way or the other. The following is an example from Yang Banhou's chapter 22

 

- [1a] Both sides fully heavy [“double pressure”] is wrong. It is too full. It is different from sinking.
- [1b] Both sides fully sinking is okay. It has to do with being ready to move. It is different from heaviness.
- [1c] Both sides fully floating [“double vacuum”] is wrong. It is too empty. It is different from lightness.
- [1d] Both sides fully light is okay. It has to do with natural nimbleness. It is different from floating.
- [2a] One side under-light and one side under-heavy is okay. To underdo means one side is stable. Therefore it is okay. Since to underdo is stable, it will not lose squareness and roundness.
- [2b] One side over-light and one side over-heavy is wrong. To overdo means neither side is stable. Therefore it is wrong. Since to overdo is unstable, it will lose squareness and roundness.
- [2c] One side under-floating and one side under-sinking is wrong, for it is not enough.
- [2d] One side over-floating and one side over-sinking [is wrong, for it] is too much.
- [3a] One side under-heavy and one side over-heavy, you will be not only sluggish but also unsquared.
- [3b] One side under-light and one side over-light, you will still be nimble but you will be unrounded.
- [3c] One side under-sinking and one side over-sinking, you will still be balanced but you will be unsquared.
- [3d] One side under-floating and one side over-floating, you will be not only scattered but also unrounded.
Both sides fully light [1d] is not a matter of floating, and thus it is nimbleness. Both sides fully sinking [1b] is not a matter of heaviness, and thus it is alertness. Thus it is said: “The best technique is both light and heavy [2a], half and half, thus you will have a balanced technique.” Anything beyond these three [1b, 1d, 2a] would be wrong.

When your inner naturalness is not obscured, it can be sent outward as purified energy, flowing into your limbs. If you do not exhaustively study these aspects of technique – lightness, heaviness, floating, sinking – it would be like digging a dry well. But if you possess squareness and roundness, then warding off, rolling back, pressing, and pushing will all be there inside and out down to their smallest detail, and you will have attained a great achievement, and then plucking, rending, elbowing, and bumping will also be squared and rounded. And so it is said: “Square but round, round but square.” Going beyond the shape [squareness OR roundness] takes you to the highest level [squareness AND roundness].

 

The above is just one example. I recommend reading many of the works on Brennan's site to see how deeply received this concept is in the practice.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Here go 0.02

I think the pyramid in the video is misleading just like the skeleton, you cant rely on that type of vector resultants just because you stand low, you have to factor in moving and generating power and stability in the whole of your body also. If you want to move then you cant be both very low and double weighted, thats like gluing your feet to the floor imo.

 

If i jnderstand PBL correctly he means the cone of power is pointing down because everything grows from the root, the balance and stability live there and incoming force ends up there as well as the cone representing the power and structure that can be weilded up and out from that point on the ground. I like that idea, did i get it right PBL?

 

Any step from a low horse stance will take more energy to even start off, and will be felt if a good listener has bridged you and it'll be easy to tip you over or pin you in place and push you shoulderst first into the ground.

For rooting height ans kwa factor in, as well as knowing wich of your legs is the longer one (im thinking hip alignment), how you use your knee joints and ankles. Also the feet and the belly/ldt expanding or contracting helps footwork and thereby rooting.

You can build a pyramid of resultant forces with your body and this might be an example for teaching purposes, but after that enoiugh,

If we talk triangular structure seen from thef ront of the body i could agree about a pyramidal shape, but i want the bottom corners started at the width of the feet and ended at the head.

 

Fighting low is good at times but only when combined with fighting high also. Entering a low horse stance can give you 10 cm face saving distance from a high punch depending in wich direction you step or if you just sink squarely on the spot. Oh but then with the exposed groin and your melon at chest height to your assailant, so its really not a place of great defense advantage but good targets might be open wide.

 

Edit: format and paragraphs domt register the first time on ipad.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[ChiDragon]

Here go 0.02

I think the pyramid in the video is misleading just like the skeleton, you cant rely on that type of vector resultants just because you stand low, you have to factor in moving and generating power and stability in the whole of your body also. If you want to move then you cant be both very low and double weighted, thats like gluing your feet to the floor imo.

 

If i jnderstand PBL correctly he means the cone of power is pointing down because everything grows from the root, the balance and stability live there and incoming force ends up there as well as the cone representing the power and structure that can be weilded up and out from that point on the ground. I like that idea, did i get it right PBL?

 

Well, I assume when one moves will keep in balance with the center of the body. Moving means every part of the body moves. One's feet will not glue to the ground. Beside, it doesn't matter how good your rooting is on the ground. If the upper body was off balance, then, the rooting won't do one any good. Perhaps it is only good for a tree because the root of a tree goes into the ground. By good rooting for a human, it means the whole body has to be in balance in order to maintain that rooting position.

 

Btw The power or energy was all generated within the body, then goes down to the root. The human body does not work like a tree. Human rooting means the ability for one to stay put on the ground under any circumstances.

Edited December 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

Well, I assume when one moves will keep in balance with the center of the body. Moving means every part of the body moves. One's feet will not glue to the ground. Beside, it doesn't matter how good your rooting is on the ground. If the upper body was off balance, then, the rooting won't do one any good. Perhaps it is only good for a tree because the root of a tree goes into the ground. By good rooting for a human, it means the whole body has to be in balance in order to maintain that rooting position.

 

Btw The power or energy was all generated within the body, then goes down to the root. The human body does not work like a tree. Human rooting means the ability for one to stay put on the ground under any circumstances.

 

Some people talk about rooting like a tree. I wasn't trying to say what they say but it is out there to be considered.

The images are trying to keep up with certain experiences, not the other way around. This is one of those places where arguments about the utility of imagination rage.

 

The line i quoted about a cart wheel is what i most wanted to express. It only touches the ground at one point at a time. When it moves it stays on the ground continuously (unless it has to catch some air). It rolls.

 

I would like to roll. Staying put at the same time would be cool.

 

Where is a Daoist when you need one?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Agreed, good rooting means staying put. I think our usage of the word root might be not exactly the same ChiDragon. But yes, if the upper body is off balance or out of alignment the footwork might not matter.

I think the power comes from the ground as well as from within the body. And absorbed power should either be immediately returned or lead to the ground by structure, the root. If you shove a practicioner who has adopted a suitable stance most of your impulse power will struggle against the power return from the root, right?

 

What im getting at is that there is always an opposite example because a martial art needs to cover, at least in principle, every possible situation in relation to training and fighting and energy work.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[PLB]

Rocky,

I don't know if you have pushed with any Chen style folk but they add an interesting element to the "invisibilty" thing;

They are very vulnerable in certain transitions but it doesn't matter because they know you can't take advantage of it at that very instance.

Space and time.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Rocky,

I don't know if you have pushed with any Chen style folk but they add an interesting element to the "invisibilty" thing;

They are very vulnerable in certain transitions but it doesn't matter because they know you can't take advantage of it at that very instance.

Space and time.

That is very cool! Never pushed any Chen people, sadly, only Yangists, some folks who studied at XuanWu WuDang and a handful of others.

 

I knew i shouldnt have edited the thing about invisibility out of my post! Gah!

 

What i said was in relation to ChiDragon mentioning that if one moves then everything moves, i mentioned that in some cases its the other way around, like when you do an "invisible kick" your upper body shouldnt move at all or else the kick isnt invisible, especially if you're bridged to a good listnener. Concealing the yi to an opponent mus mean that the bridge is silent while the body moves.

Its very hard to conceal intent while double weighted is my point.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[ChiDragon]

 

PLB....

If you think I am getting to far or out of line please let me know, than, I'll stop.

 

If you don't mind I would to have you clear some points for me.

What do mean by:

1. Single weighted

2. Doubled weighted

3. "If I were to use a geometric model to describe it, I would be more inclined to see it as a cone that meets the earth at single point and becomes more stable as the kwa increases in circumference."

a. What do you mean by a single point here....???

b. What is the maximum circumference do you allow the kwa to increase to....???

 

 

Okay, I think I know what are these all meant.

Single weighted is to apply pressure to one leg.

Double weighted is to apply pressure to both legs.

 

There are two ways to apply pressure(weighted) to the legs, in Chinese terms, are 實(solid) and no pressure is 虛(hollow).

 

From a point of view of Tai Ji Quan per the OP. Despite to the accuracy of the posture, it was suggested to bend the legs as the basic requirement to meet the criteria as specified in the video. The criteria is to lower oneself and set root to the ground, so to speak.

 

In most of the videos, one will see that all Tai Ji practitioners always have their legs bent one or the other; and always have one leg(single weighted) on the ground. They never kick with both legs off the ground to meeting the rooting requirement. The purpose of rooting is to have a good ground leverage and a pivot point for stability and balance.

 

I love to hear more comments. Thanks.

Edited December 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

that video was useless and painful to watch, presented a singular concept and lacked almost all the underlying fundamentals to have presented the point well. it taught nothing of grounding, or rooting for that matter.