[TBOPB1C01] Agrippa Book One Chapter One

[BaguaKicksAss]

Chapter One

 

How Magicians Collect Virtues from the Three-fold Worlds is Declared in these Three Books. Seeing there is a Three-fold World—Elementary, Celestial and Intellectual—and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the virtues thereof, so that the very Original and Chief Worker of all doth by angels, the heavens, stars, elements, animals, plants, metals and stones convey from Himself the virtues of His Omnipotency upon us, for whose service He made and created all these things: Wise men conceive it no way irrational that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each World, to the same very original World itself, the Maker of all things and First Cause, from whence all things are and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these virtues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new virtues from above. Hence it is that they seek after the virtues of the Elementary World, through the help of physic, and natural philosophy in the various mixtions of natural things; then of the Celestial World in the rays, and influences thereof, according to the rules of Astrologers, and the doctrines of mathematicians, joining the Celestial virtues to the former: Moreover, they ratify and confirm all these with the powers of divers Intelligences, through the sacred ceremonies of religions. The order and process of all these I shall endeavor to deliver in these three books : Whereof the first contains Natural Magic, the second Celestial, and the third Ceremonial. But I know not whether it be an unpardonable presumption in me, that I, a man of so little judgment and learning, should in my very youth so confidently set upon a business so difficult, so hard and intricate as this is. Wherefore, whatsoever things have here already, and shall afterward be said by me, I would not have anyone assent to them, nor shall I myself, any further than they shall be approved of by the universal church and the congregation of the faithful.

[Nungali]

Ch 1 .... all good. but the 'rays' thing ... as a 'medium of influence' ...I used to ascribe to that, but now I think 'sympathetic influence' comes about by other means ?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Ch 1 .... all good. but the 'rays' thing ... as a 'medium of influence' ...I used to ascribe to that, but now I think 'sympathetic influence' comes about by other means ?

 

What do you mean by sympathetic influence when it comes to the stars, planets and etc.?

 

Next time I'm staring at stars I'm going to check to see if I feel that the energy coming from them to me is via "rays" or not .

 

The bit about sympathetic influence I know of is that is I have a piece of your hair (a part of you), and I use it attached to a namepaper and candle, with the purpose of making you post all of your alchemical secrets on TTBs, that is is much much more likely to work than if I had no such part of you. Oh hell even if it was a pen you used to own. I'm going to figure that you mean using the symbols of said stars and planets for a magic with them? Speaking of stars, boy do I love Agrippa's star talismans! They work extremely well. Looking forward to that chapter!

[Michael Sternbach]

Chapter 1:

 

Why shouldn't there be etheric "rays" coming from the stars? This was generally assumed in ancient astrology, magic and alchemy. Even Nikola Tesla believed in something like this.

 

From my experience, those rays can even be seen by the eye under certain circumstances. There is an illustration in the "Mutus Liber" showing what they look like to psychic perception - they come "raining down" on Earth.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[BaguaKicksAss]

Chapter 1: Why shouldn't there be etheric "rays" coming from the stars? This was generally assumed in ancient astrology, magic and alchemy. Even Nikola Tesla believed in something like this.

 

I've always understood etheric more as the nearly physical dense energy you get with manifestations and such.... never thought of it being the same stuff relating to and around stars... hmmmm.....

 

Of course there's also the magnetic pull to look at, the moon isn't the only lump of rock up there which does that from what I understand .

 

Interesting stuff.

[Michael Sternbach]

All the planets and stars are emanating their "aura" like living beings (which they are). Some of their emanations belong to the physical universe; others don't.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Ch 1 .... all good. but the 'rays' thing ... as a 'medium of influence' ...I used to ascribe to that, but now I think 'sympathetic influence' comes about by other means ?

 

I think that you may be reading both too much and too little into this, too much of later ages and not enough of traditional cosmology. The rays are like the rays of sunlight, but the very fact that they are light rays should lead us to ask, "What was light to Agrippa?", not project into him what we think they might be. To jump ahead and little I will quote one of my favorite passages from Chapter XLIX (49), "Of Light, etc.":

 

Light also is a quality that partakes much of form, and is a simple act, and a representation of the understanding: it is first diffused from the Mind of God into all things, but in God the Father, the Father of Light, it is the first true light; then in the Son a beautifull overflowing brightness, and in the Holy Ghost a burning brightness, exceeding all Intelligencies; yea, as Dyonisius saith, of Seraphins, In Angels therefore it is a shining intelligence diffused, an abundant joy beyond all bounds of reason yet received in divers degrees, according to the Nature of the intelligence that receives it; Then it descends into the Celestiall bodies, where it becomes a store of life, and an effectuall propagation, even a visible splendor . . . in men, it is a clear discourse of reason, an knowledge of divine things, and the whole rationall . . . (Esoteric Archive, Agrippa Volume One, Chapter 49)

 

This is no mere mechanical ray, this is a ray of understanding and intelligence, in the modern theory, information. I would recommend Chapter 2 of Physics in Mind, by Werner Loewenstein, "Information Arrows" for an interesting and relevant modern discussion.

 

 

 

Edit: I accidentally cut off part of the quote about Celestial body, added: ", where it becomes a store of life, and an effectuall propagation, even a visible splendor"

Edited November 19, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Nungali]

What do you mean by sympathetic influence when it comes to the stars, planets and etc.?

 

I meant 'rays' ... in relation to this bit ; " then of the Celestial World in the rays, and influences thereof, according to the rules of Astrologers, and the doctrines of mathematicians, joining the Celestial virtues to the former: "

 

Next time I'm staring at stars I'm going to check to see if I feel that the energy coming from them to me is via "rays" or not .

 

Well, on the physical level , perhaps 'wavicles'

 

The bit about sympathetic influence I know of is that is I have a piece of your hair (a part of you), and I use it attached to a namepaper and candle, with the purpose of making you post all of your alchemical secrets on TTBs, that is is much much more likely to work than if I had no such part of you. Oh hell even if it was a pen you used to own. I'm going to figure that you mean using the symbols of said stars and planets for a magic with them? Speaking of stars, boy do I love Agrippa's star talismans! They work extremely well. Looking forward to that chapter!

 

Yep ... same observation here ... but I suppose the connection I am wondering about , in your postulated case, is the 'connection back to me' that makes the spell work ... (I hope you know what I mean ... I knew if I posted here , it was going to be be difficult to use the right words )

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Looks like this will get messy.

 

Michael, I am kinda purist, but it's more like, I want to examine one perspective in great depth before moving to the next perspective. It is like trying to understand a person. From the outside in, we can "understand" what a person is going through, but we may not sympathise with him. To symphathise with him, we need move into his shoes, to "be" like him, to take on his mindset and values. This approach, both outside in and inside out, is richer and more comprehensive. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I agree these can get a little messy, but it could be good in order to answer people's concern's as one goes along. I don't know if you have read the tread from the beginning, but I was at great pains to make clear the context of Christianity at the time Agrippa wrote as part of my analysis of his letter to the reader.

 

To symphathise with him, we need move into his shoes, to "be" like him, to take on his mindset and values.: I completely agree with this approach and it reminded me of something I posted earlier:

 

 

But first, I need to digress in the digression into historical method and I will start by quoting from one of my favorite books on the Scientific Revolution, The Origins of Modern Science 1300-1800, by Herbet Butterfield, because it not only provides insight into some of the problems of history, but also an interesting root metaphor that can be the most valuable idea I share with you:

 

Of all forms of mental activity, the most difficult to induce even in the minds of the young, who may be presumed not to have lost their flexibility, is the art of handling the same bundle of data as before, but placing them in a new system of relations with one another by giving them a different framework, all of which virtually means putting on a different kind of thinking-cap for the moment. (The Origins of Modern Science 1300-1800 on Scribd, p. 1, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

putting on a different kind of thinking-cap: This root metaphor and the psychological technique that is implied by it is probably the most important thing that I learned from this book. Granted I was already thinking in terms that made this passage make perfect sense to me, bringing together under the image of a thinking-cap all that I had thought about modeling, etc. was a profound idea, that in some ways presages everything I was later to learn about in studying NLP. To understand Agrippa, you need to think like Agrippa and put on the thinking cap of a believing Roman Catholic of the learned tradition circa 1500. This doesn't mean that you need to keep it on, as a matter of fact you need to learn to put on and take off a series of Thinking-caps and learn to create meta Thinking-caps that allow you to rise to a greater understanding than either of the lesser ones allows you to achieve.

 

So, do yourself a favor, read at least the first chapter of this book, if you read all of the book, you will be better able to understand the Scientific Revolution and be better understand the underlying principles of Agrippa's worldview. You'll thank me for this recommendation, really you will.

 

Finally, I will note for all of you who may consider this to be nothing but an exercise in 'intellectualism' for its own sake. Nothing could be further from the truth. Granted I enjoyed all this research, but mostly because I love solving problems and creating maximizing strategies. The motive for all the historical research which I undertook was to answer questions that came up within the context of my practice and ultimately they have profound practical consequences for how I think about and practice magic. I hope that by reading this thread my research will enlarge and enhance the thinking and practice of all who read it.

 

To understand Agrippa in his own terms is a laudable goal and the only real way to benefit from the Three Books of Occult Philosophy, it is a lot of work, but absolutely worth the effort.

[Larxene]

Passages from the book will be in black. My comments are in blue.

 

 

 

"CHAPTER 1: How Magicians Collect vertues from the three-fold World, is declared in these three Books."

 

 

I am not sure if I am just imagining things, but whoever translated this might have used the caps to emphasise certain things in the chapter titles. In modern texts, every word will have capital letters except for things like "a", "an", "the" and so on.

 

One thing to note is the capitalised "World", and the fact that it is singular. Agrippa seems to view the world as one unified thing that is folded into three (different?) layers.

 

 

"Seeing there is a three-fold World, Elementary, Celestiall, and Intellectual, and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the vertues thereof, so that the very original, and chief Worker of all doth by Angels, the Heavens, Stars, Elements, Animals, Plants, Metals, and Stones convey from himself the vertues of his Omnipotency upon us, for whose service he made, and created all these things..."

 

 

No wonder our grandpas complained about our short attention span; they were reading books like these!

 

Anyway, this quote seems to be saying that there exists a Creator who created the angels, the heavens, the stars, etc. Everything that is "inferior" is "governed by" its superior. But I am not sure what "inferior" and "superior" means, and I don't understand what meaning should we place to the "governed by". It could mean that superior things "manage" inferior ones, like how a supervisor manages his workers...but I have a feeling there is another meaning here.

 

Since every superior governs the inferior, the "vertues" of the former is present in the latter. I take this to mean that the nature or essence of superior things are infused in inferior things. Then, since the Creator created everything, his own essence or nature is contained in every single thing in the World. This makes sense. For example, a meticulous person would create reports that are devoid of spelling errors and are organised neatly. His writing tends to be neat. The way he speaks is careful and somewhat pedantic. Every single thing he does or creates contains his quality in varying degrees.

 

The tricky term here is "vertue". What does this refer to? My interpretation is "essence" or "nature" or "quality", but it is not a dictionary definition.

 

 

"...Wise men conceive it no way irrationall that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each World, to the same very originall World it self, the Maker of all things, and first Cause, from whence all things are, and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these vertues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new vertues from above."

 

 

This might be alluding to the nine spheres (introduced by Plato?). We are in the first sphere, that of the Earth. The next sphere closest to us is that of the Moon. Next is Mercury, Venus, Sun...until Saturn, which is the eighth sphere. The final sphere is the sphere of the fixed stars. The further we move away from Earth, and the closer we are to the fixed star, the more "perfect" we become and the closer we are to God (which may be represented by the Form of the Good).

 

So anyway, Agrippa asserts that it is possible for us to ascend through these spheres and become closer to the Creator, who created all things (here perhaps we see the Christian influence, although Christianity was arguably influenced by earlier Greek philosophies as well). The part in bold reminds me of a certain Christian prayer.

 

The next part I am not so sure. Apparently we can enjoy the "vertues", whatever they are, and we can obtain new "vertues" from above. Perhaps this is talking about magical rituals. The idea that there are some things which are infused with these vertues to a great degree, again, this reminds me of a kind of a Platonic idea. The material world is imperfect and changing, while the Form is more perfect and unchanging. An example would be a chair. A chair can perform its functions (for sitting or standing on, or putting books) for a period of time, after which it may lose its essence. For example, a chair might eventually break. Then it would not be able to perform its functions anymore. This demonstrates the imperfection of matter.

 

 

 

Okay, I'll stop here. I still have school work to do . Comments will be appreciated.

 

 

 

Larxene

[Nungali]

I suppose 'superior' is central or pure or originating form .... considering the complex hierarchies that were in place ( still evident in Enochian and Kabbalistic systems today).

 

I imagine at the beginning Agrippa will have to write in passing about some things that will be outlined in detail later when he gets to those sections . One has to start somewhere in an intro to a subject.

 

 

The poem ... been a while since I read that ... I like it, it outlines things we still do today (and part of the work I used to do in BD agriculture ... and get paid for it ! I am sure todays Moon planting guides and our BD timetables {and ideas about 'cosmic flux' and Moon Saturn oppositions, etc } are somewhat different from then ... but the principle seems the same).

 

The 3 requirements / types of philosophy are interesting. " and in the Aspects, and Figures of the Stars, upon which depends the sublime virtue and property of every thing". Perhaps this also demonstrates the idea of superior influence ? ... every living thing 'below' them ( I used em that time as I didnt mean 'below' in just a physical sense)

 

And the elements start of with a strong theme of circulation. I like that. I think the principle of circulation is an important natural process that we try to emulate in many arts .. and may well be a crucial process if not the crucial process.

 

It seems a bit of a confusing way to start, with the four elements like that ... with the ' modifying qualities' attached to the Elements , instead of a precursor (but that is the way it worked back then I guess ... and I am still coming from an agricultural and modern hermetic perspective - ie. start with light , temperature, moisture ( and the polarities of each) .

 

Also I liked the way me explained why his order of elements were the way they appear here; by sharing secondary qualities.

 

( It annoys me when people just declare stuff, without saying what their reasons are. )

[BaguaKicksAss]

Here are my personal interpretations of what Agrippa says

 

 

How Magicians Collect Virtues from the Three-fold Worlds is Declared in these Three Books.

 

Basically to collect the properties and energies from. For example bringing the energy and power (for specific magical influence of course) from say a particular star, into a particular stone, water, tincture, or etc.

 

 

Seeing there is a Three-fold World—Elementary, Celestial and Intellectual—

 

Yep the elements and the physical, the various divine (and perhaps not so divine) beings, and us/our minds/concepts/the intellectual world we have created. Hmmm slightly similar to the Daoist body, spirit and mind?

 

 

 

and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the virtues thereof, so that the very Original and Chief Worker of all doth by angels, the heavens, stars, elements, animals, plants, metals and stones convey from Himself the virtues of His Omnipotency upon us, for whose service He made and created all these things:

 

Sure this could be seen as that whole hierarchy of beings thing, I see it a bit further than that even (if that in the first place; I'm not sure yet). So take the star of Algol for example... we have some herbs, and some stones, and some symbols which all have a bit of Algol within them, I mean more than other stones, plants etc. which aren't related at all, or less related. So in the sense of Algol (or any other star, or planet, or element, or force) it comes in degrees. Also any spirits of Algol (only speaking of one particular type of spirit is limiting perhaps), including Angels, are also part of the forces of Algol, which can be worked with to bring about the influence of Algol into your life (if you are bored and want to wreak havoc that is lol).

 

As we know already, from Agrippa's writings, as well as about everyone else's writings, most view that the Divine or whatever you want to call it, is within every single thing. So in this case, we are just calling upon and utilizing very specific aspects, slices, or bits of this force/being/deity/god/omipotance.

 

Also within each plant, metal, animal, etc. we could perhaps be speak of the varying degrees of Algolness, as in alchemical transformations of such substances.

 

 

Wise men conceive it no way irrational that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each World, to the same very original World itself, the Maker of all things and First Cause, from whence all things are and proceed;

 

In this thread there was mention of the standard 9 spheres; still wondering if Agrippa used this particular number (there were many different layouts back in the day, anywhere from 7 to 30, or perhaps not even meaning a layout with the planets being a sphere each and in a particular order of one each. There are an infinite number of things which one would refer to as "worlds" when exploring the magical universe. For example, this is very similar to experiences many magicians have had: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse There are also various worlds which house various spirits, energies and such.

 

From this, we can also assume that each world Agrippa is speaking of, would also have Algol aspects and items within it.

 

 

and also to enjoy not only these virtues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new virtues from above.

 

So in other words, bring the energies you are wanting to work with, in directly from Source. And also perhaps utilize these for the alchemical transformations of the materials mentioned earlier (and oneself too in the process of course).

 

 

Hence it is that they seek after the virtues of the Elementary World, through the help of physic, and natural philosophy in the various mixtions of natural things; then of the Celestial World in the rays, and influences thereof,

 

So we are basically finding, bringing forth, and utilizing the virtues of the specific plants, animals, metals, etc. for the particular work we are after. Interesting he talks about mixtions, so combining plant, animal, metal, stone would perhaps be the ideal operation. Of course then utilizing the stars and/or planets and/or Angels and Divine being/s to enhance things.

 

 

according to the rules of Astrologers, and the doctrines of mathematicians, joining the Celestial virtues to the former:

 

The Angels of the particular stars and astrological signs being called upon alongside (to enhance, deepen and expand) the particular energies of these forces I figure.

 

 

Moreover, they ratify and confirm all these with the powers of divers Intelligences, through the sacred ceremonies of religions.

 

Call up the old Gods to help out . They didn't name a heap of them after the planets for nothing... Well also he is referring to the various magical ceremonies, which go back to ancient times, when they were used in a religious context.

 

 

The order and process of all these I shall endeavor to deliver in these three books : Whereof the first contains Natural Magic, the second Celestial, and the third Ceremonial. But I know not whether it be an unpardonable presumption in me, that I, a man of so little judgment and learning, should in my very youth so confidently set upon a business so difficult, so hard and intricate as this is. Wherefore, whatsoever things have here already, and shall afterward be said by me, I would not have anyone assent to them, nor shall I myself, any further than they shall be approved of by the universal church and the congregation of the faithful.

 

While Agrippa was most likely actually Christian.... one must also keep in mind that he would have been burned, jailed or hung if he wrote from a perspective which was not very very Christian flavored. Though I figure anyone who could write a book such as this easily saw beyond one particular beleif system or structure.

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Magic is a faculty of wonderful virtue, full of most high mysteries, containing the most profound contemplation of most secret things, together with the nature, power, quality, substance and virtues thereof, as also the knowledge of whole Nature, and it doth instruct us concerning the differing and agreement of things amongst themselves,

 

This last bit is interesting, "it doth instruct us concerning the differing and agreement of things amongst themselves". This could speak of how to work with various things in multiples which get along and work well together, to enhance their properties, create something entirely new from mixing two or more things which work well together, or even to create something based on how the items differ from one another. One can purposefully make use of items which do not get along, or are opposed to one another, for various magical purposes .

 

 

whence it produceth its wonderful effects, by uniting the virtues of things through the application of them one to the other, and to their inferior suitable subjects, joining and knitting them together thoroughly by the powers and virtues of the superior Bodies.

 

So combine various ingredients, then get the stars, planets, elements, or spirits involved . Yep, that sums up much of magical practice.

 

 

This is the most perfect and chief Science, that sacred and sublimer kind of Philosophy, and lastly the most absolute perfection of all most excellent Philosophy. For seeing that all regulative Philosophy is divided into Natural, Mathematical and Theological: (Natural Philosophy teacheth the nature of those things which are in the world, searching and inquiring into their causes, effects, times, places, fashions, events, their whole and parts, also The Number and the Nature of those things,

 

So the various plants and stones and etc., and the Divine force and spiritual workings... but I unfortunately am not sure what he means by mathematical; astronomy perhaps?

 

 

Called Elements—what Fire, Earth, Aire forth brings; From ivhence the Heavens their beginnings had; Whence Tide, whence Bainboiu, in gay colors clad. What makes the Clouds that gathered are, and black, To send forth Lightnings, and a Thundering crack; What doth the Nightly Flames, and Comets make; Whiat makes the Earth to swell, and then to quake; What is the Seed of Metals, and of Gold; What Virtues, Wealth, doth Nature^s Coffer hold.

 

Here he is obviously talking about the physical nature of these elements, but we already know there are 3 levels to each element (from the first chapter), so we can see this on a deeper level, which combines the 3 important principals of nature. Elemental, celestial and intellectual.

 

 

All these things doth Natural Philosophy, the viewer of Nature, contain, teaching us, according to Virgil’s Muse:

 

Whence all things flow—

Whence Mankind, Beast; whence Fire, whence Rain and Snow;

Whence Earthquakes are; why the whole Ocean beats

Over his banks and then again retreats;

Whence strength of Herbs, whence Courage, rage of Brutes

All kinds of Stone, of creeping Things, and Fruits,

But Mathematical Philosophy teacheth us to know the quantity of natural bodies, as extended into three dimensions, as also to conceive of the motion and course of celestial bodies.

As in great haste,

What makes the golden Stars to march so fast?

What makes the Moon sometimes to mask her face.

The Sun also, as if in some disgrace?

And, as Virgil sings:

How the Sun doth rule with twelve Zodiac Signs,

The Orb thats measured round about with Lines—

It doth the Heavens^ Starry Way make known,

And strange Eclipses of the Sun and Moon;

Arcturns also, and the Stars of Bain,

The Seven Stars likewise, and Charles, his wain;

Why Winter Suns make towards the West so fast;

What makes the Nights so long ere they be past?

All which are understood by Mathematical Philosophy.

Hence, by the Heavens ive may foreknow

The Seasons all; times for to reap and sow.

And when ’tis fit to launch into the deep.

And when to war, and when in peace to sleep;

And when to dig up trees, and them again

To set, that they may bring forth amain.

 

So astrology in relation to the timing of various works. To me it seems as though he is again talking of how some things are considered lesser parts of other things; the stones and herbs (etc.) as "lesser" (perhaps meaning not as refined or specific) parts of the stars, planets, etc. Also it seems to say that the stars are parts of the sun, so that whole lesser and greater thing again.

 

 

Now Theological Philosophy, or Divinity, teacheth what God is, what the Mind, what an Intelligence, what an Angel, what a Devil, what the Soul, what Religion, what sacred Institutions, Rites, Temples, Observations, and sacred Mysteries are.

 

Seems we have Agrippa's definition of theological practice here .

 

 

It instructs us also concerning Faith, Miracles, the virtues of Words and Figures, the secret operations and mysteries of Seals; and, as Apuleius saith, it teacheth us rightly to understand and to be skilled in the Ceremonial Laws, the equity of Holy things and rule of Religions. But to recollect myself.)

 

How words, figures and seals (and most likely talismans as well under figures or seals), are used. Awesome, those are some fun chapters . So, so far we have magic is done by and is the divine, the angels, then the various stars and planets, and elements (and perhaps more in this category), utilized as well as shown through the elements, then down to the herbs, stones and other physical objects containing said specific energy, and how to work with these forces utilizing seals, symbols and the like. Sounds good (and standard magical practice) so far.

 

Second half coming later....

[Larxene]

Some short comments:

 

 

 

Michael,

 

Glad to be here . I always enjoy an active and lively community.

 

 

 

BKA,

 

Yes, but only if we can find the time to do the linking.

 

Regarding the nine spheres, I have only started reading Agrippa, so I can't answer your question on whether he actually mentioned it. What I know is that his work was probably influenced by the Neo-platonists' works, whose works were in turn founded on some of Plato's ideas.

 

But observe this: the three-fold World is the elemental/natural, celestial and the intellectual. The natural fold corresponds to the Earth, which is made of the four elements fire, air, water and earth. (Potentially Off-Topic Sidenotes: in Geomancy, fire and air are considered active, while water and earth are passive. In traditional astrology, the fire and air signs, or triplicities as they are called, are of the diurnal sect, while the water and earth triplicities are nocturnal. There's more to this but I'll stop here.) The celestial fold consists of the seven planets in traditional astrology, each of which has its own "crystalline" spheres, as Plato would have it.

 

Finally, we come to the intellectual part of the cosmos. The fixed stars are in the final sphere and is closer to the Form of the Good (which is either a representation of God or God himself). Why are the fixed stars closer to God? Ancient philosophers noted that the things in this world seem rather transient and undergo changes as time passes. A question arose: how can something appears to change and yet be "real"? (Calculus freaks, start ranting now.) Plato explained his solution using the Allegory of the Cave. Briefly, the things we see in this world are just reflections of the things which are more fundamental of the world, and more real. These things which are more "real" and fundamental, are called the Forms or Ideas. They are unchanging, and therefore part of the world which Plato calls "the world of being" (if I remember correctly.) In contrast, the world we see, which is the Earth, is part of the "world of becoming".

 

It still doesn't answer the question, why are fixed stars considered closer to the Good? Well, its name should give it away. The "fixed" part of the stars refers to the fact that their position on the ecliptic (from a geocentric perspective) do not appear to change as time passes. On the other hand, the lights and the planets have erratic movement; their "celestial longitudes", as some call them, change throughout the year. Therefore, Plato concluded that the FIXED stars are closer to the Forms because of their seemingly static position in the sky. On other hand, the wandering stars ("planet" was derived from Greek planetes, meaning wanderer), especially the Moon are closer to the Earth's condition due to their erratic movements. They are closer to the world of becoming.

 

So ascending towards the fixed stars meant getting closer to God and understanding the nature of reality.

 

 

 

Okay, that was kind of long, sorry. But why is it called the "intellectual" world? Plato claimed that these Forms cannot be perceived by the senses, and can only be apprehended by reason, in other words, the intellect.

 

So here we have a strong correlation between the three-fold World and the nine spheres. I might be projecting my own thoughts though.

 

This is why I said that the "ascend by the same degrees through each World" may have alluded to the nine spheres. The nine spheres idea may also explain the superior governing the inferior. In this case, the intellectual fold and its influences are the most superior, followed by the celestial influences, then lastly the elemental/natural.

 

 

 

Regarding your comment on the body, spirit and mind, Plato and Aristotle had their respective versions. For Plato, it was the Tripartite Theory of the Soul. I don't remember what was Aristotle's version, but he kind of modified his teacher's theory. Anyway, there was this picture that reminds me of the tripartite theory: I think it's similar to the Chariot picture in Tarot.

 

Okay, I'm out.

 

 

 

Larxene

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Passages from the book will be in black. My comments are in blue.

 

 

 

"CHAPTER 1: How Magicians Collect vertues from the three-fold World, is declared in these three Books."

 

 

I am not sure if I am just imagining things, but whoever translated this might have used the caps to emphasise certain things in the chapter titles. In modern texts, every word will have capital letters except for things like "a", "an", "the" and so on.

 

One thing to note is the capitalised "World", and the fact that it is singular. Agrippa seems to view the world as one unified thing that is folded into three (different?) layers.

 

 

"Seeing there is a three-fold World, Elementary, Celestiall, and Intellectual, and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the vertues thereof, so that the very original, and chief Worker of all doth by Angels, the Heavens, Stars, Elements, Animals, Plants, Metals, and Stones convey from himself the vertues of his Omnipotency upon us, for whose service he made, and created all these things..."

 

 

No wonder our grandpas complained about our short attention span; they were reading books like these!

 

Interesting and spot-on observations, Larxene.

 

A few comments in elaboration of certain things that you have touched upon.

 

The three worlds in Agrippa's model are different from, yet analogous to each other; and so are the entities inhabiting them.

 

 

Anyway, this quote seems to be saying that there exists a Creator who created the angels, the heavens, the stars, etc. Everything that is "inferior" is "governed by" its superior. But I am not sure what "inferior" and "superior" means, and I don't understand what meaning should we place to the "governed by". It could mean that superior things "manage" inferior ones, like how a supervisor manages his workers...but I have a feeling there is another meaning here.

 

Since every superior governs the inferior, the "vertues" of the former is present in the latter. I take this to mean that the nature or essence of superior things are infused in inferior things. Then, since the Creator created everything, his own essence or nature is contained in every single thing in the World. This makes sense. For example, a meticulous person would create reports that are devoid of spelling errors and are organised neatly. His writing tends to be neat. The way he speaks is careful and somewhat pedantic. Every single thing he does or creates contains his quality in varying degrees.

 

The tricky term here is "vertue". What does this refer to? My interpretation is "essence" or "nature" or "quality", but it is not a dictionary definition.

 

 

"...Wise men conceive it no way irrationall that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each World, to the same very originall World it self, the Maker of all things, and first Cause, from whence all things are, and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these vertues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new vertues from above."

 

 

This might be alluding to the nine spheres (introduced by Plato?). We are in the first sphere, that of the Earth. The next sphere closest to us is that of the Moon. Next is Mercury, Venus, Sun...until Saturn, which is the eighth sphere. The final sphere is the sphere of the fixed stars. The further we move away from Earth, and the closer we are to the fixed star, the more "perfect" we become and the closer we are to God (which may be represented by the Form of the Good).

 

Agrippa naturally presupposes the ancient model of the universe consisting of crystal spheres around the earth, like every intellectual of his time. The concept was founded by the Greek astronomer Eudoxus and went through many mutations by different authors and over time, but remained the universally accepted cosmological model in the Islamic, Jewish as well as Christian dominions. Agrippa would certainly have been familiar with its Christian version attributed to Dionysius the Aeropagite in which the Holy Trinity resides beyond the spheres. Agrippa's "intellectual world" refers to the divine level of existence. ("Intellectual" in the ancient texts always meaning that something is of an archetypal or divine nature - it's not referring to making that grey mass between your ears steam. ) The divine light (etheric energy) is constantly being poured down through the spheres into the lower worlds.

 

 

 

 

Entities in any of the kingdoms receive, embody and radiate the etheric light according to their own nature. Those of an analogous nature share the same kind of "celestial virtue" and are "sympathetic" with each other.

 

 

So anyway, Agrippa asserts that it is possible for us to ascend through these spheres and become closer to the Creator, who created all things (here perhaps we see the Christian influence, although Christianity was arguably influenced by earlier Greek philosophies as well). The part in bold reminds me of a certain Christian prayer.

 

The next part I am not so sure. Apparently we can enjoy the "vertues", whatever they are, and we can obtain new "vertues" from above. Perhaps this is talking about magical rituals. The idea that there are some things which are infused with these vertues to a great degree, again, this reminds me of a kind of a Platonic idea. The material world is imperfect and changing, while the Form is more perfect and unchanging. An example would be a chair. A chair can perform its functions (for sitting or standing on, or putting books) for a period of time, after which it may lose its essence. For example, a chair might eventually break. Then it would not be able to perform its functions anymore. This demonstrates the imperfection of matter.

 

Yes, the idea is that we can ascend through the spheres, eventually leaving the boundaries of space-time behind when crossing over Saturn. Whence we will come closer to the "intellectual world" of the archetypes, gods, angels - whatever they were called in different cultures. Of course, as a true Magician, you won't be satisfied with mystical unification with the divine powers but you will draw them right down into your earthly home.

 

That things are imbued with certain virtues was taught in Neo-Platonism and Hermeticism; in a magical context it can be found i.e. in the Asclepius.

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Here are my personal interpretations of what Agrippa says

 

This is a nice summary. A few remarks:

 

Basically to collect the properties and energies from. For example bringing the energy and power (for specific magical influence of course) from say a particular star, into a particular stone, water, tincture, or etc.

 

I know of people projecting starlight into water by a telescope and marketing the products as "Starlight Elixirs". They rock...

 

 

Yep the elements and the physical, the various divine (and perhaps not so divine) beings, and us/our minds/concepts/the intellectual world we have created. Hmmm slightly similar to the Daoist body, spirit and mind?

 

Except that the intellectual world for Agrippa is something that far transcends our mental boundaries and has an objective reality - it's the mind of God; it's His concepts!

 

 

 

 

Sure this could be seen as that whole hierarchy of beings thing, I see it a bit further than that even (if that in the first place; I'm not sure yet). So take the star of Algol for example... we have some herbs, and some stones, and some symbols which all have a bit of Algol within them, I mean more than other stones, plants etc. which aren't related at all, or less related. So in the sense of Algol (or any other star, or planet, or element, or force) it comes in degrees. Also any spirits of Algol (only speaking of one particular type of spirit is limiting perhaps), including Angels, are also part of the forces of Algol, which can be worked with to bring about the influence of Algol into your life (if you are bored and want to wreak havoc that is lol).

 

As we know already, from Agrippa's writings, as well as about everyone else's writings, most view that the Divine or whatever you want to call it, is within every single thing. So in this case, we are just calling upon and utilizing very specific aspects, slices, or bits of this force/being/deity/god/omipotance.

 

Also within each plant, metal, animal, etc. we could perhaps be speak of the varying degrees of Algolness, as in alchemical transformations of such substances.

 

It's probably true that everything has all the "virtues" in it, but to varying degrees.

 

 

 

In this thread there was mention of the standard 9 spheres; still wondering if Agrippa used this particular number (there were many different layouts back in the day, anywhere from 7 to 30, or perhaps not even meaning a layout with the planets being a sphere each and in a particular order of one each. There are an infinite number of things which one would refer to as "worlds" when exploring the magical universe. For example, this is very similar to experiences many magicians have had: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse There are also various worlds which house various spirits, energies and such.

 

From this, we can also assume that each world Agrippa is speaking of, would also have Algol aspects and items within it.

 

That's a good clarification.

 

 

 

So in other words, bring the energies you are wanting to work with, in directly from Source. And also perhaps utilize these for the alchemical transformations of the materials mentioned earlier (and oneself too in the process of course).

 

 

 

So we are basically finding, bringing forth, and utilizing the virtues of the specific plants, animals, metals, etc. for the particular work we are after. Interesting he talks about mixtions, so combining plant, animal, metal, stone would perhaps be the ideal operation. Of course then utilizing the stars and/or planets and/or Angels and Divine being/s to enhance things.

 

 

The Angels of the particular stars and astrological signs being called upon alongside (to enhance, deepen and expand) the particular energies of these forces I figure.

 

 

 

 

 

Call up the old Gods to help out . They didn't name a heap of them after the planets for nothing... Well also he is referring to the various magical ceremonies, which go back to ancient times, when they were used in a religious context.

 

 

While Agrippa was most likely actually Christian.... one must also keep in mind that he would have been burned, jailed or hung if he wrote from a perspective which was not very very Christian flavored. Though I figure anyone who could write a book such as this easily saw beyond one particular beleif system or structure.

 

Yes, he most certainly had to be careful not to get grilled.

[Michael Sternbach]

This last bit is interesting, "it doth instruct us concerning the differing and agreement of things amongst themselves". This could speak of how to work with various things in multiples which get along and work well together, to enhance their properties, create something entirely new from mixing two or more things which work well together, or even to create something based on how the items differ from one another. One can purposefully make use of items which do not get along, or are opposed to one another, for various magical purposes .

 

 

So combine various ingredients, then get the stars, planets, elements, or spirits involved . Yep, that sums up much of magical practice.

 

 

So the various plants and stones and etc., and the Divine force and spiritual workings... but I unfortunately am not sure what he means by mathematical; astronomy perhaps?

 

Most likely. Natural, Mathematical and Theological Philosophy referring to the natural, celestial and intellectual world respectively.

 

Here he is obviously talking about the physical nature of these elements, but we already know there are 3 levels to each element (from the first chapter), so we can see this on a deeper level, which combines the 3 important principals of nature. Elemental, celestial and intellectual.

 

 

So astrology in relation to the timing of various works. To me it seems as though he is again talking of how some things are considered lesser parts of other things; the stones and herbs (etc.) as "lesser" (perhaps meaning not as refined or specific) parts of the stars, planets, etc. Also it seems to say that the stars are parts of the sun, so that whole lesser and greater thing again.

 

The virtues in the world of the celestial bodies would be pure as they are in the realm of Ether or Quintessence beyond the Sub-lunar Sphere. Obviously, a lot of Alchemical practice is about freeing and purifying the virtues in a particular material.

 

Seems we have Agrippa's definition of theological practice here .

 

 

How words, figures and seals (and most likely talismans as well under figures or seals), are used. Awesome, those are some fun chapters . So, so far we have magic is done by and is the divine, the angels, then the various stars and planets, and elements (and perhaps more in this category), utilized as well as shown through the elements, then down to the herbs, stones and other physical objects containing said specific energy, and how to work with these forces utilizing seals, symbols and the like. Sounds good (and standard magical practice) so far.

 

Second half coming later....

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[BaguaKicksAss]

This is a nice summary. A few remarks:

 

 

I know of people projecting starlight into water by a telescope and marketing the products as "Starlight Elixirs". They rock...

 

 

Except that the intellectual world for Agrippa is something that far transcends our mental boundaries and has an objective reality - it's the mind of God; it's His concepts!

 

 

It's probably true that everything has all the "virtues" in it, but to varying degrees.

 

 

That's a good clarification.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, he most certainly had to be careful not to get grilled.

 

To clarify, by mental/intellectual third/plane etc. I include such things as the astral plane, and magic using with thought/mind.

 

Neat idea about using a telescope . Based off the older idea of using clear crystals I figure... and perhaps stronger?

Edited November 20, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[FraterUFA]

One thing to note is the capitalised "World", and the fact that it is singular. Agrippa seems to view the world as one unified thing that is folded into three (different?) layers.

 

Three layers, different yet not separate. Just as your "ghost" is inside you and part of you, a part of your being and a linkage between still finer parts of you that you hardly suspect. The various parts of what you think of as being yourself exist along a spectrum.

 

"Seeing there is a three-fold World, Elementary, Celestiall, and Intellectual, and every inferior is governed by its superior, and receiveth the influence of the vertues thereof, so that the very original, and chief Worker of all doth by Angels, the Heavens, Stars, Elements, Animals, Plants, Metals, and Stones convey from himself the vertues of his Omnipotency upon us, for whose service he made, and created all these things..."

 

 

 

Anyway, this quote seems to be saying that there exists a Creator who created the angels, the heavens, the stars, etc. Everything that is "inferior" is "governed by" its superior. But I am not sure what "inferior" and "superior" means, and I don't understand what meaning should we place to the "governed by". It could mean that superior things "manage" inferior ones, like how a supervisor manages his workers...but I have a feeling there is another meaning here.

 

Yes. One way to think of it is as like a hierarchy, with the Unity being at the very top. This Unity divides, further and further. At each level there is a relationship to that which came "first" and that which comes "later".

 

Another way to think of it is as inner (superior) to outer (inferior). Inner and outer are but one, but the outer is "governed" by the inner. This has a philosophical meaning as well as a practical one. In this worldview, man is near the very top of the hierarchy, (but below God) and thus governs all things in this world.

 

What is interesting to think about is that that as you get closer to Unity ("superior"), the many different "things" you are familiar with become fewer and fewer. This philosophy implies many things that will fly in the face of common beliefs. For instance, your HGA probably isn't just "yours".

 

As I said before, it is a spectrum but the Hermeticists also think of them as being the physical/objective world, the inner/intellectual world, and the spiritual world. "Above" that is Unity. You are certainly familiar with two of these worlds, which are really one. Isn't that interesting?

 

Since every superior governs the inferior, the "vertues" of the former is present in the latter. I take this to mean that the nature or essence of superior things are infused in inferior things. Then, since the Creator created everything, his own essence or nature is contained in every single thing in the World. This makes sense. For example, a meticulous person would create reports that are devoid of spelling errors and are organised neatly. His writing tends to be neat. The way he speaks is careful and somewhat pedantic. Every single thing he does or creates contains his quality in varying degrees.

 

The tricky term here is "vertue". What does this refer to? My interpretation is "essence" or "nature" or "quality", but it is not a dictionary definition.

 

I think of this as being along the lines of power, influence, or the flow of energy/matter/information. When the source of this virtue is cut off, the inferior dies, disintegrates into its components, and transitions from the perceivable world.

 

"...Wise men conceive it no way irrationall that it should be possible for us to ascend by the same degrees through each World, to the same very originall World it self, the Maker of all things, and first Cause, from whence all things are, and proceed; and also to enjoy not only these vertues, which are already in the more excellent kind of things, but also besides these, to draw new vertues from above."

 

 

This might be alluding to the nine spheres (introduced by Plato?). We are in the first sphere, that of the Earth. The next sphere closest to us is that of the Moon. Next is Mercury, Venus, Sun...until Saturn, which is the eighth sphere. The final sphere is the sphere of the fixed stars. The further we move away from Earth, and the closer we are to the fixed star, the more "perfect" we become and the closer we are to God (which may be represented by the Form of the Good).

 

Yes, it is very much this thing. Plato didn't introduce the spheres btw, this is a much older teaching which goes as far back as Sumeria.

 

So anyway, Agrippa asserts that it is possible for us to ascend through these spheres and become closer to the Creator, who created all things

 

Yes.

 

The next part I am not so sure. Apparently we can enjoy the "vertues", whatever they are, and we can obtain new "vertues" from above. Perhaps this is talking about magical rituals. The idea that there are some things which are infused with these vertues to a great degree, again, this reminds me of a kind of a Platonic idea. The material world is imperfect and changing, while the Form is more perfect and unchanging. An example would be a chair. A chair can perform its functions (for sitting or standing on, or putting books) for a period of time, after which it may lose its essence. For example, a chair might eventually break. Then it would not be able to perform its functions anymore. This demonstrates the imperfection of matter.

 

It is talking about removal of the barriers between ones physical self and their source. This is not something that the world wants you to do.

 

Okay, I'll stop here. I still have school work to do . Comments will be appreciated.

Larxene

 

Decent analysis. :-)

 

Fr. UFA

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yes, it is very much this thing. Plato didn't introduce the spheres btw, this is a much older teaching which goes as far back as Sumeria.

 

Oh? References please? Why yes I am looking for more reading material in that direction

[Nungali]

Does Agrippa speak of this particular layout later on in his book? I don't actually remember, been quite some time since I read it cover to cover.

 

I took it the same way as Larxene ... the celestial hierarchy modeled on the spheres

 

Personally I took it to mean either the various worlds of the astral, etheric and etc. planes, or perhaps the myriad of neverending worlds similar but different to ours.

 

To me , thats all a bit too vague ... and modern ... so I assume Agrippa is more closely aligned with the sphere model .... the 'Russian Doll' 'theory of the Universe'

[Nungali]

What does BD stand for?

 

 

Come on ... we did this before and already had the jokes ... and I cant believe you have suffered more 'short-term memory loss' ( ) than I have !

 

" The Seasons all; times for to reap and sow.

...

And when to dig up trees, and them again

To set, that they may bring forth amain."

 

http://www.biodynamics.in/Rhythm.htm

Edited November 20, 2014 by Nungali

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited November 23, 2014 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Here are my personal interpretations of what Agrippa says

 

 

Basically to collect the properties and energies from. For example bringing the energy and power (for specific magical influence of course) from say a particular star, into a particular stone, water, tincture, or etc.

 

 

Yep the elements and the physical, the various divine (and perhaps not so divine) beings, and us/our minds/concepts/the intellectual world we have created. Hmmm slightly similar to the Daoist body, spirit and mind?

 

 

Sure this could be seen as that whole hierarchy of beings thing, I see it a bit further than that even (if that in the first place; I'm not sure yet). So take the star of Algol for example... we have some herbs, and some stones, and some symbols which all have a bit of Algol within them, I mean more than other stones, plants etc. which aren't related at all, or less related. So in the sense of Algol (or any other star, or planet, or element, or force) it comes in degrees. Also any spirits of Algol (only speaking of one particular type of spirit is limiting perhaps), including Angels, are also part of the forces of Algol, which can be worked with to bring about the influence of Algol into your life (if you are bored and want to wreak havoc that is lol).

 

As we know already, from Agrippa's writings, as well as about everyone else's writings, most view that the Divine or whatever you want to call it, is within every single thing. So in this case, we are just calling upon and utilizing very specific aspects, slices, or bits of this force/being/deity/god/omipotance.

 

Also within each plant, metal, animal, etc. we could perhaps be speak of the varying degrees of Algolness, as in alchemical transformations of such substances.

 

 

In this thread there was mention of the standard 9 spheres; still wondering if Agrippa used this particular number (there were many different layouts back in the day, anywhere from 7 to 30, or perhaps not even meaning a layout with the planets being a sphere each and in a particular order of one each. There are an infinite number of things which one would refer to as "worlds" when exploring the magical universe. For example, this is very similar to experiences many magicians have had: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse There are also various worlds which house various spirits, energies and such.

 

From this, we can also assume that each world Agrippa is speaking of, would also have Algol aspects and items within it.

 

 

So in other words, bring the energies you are wanting to work with, in directly from Source. And also perhaps utilize these for the alchemical transformations of the materials mentioned earlier (and oneself too in the process of course).

 

 

So we are basically finding, bringing forth, and utilizing the virtues of the specific plants, animals, metals, etc. for the particular work we are after. Interesting he talks about mixtions, so combining plant, animal, metal, stone would perhaps be the ideal operation. Of course then utilizing the stars and/or planets and/or Angels and Divine being/s to enhance things.

 

 

The Angels of the particular stars and astrological signs being called upon alongside (to enhance, deepen and expand) the particular energies of these forces I figure.

 

 

Call up the old Gods to help out . They didn't name a heap of them after the planets for nothing... Well also he is referring to the various magical ceremonies, which go back to ancient times, when they were used in a religious context.

 

 

While Agrippa was most likely actually Christian.... one must also keep in mind that he would have been burned, jailed or hung if he wrote from a perspective which was not very very Christian flavored. Though I figure anyone who could write a book such as this easily saw beyond one particular beleif system or structure.

 

 

I think I see two aspects here;

 

One of correspondence by association; (eg Mars : Ruby : blood : activity : heat : etc . )

 

One by 'intimate holistic connection - ie. it is all connected anyway and all contain parts of the other, but, different influences (angels, Gods and aspects of the planets - i.e 'timing' ) 'draw out' certain qualities ... they 'unbond' them so their effect can pass into other things.

 

I think, the first assumes a connected 'affinity' and the second is a process that gives an affinity ( a bit like the transference of magnetism to another metal).

Edited November 20, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

The application of “superiors” in the “binding” of natural phenomena and other matters is a very important aspect of the practice of Natural Magic. In modern times, except for some people with, shall we say, uncommon sexual proclivities, binding probably has a bad name. There is of course a lot more to the magical art of “binding”, then is ordinarily considered, but as far as binding goes, who wouldn't want to live in a locale one found perfect, in an abode which one found “enchantingly” attractive, and do work that one found to be amazingly fulfilling? Any binding that falls short of this is just incompetent magic.

 

 

Hmmm ... now I am contemplating I may have practised some 'competent magic' after all ! ( 4 outa 4 aint bad ).

 

[Actually this caused a falling out with a group I was associated with ; on the one hand they seemed to think my view and practice of magic was ... ... chuckles behind my back and comments that got back to me .... all that shit ...

 

... and on the other hand they all seemed to want the 4 things above - couldn't quiet manifest it and couldnt understand how it managed to fall in my lap.

 

.... bye-bye then

Edited November 20, 2014 by Nungali