Are thogal visions nimittas?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Are thogal visions also known as nimittas?

It appears to be the case. The implications are very interesting. That would mean the Theravada's breath meditation and Dzogchen thogal are very similar. I know there will be vehement denial of this proposition, but look at the facts..

 

Here is a description of some thogal visions

 

By continuing to practice, visions of the five lights transform so that they appear in a fragmented fashion, vertically, horizontally, tally, like spear-points, similar in aspect to [holes in] a black yak-hair hair tent, and like the squares of a chess board; and those lights pervade everything in front of you. Moreover, the bindus also transform so that they are like a mirror, and awareness appears in the manner of a running deer. By continuing to practice, visions of the absolute space appear pear in the aspects of a jewel lattice, [725] lattices and half-lattices tices of light, checkered, radiant, like spear-points, and a multilayered layered stupa, a thousand-petaled lotus, a halo, the sun and moon, a castle, a sword, [a vajra,]' a wheel, and like the shape of a fisheye. eye. Moreover, that light fills the environment in which you live. The bindus become like brass bowls

 

That is from the book called NAKED AWARENESS Practical Instructions on The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen by Karma Chagme with commentary by Gyatrul Rinpoche Translated by B. Alan Wallace

 

Now take a look at the description of nimittas by Ajahn Brahm in his book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond:

 

 

Sometimes whole scenes can appear clearly in the mind. There might be landscapes, buildings, and people, familiar or strange. Such visions might be fascinating to watch, but they are of little use.

...

A less elaborate nimitta, which is still overcomplicated, can be called the firework nimitta. As the name suggests, this consists of many bursts of light coming and going, never lasting very long and exhibiting much movement. There may be several bursts of light at the same time, even of different colors. Again, this firework nimitta is a sign that the mind is still too complicated and very unstable. If one wants, one can enjoy the sideshow for a short time, but one should not waste too much time there.

...

 

The best nimitta, the one most suitable for jhāna, begins by resembling the full moon at midnight in a sky free of clouds. It rises unhurried when the beautiful breath softly disappears. It takes three or four seconds to establish its presence and settle down, remaining still and very beautiful before the minds eye. As it remains without effort it grows brighter, more luminous. Soon it appears brighter than the sun at midday, radiating bliss. It becomes by far the most beautiful thing one has ever seen. Its beauty and power will often feel unbearable.

 

...

When the nimitta is very bright, it is also very beautiful. It usually appears unearthly in the depth of its beauty and more wonderful than anything one has ever experienced before. Whatever the color of the nimitta, it is a thousand times richer than anything that can be seen with ones own eyes. Such awesome beauty will captivate ones attention, making the nimitta remain.

 

 

The other thing that made me think that nimittas are thogal visions relates to that last bit about the beautiful colors. According to the second thogal vision, you find beautiful colors.

 

According to Jean Luc Archard, these are the characteristics of the thogal second vision:

Still according to the Dra Thelgyur, the visionary elements that characterize this vision are the arising of extremely vivid colors (kha dog, whereas in the first vision colors were rather rare), the appearence of vertical lines, concentric rays, various kinds of Luminous Discs or sphere (thig le), as well as divine bodies (sku), etc.

 

As I persist in a combination of Buddho breath mantra repetition and gazing (I've combined the two) I am seeing the most beautiful colors, shapes and multicolored lights imaginable. Made me wonder... We all have the same human makeup, don't we?

 

Up until this point, for most meditations, I would usually see a very bright pulsing light which habitually appeared about 45 minutes into the meditation. The light would appear for a few seconds and then be gone. It was only since I started to practice the Buddho mantra, matching the breath with Bu ddho, that the colors and lights started appearing sooner, lasting longer and have become spectacular.

 

Further, I can precipitate the bright lights by upping my concentration and focusing on a single point with my gaze during the meditations. It seems that the missing ingredient is fixing the gaze, combining the gaze with the Buddho mantra meditation.

 

Maybe Dzogchen thogal and Theravada jhanas are tapping into the same phenomenon.!!!

 

Interesting proposition isn't it?

Edited November 24, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[ralis]

Are thogal visions also known as nimittas?

It appears to be the case. The implications are very interesting. That would mean the Theravada's breath meditation and Dzogchen thogal are very similar. I know there will be vehement denial of this proposition, but look at the facts..

 

Here is a description of some thogal visions

 

That is from the book called NAKED AWARENESS Practical Instructions on The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen by Karma Chagme with commentary by Gyatrul Rinpoche Translated by B. Alan Wallace

 

Now take a look at the description of nimittas by Ajahn Brahm in his book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond:

 

The other thing that made me think that nimittas are thogal visions relates to that last bit about the beautiful colors. According to the second thogal vision, you find beautiful colors.

 

According to Jean Luc Archard, these are the characteristics of the thogal second vision:

As I persist in a combination of Buddho breath mantra repetition and gazing (I've combined the two) I am seeing the most beautiful colors, shapes and multicolored lights imaginable. Made me wonder... We all have the same human makeup, don't we?

 

Up until this point, for most meditations, I would usually see a very bright pulsing light which habitually appeared about 45 minutes into the meditation. The light would appear for a few seconds and then be gone. It was only since I started to practice the Buddho mantra, matching the breath with Bu ddho, that the colors and lights started appearing sooner, lasting longer and have become spectacular.

 

Further, I can precipitate the bright lights by upping my concentration and focusing on a single point with my gaze during the meditations. It seems that the missing ingredient is fixing the gaze, combining the gaze with the Buddho mantra meditation.

 

Maybe Dzogchen thogal and Theravada jhanas are tapping into the same phenomenon.!!!

 

Interesting proposition isn't it?

 

I believe I have seen evidence of this in the Visuddhimagga, but only remember that the Buddha was referring to the breath meditation.

[Anderson]

Are thogal visions also known as nimittas?

It appears to be the case. The implications are very interesting. That would mean the Theravada's breath meditation and Dzogchen thogal are very similar. I know there will be vehement denial of this proposition, but look at the facts..

 

Here is a description of some thogal visions

 

That is from the book called NAKED AWARENESS Practical Instructions on The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen by Karma Chagme with commentary by Gyatrul Rinpoche Translated by B. Alan Wallace

 

Now take a look at the description of nimittas by Ajahn Brahm in his book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond:

 

The other thing that made me think that nimittas are thogal visions relates to that last bit about the beautiful colors. According to the second thogal vision, you find beautiful colors.

 

According to Jean Luc Archard, these are the characteristics of the thogal second vision:

As I persist in a combination of Buddho breath mantra repetition and gazing (I've combined the two) I am seeing the most beautiful colors, shapes and multicolored lights imaginable. Made me wonder... We all have the same human makeup, don't we?

 

Up until this point, for most meditations, I would usually see a very bright pulsing light which habitually appeared about 45 minutes into the meditation. The light would appear for a few seconds and then be gone. It was only since I started to practice the Buddho mantra, matching the breath with Bu ddho, that the colors and lights started appearing sooner, lasting longer and have become spectacular.

 

Further, I can precipitate the bright lights by upping my concentration and focusing on a single point with my gaze during the meditations. It seems that the missing ingredient is fixing the gaze, combining the gaze with the Buddho mantra meditation.

 

Maybe Dzogchen thogal and Theravada jhanas are tapping into the same phenomenon.!!!

 

Interesting proposition isn't it?

 

Whenever you write about thogal or various experiences you may be having you seem to forget the most fundamental element without which thogal visions do not develop beyond a certain point, natural state.

If you are not in the natural state when practicing thogal the vissions will NOT DEVELOP beyond a certain point.

You need to understand this.

That whatever you are going through, whatever experiences nimiitas, colours, aparent thigles you may be having they are not of the realm of natural state but that of the mind.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Anderson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Whenever you write about thogal or various experiences you may be having you seem to forget the most fundamental element without which thogal visions do not develop beyond a certain point, natural state.

If you are not in the natural state when practicing thogal the vissions will NOT DEVELOP beyond a certain point.

You need to understand this.

That whatever you are going through, whatever experiences nimiitas, colours, aparent thigles you may be having they are not of the realm of natural state but that of the mind.

What exactly are you saying here?

Are you saying that unless you have a transmission, sactioned by a Buddhist Lama, you will not reach the natural state?

Are you saying that I have no understanding or experience of the natural state?

Are you saying that when Tenzin Wangyal, Karma Shagme, Alan Wallace etc use the approach of performing practices to enter the natural state and then after realizing that state, have a knowledgeable teacher confirm it, that they are all wrong?

Are you saying that it is possible, through visualization/imagination to create all the experiences, but none of those experiences are real or valid because they are of the mind?

Are you saying the natural state and the mind are two separate things?

Are you saying that the pure crystal Kati channel, that which has no blockages and goes directly to the source in the heart can be construed by the conceptual mind?

The whole point of developing the crystal Kati channel is that it is the one source from which visions arise, which are not constructed by the imagination or conceptual mind.

Are you saying that breath meditation does not eventually put you in the natural state?

What exactly are you saying here?

[wangchungman]

Yes this is. But also talks about this in the Upa-Kilesa Sutta. Buddha talks about beautiful forms. And what stops the beautiful forms are all the hopes and fears related to samsara. But that if one can remove all those hindrances then the beautiful forms don't stop. And this is enlightenment. But there is no distant instruction about this forms as such. It's full import does not begin to be described until the inner dzogchen tantras. The Theravada meditation manuals talk about kalapas. Dots of light. This is becoming a more Yangti flavor.

Edited November 24, 2014 by wangchungman

[ralis]

What exactly are you saying here?

Are you saying that unless you have a transmission, sactioned by a Buddhist Lama, you will not reach the natural state?

 

The Buddhist Lamas (Dharma Kings) have convinced their followers that they control the transmission and who receives the highest teachings. This is nothing more than authoritarianism on their part.

 

Your questions are spot on!

[Anderson]

Are there people who've achieved the result of dzogchen without transmission?

Name one...

[ralis]

Are there people who've achieved the result of dzogchen without transmission?

Name one...

 

Now you are making this exclusive to a select group. Dzogchen is not a sectarian experience except to those who want power over others. Back in 1989, Norbu emphasized that Dzogchen is not sectarian, but it is only one name given to a common experience among a diverse number of spiritual groups.

Edited November 24, 2014 by ralis

[ralis]

I am wondering what the biological components are for these visions?

[Anderson]

I am wondering what the biological components are for these visions?

But they cant have biological components since they are natural formations arising from the primordial basis

[ralis]

But they cant have biological components since they are natural formations arising from the primordial basis

 

All phenomena arise from the primordial base. These visions are not occurring in a vacuum, but need a biological component to experience such visions. There is no separation.

[Anderson]

 

All phenomena arise from the primordial base. These visions are not occurring in a vacuum, but need a biological component to experience such visions. There is no separation.

But the basis doesnt need a biological support. A Buddha's existence is beyond the limits of an organism as understood by biological sciences. If the basis would need a support to manifest its purpose we would call that dependently arisen.

[ralis]

But the basis doesnt need a biological support. A Buddha's existence is beyond the limits of an organism as understood by biological sciences. If the basis would need a support to manifest its purpose we would call that dependently arisen.

 

You are perceiving the vision biologically through your senses. That is why it is called a vision.

Edited November 24, 2014 by ralis

[Anderson]

 

You are perceiving the vision biologically through your senses. That is why it is called a vision.

Which is the sense that functions in the dark when there are lights and vissions of all kinds still appearing?

[ralis]

Which is the sense that functions in the dark when there are lights and vissions of all kinds still appearing?

 

If you are perceiving the visions, then there is a biological component in the senses i.e, brain that is perceiving. Think for yourself.

[wangchungman]

 

But they cant have biological components since they are natural formations arising from the primordial basis

They do. They are the fire and wind element metabolism, mixed w earth, food, water, blood and awareness, space. These refine into colored lights. Seeing these colors rigpa arising from the basis. Herein lies the magic.

Edited November 25, 2014 by wangchungman

[stefos]

The Buddhist Lamas (Dharma Kings) have convinced their followers that they control the transmission and who receives the highest teachings. This is nothing more than authoritarianism on their part.

 

Your questions are spot on!

 

You are right! This is the bottomline truth.

 

Spiritual abuse is quite real.......As is karmic repercussion, hence the takeover of Tibet by China due to Tibets' karma!

 

You know, Guru Norbu gives transmission openly....He never said "Do Ngondro first and we'll see" because he said that Guru Garab Dorje taught Dzogchen and gave transmission this way as well. I don't know if Mahamudra mandates Ngondro!

It would seem that Tilopa's Mahamudra instructions had ZERO to do with Ngondro practice which is why I believe the "new Ngondro preliminary" to be contrived. I understand that a pupil needs to have the right motive and such, that is a moot point.

 

I'm very leery of single individuals to whom people go to for emplowerments & teachings, hence the need to be critical in ones examination of a teacher or Guru, whether for the 6 yogas of Naropa or Mahamudra or Dzogchen transmission.

 

Stefos

[wangchungman]

Ngondro is a Tibetan invention. But the practices of prostrations, Vajrasattva recitation, mandala offering, etc, are Indian. What's Asian and not Indian is setting up a Herculean number of each to complete. Remember this Herculean number to complete was the Tibetan accomodation for the Herculean feats Indian masters imposed before teaching, like jumping off of cliffs or living for years on an island in the middle of a poison lake infested by starving dogs. If you think karma will not throw up huge obstacles despite your best efforts to avoid them you will come to wish a master had forced you into hard labor instead. This is the tantric approach of putting yourself in the masters hands. In dzogchen, the master puts you in control. That doesn't make it any easier.

Edited December 5, 2014 by wangchungman