Origin and return

[hagar]

What does returning to the root, or origin mean for you guys?

 

h

[Marblehead]

From (star) dust to (star) dust.

 

That's bottom line.

 

However, during our lifetime, returning to our innocence of the child. (No, that's not an easy one.)

 

Origin implies our original innocence.

[silent thunder]

For me, one of the reasons I was drawn to Taoism was my observations of nature and the cyclical nature of existence.

 

Returning to the root is the ultimate in recycling.

 

For me, at this point, it resolves down to awareness of source.

[dawei]

It is just a riddle like the 'chicken and the egg'...

 

If one doesn't just smile at the idea, knowing full well it is the universe telling the joke to see if we have been pulled too far away from the realm of One-Not-One, into an idea of 'I exist, and it is about my thoughts/ideas'... and this is nothing about my return to something which I am actually never apart from... then one is full of ideas of returning to something they are apart from...

[soaring crane]

What does returning to the root, or origin mean for you guys?

 

h

 

返還功 Fan Huan Gong :-)

 

http://www.fanhuangong.com

 

Quick, random thoughts on what Fanhuangong means for me:

 

Reliving and sustaining the sensations I felt when I took in my first breath of air.

Reactivatiing the wonder I felt at that moment.

Restoring my physical condition to that which prevailed at the moment in my life when I was most vigorous.

[Taoist Texts]

What does returning to the root, or origin mean for you guys?

 

h

It is a techinical formula in alchemy and is not possible or comprehensible without a successful practice of alchemy.

[hagar]

From (star) dust to (star) dust.

 

That's bottom line.

 

However, during our lifetime, returning to our innocence of the child. (No, that's not an easy one.)

 

Origin implies our original innocence.

Original innosence; what does it mean, beyond our ideas about it?

 

For me, one of the reasons I was drawn to Taoism was my observations of nature and the cyclical nature of existence.

 

Returning to the root is the ultimate in recycling.

 

For me, at this point, it resolves down to awareness of source.

What do you imply by "recycling"?

 

It is just a riddle like the 'chicken and the egg'...

 

If one doesn't just smile at the idea, knowing full well it is the universe telling the joke to see if we have been pulled too far away from the realm of One-Not-One, into an idea of 'I exist, and it is about my thoughts/ideas'... and this is nothing about my return to something which I am actually never apart from... then one is full of ideas of returning to something they are apart from...

So, beyond the riddle, and beyond ideas, if we are allready That, how do we return to it?

返還功 Fan Huan Gong :-)

 

http://www.fanhuangong.com

 

Quick, random thoughts on what Fanhuangong means for me:

 

Reliving and sustaining the sensations I felt when I took in my first breath of air.

Reactivatiing the wonder I felt at that moment.

Restoring my physical condition to that which prevailed at the moment in my life when I was most vigorous.

This includes an actual practice of remeberance? Thus, the root is then the first moment of life?

 

It is a techinical formula in alchemy and is not possible or comprehensible without a successful practice of alchemy.

What part of alchemical practice are you pointing to?

 

The reason I inquire about this is that there is very little consistency about this very central point of the "root" (no pun intended), and the notion of "return". In my experience, this is where all practices in Daoism point; the return, the root, the origin.

 

h

[Marblehead]

Original innocence; what does it mean, beyond our ideas about it?

As a child we did things based on how we were inspired by our true nature. We just lived. Did things. There was no shame in what we did because, for us, it was natural for us to do that whatever. We didn't even understand the duality of right/ wrong, good/bad.

 

But then we got scolded when we did something that our parents, peers or others that "they" didn't want you to do. This is the beginning of the loss of our innocence, of our original nature.

 

The challenge then is to find a lifestyle that is compatible with our original nature, causes us no inner conflicts, but yet is more-or-less acceptable by society, in general.

 

This requires a lot of unlearning and a lot more learning. No easy task.

[The Tao Of Alex]

Live, Die, Repeat...

Alex

[Taoist Texts]

So, beyond the riddle, and beyond ideas, if we are allready That, how do we return to it?

 

Question: they say that each person has everything that he needs (for enlightenment) in sufficiency, then why do we need training?

Answer: if you don’t train your heart it will be like gold hidden in mineral ore, if the great melter puts it into a kiln, melts away the dirt, refines out the true thing, then it will become gold, if not it will remain ore. The practitioners also can stay in the state of ore if they keep dimness and pollution in their heart. But if they make their correct intent into the great melter, their saintly wisdom into the great carpenter, till not a hair of pollution left, this would be your initial unpolluted true heart. Once the true is complete it will not return into falsity anymore, protect it properly, guard it firmly, so it is self-sufficient and fit to use, which is a timeless, eternally bright, priceless gem.

 

(Wáng zhì-jǐn, 1177—1263, Yuan dynasty, first generation teacher of Quanzhen)

 

 

 

 

What part of alchemical practice are you pointing to?

 

The reason I inquire about this is that there is very little consistency about this very central point of the "root" (no pun intended), and the notion of "return".

The return is the true practice process; the root is the end result of that practice. It is defined variously as 'rising to Heaven', 'obtaining the yang spirit-body', 'the body in the mundane world, the heart in Heavens' etc.

 

 

In my experience, this is where all practices in Daoism point; the return, the root, the origin.

very true and consistently so.

[manitou]

I think there are a lot of ways of looking at it. My favorite translation of the TTC uses 'The action of the Dao is Reversion'.

 

If we look at it from the Dao's point of view: Reversion to what? To the One? And then what? How can we possibly know what it means from this point of view? If there is actually no Origin or Original Creation, if things continue in non-origination, then there is no beginning at all. We know that because we think we know what 'eternity' means. No beginning, no end.

 

But what does happen when the conditions of the world as we know it 'revert' back to something? The Dao is like a bellows, some translations say. In, out, in, out. Perhaps it doesn't mean to revert to 'the beginning', but our linear minds cannot stretch their way around the time warp. I sometimes wonder if the bellows effect refers to a big bang phenomena; but perhaps prior to the big bang (or the current theory) there was something on the "other side" of that. Maybe this explains black holes and white dwarfs, where when one world has tried and perhaps not succeeded in reverting to the purity and innocence that the Dao seems to be aiming for (in linear time). the bellows continues in and out, in and out, through worlds and conditions.

 

In non-linear time, I sometimes wonder if there are other worlds here with us Here and Now. Perhaps even on this same planet. Maybe we walk through other beings every day not knowing it, because our senses are only limited to the few that we possess. I went to a zoo once and you could look through a device that showed you 'how a bat sees the world' - and it was all in neon green. That's their world, they could care less about ours, other than the eaves they're hanging upside down on.

 

Getting to the microcosm / macrocosm way of looking at it - as above, so below. As within us, so outside of ourselves. Our body is a model for the universe; the universe is a model for our body. The reversion within us, as others have said, is to return to the pure innocence of how we are born. In my estimation, this infers that when success is achieved, we have virtually no individual personalities, one from the other. We have reverted to the original human being, the one that hasn't been contorted by karma from the past and karma from the future (this is a mind bender, but if we remember that all is Here and Now it's easier to see). This has all played out already, only for some reason we have to experience it within the constraints of linear time - Newtonian time. Not quantum time, although my understanding is that quantum time which includes the warp of yesterday and tomorrow is the perspective in which things are more accurately viewed.

 

So, if we return to what we were as newborns, where there is no differentiation of the 10,000 things; where there is no judgment of right and wrong, where all the baby knows is love and its only function at that point in time is to eat and poop to sustain life; this is a metaphor for returning to the innocent origination of our particular personality. Our personality is made up of contortions, both seemingly good and seemingly bad. To remove the contortions is essentially to remove the personality, the things that make us seemingly different from each other.

 

And yet we're not different from each other. That spark of light and spirit that originated out of Desire of our parents is the very same spark within all of us; within the wombs of all of our mothers. And that spark of Intent created from Desire attracted to itself the cells. The thing that amazes me is that all the cells of our body, whether throat cells, hair cells, fingernail cells, eyeball cells - when we were being formed these cells are all the same; only it's the Alignment - how they lay down together to create form - that dictates whether that cell will be part of a fingernail or a belly button. Just the alignment!

 

We can't possibly know (unless perhaps through vision or meditation) the purpose of the Reversion; but it certainly must be a perfection process, a forging process of some sort. And when we are gone, the dynamic continues through other wombs. Perhaps this is the template for the macrocosm as well, only I think the jury is out as to whether our limited senses actually see, feel, touch, smell, or taste all that really is here. I suspect they do not. I think our senses are limited, just as a worm thinks that the world is one big green jungle with tall blades, or a bat thinks he lives in a neon world.

 

What a subject. Thanks, Hagar!

[Marblehead]

Live, Die, Repeat...

Alex

Hehehe. I really don't want to repeat (although it would be fun trying to get the women I missed the first time around). But I do want to live as long as I can. I love life. Dying sounds pretty freakin' boring.

[doc benway]

What does returning to the root, or origin mean for you guys?

 

h

 

I haven't yet read any of the thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating but I'm looking to stay unbiased...

 

For me right now, the root or origin is non-conceptual, beyond words or description so, of course, I'll use some words to describe it...

It transcends or precedes the me-ness.

It is unborn and undying - I know that sounds cliché but I don't know how else to express that feeling.

It is uncontrived, undivided, and unbounded.

 

And 'return' is a much better word than 'achieve' or 'attain'

Return can imply to uncover, reveal, reconnect...

 

How to return?

What does one do?

 

Not doing is perhaps more accurate.

Letting go, dissolving, resting, letting everything be exactly as it is... all are useful instructions,

but then one must face the one who is 'doing' all of that for that in itself is an obstacle to what already is.

 

It doesn't need the 'me' and the 'me' really can't do much to help us "get" there in an absolute sense.

How can we get to where we alway already are?

 

But investigating that me is useful for a time so that we are aware of its potential and it's grip.

In a relative sense, anything I do to lessen the impact of 'me' may be useful - energetic work, putting others before oneself, meditative practices, and so on... anything that lessens the reality of identity.

 

Lately, I've been watching the constant play of identity - jumping from one form to another... always waiting to blossom and contract, pulling the me into being. As the identity lessens its grip I feel closer to that source.

[manitou]

Aah, Steve. How I love your brain. Even your signature paragraph by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj seems to say it all:

 

When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.

When I look outside and see that I am everything, that is love.

And between these two, my life turns.

 

 

Would you be willing to expand just a bit on your last paragraph? I'm wondering at the method you're using - is it during meditation, or within your witness state during the day? (Which there is no doubt in my mind that you have!)

[doc benway]

Would you be willing to expand just a bit on your last paragraph? I'm wondering at the method you're using - is it during meditation, or within your witness state during the day? (Which there is no doubt in my mind that you have!)

Both... as much as possible.

 

In daily life, it is most obvious when we catch ourselves on a train of thought or in a rush of emotion, whether positive or negative.

Can I see how this emotion or this thought is a manifestation of some identity I have constructed that defines the me?

Is it the father, the son, the professional, the patriot, the hypocrite, the lover, the addict?

Can I see how that identity defines that state and vice versa?

And if that identity is not there, neither is the pain or the pleasure.

But when the I-dentity is not there, there is a much different, more stable type of pleasure.

 

In meditation, we can get to much subtler and fundamental levels of observation.

When "I" is less pronounced and resting it is almost as if space and awareness are stirred by something, I love how the Tibetans call this a subtle wind. And the wind stirs the surface and that space and awareness contract or coalesce and a thought or feeling blossoms and then solidifies and if I watch that it is similarly seen to be an aspect or facet of an identity of some sort, sometimes quite subtle. And if the "I" doesn't identify with that it just sits there, like a mirage, beaconing, and then loosens and weakens and dis-integrates and "I" is again resting...

 

Or something like that. It's always different and it's a work in progress.

Sometimes the wind is strong and the waves and swells are overwhelming.

Other times it is soft and gentle and the "I" is very restful and the more subtle levels can be uncovered.

[dawei]

Question: they say that each person has everything that he needs (for enlightenment) in sufficiency, then why do we need training?

 

This is singularly the most important question I've seen on TTB....

 

I have quoted too often Baopuzi said that "PRACTICE IS NOT NATURAL"....

 

SO... WTF ... PRACTICE ???

 

Our entire path/process... is to return... that is singularly our destiny. the path may vary but our destiny does not

[manitou]

 

This is singularly the most important question I've seen on TTB....

 

I have quoted too often Baopuzi said that "PRACTICE IS NOT NATURAL"....

 

SO... WTF ... PRACTICE ???

 

Our entire path/process... is to return... that is singularly our destiny. the path may vary but our destiny does not

 

But what will change if you rely on willy-nilly? Your patterns and reactions will continue. It takes much devotion and the will for enlightenment to be willing to unmask ourselves. This doesn't happen on its own because it's uncomfortable and it's much easier to not do it - although that means that we will still keep running up against the same walls and dynamics that we've been conditioned with since birth.

 

I'll bet the Dalai Lama put some work into it. It would surely be interesting to know. Wouldn't the eightfold path necessitate introspection?

 

Those who are capable of witnessing their own thoughts and behaviors have the opportunity to change their reactions, such as Steve's comments above about seeking out his own identities. Personally, I think this is crucial to enlightenment, but I may be biased because I was such a mess of an alcoholic 33 years ago and had to do some serious inner scraping to get well. Or...weller, at least...

 

I can remember when I was a teenager I was lost at sea in a metaphoric sense - I was whatever identity you wanted me to be. I would read fiction books and walk around as a particular fictional character for a while, in my mind. then, when I would read something else, I would change characters. I was a mess with no sense of self at all. I guess that's why I was interested in what Steve had to say about his I-dentity (I like that phrase!). It hit me so very close to home.

 

If one doesn't have the will for enlightenment, why worry about it? I think the choice is ours. And I'd guess most of the Bums have the will for enlightenment, or we wouldn't spend so much time trying to pin down the ineffable.

 

Dawei - my take on your WTF...PRACTICE? question is that there is a surprise waiting for us when we become capable of removing our conditionings and specific personality reactions. It's a wonderful surprise, and it's finding out Who we really are. In my understanding from my own experience and reading Masters of every religious and spiritual tradition that I can get my hands on - that the I Am dwells at the bottom of the personality. I just don't think it will ever pop up arbitrarily without our willingness and our inner work. I think yes, we have enlightenment in us from the moment of conception; but it does not remain in that form; it becomes hidden behind false teachings, feelings of inferiority or superiority, selfishness, and overly well developed egos. If we are serious about the ascension process, then this jewel must be intentionally mined by shattering the contortions that keep it hidden.

 

But I could be all wet. Maybe people are struck by enlightenment all the time without having to delve into the self. Do you think this has been your experience, by chance? But the fact that you refer to a path does indicate to me that you must be a self-cultivator. Otherwise, if we're destined to return without having to put effort into it, why follow a path at all?

[manitou]

But when the I-dentity is not there, there is a much different, more stable type of pleasure.

 

It seems to be a Joy that dwells within. Maybe the highs aren't so high, or the lows so low - but the stableness of the Joy is well worth seeking. It's a well-being, as I see it, borne from the knowledge that all is Mind and we manifest our own conditions. When we become more balanced, the fluctuations in our living conditions straighten out, like a vibration that eventually stills.

 

Your mention of one of your identities being a patriot sort of cracked me up. How very proud I am to be an American at this point in time, LOL. Actually, I'd love to see the day when there are no borders at all and we are all citizens of the world. Now, that would be Reversion, if you ask me.

[3bob]

returning to the root means dropping the mind and all memory, for such things can not enter there.

[Bearded Dragon]

I see practice in two different ways. One way is that you're trying to achieve something. Maybe you get hung up on it. Maybe you try too hard. The other way is that you just do the practice. It's natural. You like doing it and anything that happens is a bonus. You don't think about it too much.

 

The former is a backwards step in the enlightenment game. The latter is more or less going along with things, so it is a better function for return.

 

In any case I see return as inevitable. Origin and return come into existence at the same time. How could it not be inevitable?

[3bob]

in the sense that the first is also the last, so even the One returns.

Edited November 29, 2014 by 3bob

[hagar]

As a child we did things based on how we were inspired by our true nature. We just lived. Did things. There was no shame in what we did because, for us, it was natural for us to do that whatever. We didn't even understand the duality of right/ wrong, good/bad.

 

But then we got scolded when we did something that our parents, peers or others that "they" didn't want you to do. This is the beginning of the loss of our innocence, of our original nature.

 

The challenge then is to find a lifestyle that is compatible with our original nature, causes us no inner conflicts, but yet is more-or-less acceptable by society, in general.

 

This requires a lot of unlearning and a lot more learning. No easy task.

Indeed. However, this is a process beyond language. How do we unlearn what there is no language for?

 

h

 

Question: they say that each person has everything that he needs (for enlightenment) in sufficiency, then why do we need training?

Answer: if you don’t train your heart it will be like gold hidden in mineral ore, if the great melter puts it into a kiln, melts away the dirt, refines out the true thing, then it will become gold, if not it will remain ore. The practitioners also can stay in the state of ore if they keep dimness and pollution in their heart. But if they make their correct intent into the great melter, their saintly wisdom into the great carpenter, till not a hair of pollution left, this would be your initial unpolluted true heart. Once the true is complete it will not return into falsity anymore, protect it properly, guard it firmly, so it is self-sufficient and fit to use, which is a timeless, eternally bright, priceless gem.

 

(Wáng zhì-jǐn, 1177—1263, Yuan dynasty, first generation teacher of Quanzhen)

 

 

 

 

The return is the true practice process; the root is the end result of that practice. It is defined variously as 'rising to Heaven', 'obtaining the yang spirit-body', 'the body in the mundane world, the heart in Heavens' etc.

 

 

very true and consistently so.

So you say it is basically an energetic process?

[hagar]

I think there are a lot of ways of looking at it. My favorite translation of the TTC uses 'The action of the Dao is Reversion'.

 

If we look at it from the Dao's point of view: Reversion to what? To the One? And then what? How can we possibly know what it means from this point of view? If there is actually no Origin or Original Creation, if things continue in non-origination, then there is no beginning at all. We know that because we think we know what 'eternity' means. No beginning, no end.

 

But what does happen when the conditions of the world as we know it 'revert' back to something? The Dao is like a bellows, some translations say. In, out, in, out. Perhaps it doesn't mean to revert to 'the beginning', but our linear minds cannot stretch their way around the time warp. I sometimes wonder if the bellows effect refers to a big bang phenomena; but perhaps prior to the big bang (or the current theory) there was something on the "other side" of that. Maybe this explains black holes and white dwarfs, where when one world has tried and perhaps not succeeded in reverting to the purity and innocence that the Dao seems to be aiming for (in linear time). the bellows continues in and out, in and out, through worlds and conditions.

 

In non-linear time, I sometimes wonder if there are other worlds here with us Here and Now. Perhaps even on this same planet. Maybe we walk through other beings every day not knowing it, because our senses are only limited to the few that we possess. I went to a zoo once and you could look through a device that showed you 'how a bat sees the world' - and it was all in neon green. That's their world, they could care less about ours, other than the eaves they're hanging upside down on.

 

Getting to the microcosm / macrocosm way of looking at it - as above, so below. As within us, so outside of ourselves. Our body is a model for the universe; the universe is a model for our body. The reversion within us, as others have said, is to return to the pure innocence of how we are born. In my estimation, this infers that when success is achieved, we have virtually no individual personalities, one from the other. We have reverted to the original human being, the one that hasn't been contorted by karma from the past and karma from the future (this is a mind bender, but if we remember that all is Here and Now it's easier to see). This has all played out already, only for some reason we have to experience it within the constraints of linear time - Newtonian time. Not quantum time, although my understanding is that quantum time which includes the warp of yesterday and tomorrow is the perspective in which things are more accurately viewed.

 

So, if we return to what we were as newborns, where there is no differentiation of the 10,000 things; where there is no judgment of right and wrong, where all the baby knows is love and its only function at that point in time is to eat and poop to sustain life; this is a metaphor for returning to the innocent origination of our particular personality. Our personality is made up of contortions, both seemingly good and seemingly bad. To remove the contortions is essentially to remove the personality, the things that make us seemingly different from each other.

 

And yet we're not different from each other. That spark of light and spirit that originated out of Desire of our parents is the very same spark within all of us; within the wombs of all of our mothers. And that spark of Intent created from Desire attracted to itself the cells. The thing that amazes me is that all the cells of our body, whether throat cells, hair cells, fingernail cells, eyeball cells - when we were being formed these cells are all the same; only it's the Alignment - how they lay down together to create form - that dictates whether that cell will be part of a fingernail or a belly button. Just the alignment!

 

We can't possibly know (unless perhaps through vision or meditation) the purpose of the Reversion; but it certainly must be a perfection process, a forging process of some sort. And when we are gone, the dynamic continues through other wombs. Perhaps this is the template for the macrocosm as well, only I think the jury is out as to whether our limited senses actually see, feel, touch, smell, or taste all that really is here. I suspect they do not. I think our senses are limited, just as a worm thinks that the world is one big green jungle with tall blades, or a bat thinks he lives in a neon world.

 

What a subject. Thanks, Hagar!

Great post. Timeconstraints, but reading your thoughts about how the senses are limited, I recall Chuang Tzu´s notion of listening to the tuneless tune, and this is seen as the way "home". However, beyond the senses, what is really "there"? My girlfriend lost her vision on one eye, and that made her aware that losing the sense of sight is also losing a part of the world.

 

h

[hagar]

I haven't yet read any of the thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating but I'm looking to stay unbiased...

 

For me right now, the root or origin is non-conceptual, beyond words or description so, of course, I'll use some words to describe it...

It transcends or precedes the me-ness.

It is unborn and undying - I know that sounds cliché but I don't know how else to express that feeling.

It is uncontrived, undivided, and unbounded.

 

And 'return' is a much better word than 'achieve' or 'attain'

Return can imply to uncover, reveal, reconnect...

 

How to return?

What does one do?

 

Not doing is perhaps more accurate.

Letting go, dissolving, resting, letting everything be exactly as it is... all are useful instructions,

but then one must face the one who is 'doing' all of that for that in itself is an obstacle to what already is.

 

It doesn't need the 'me' and the 'me' really can't do much to help us "get" there in an absolute sense.

How can we get to where we alway already are?

 

But investigating that me is useful for a time so that we are aware of its potential and it's grip.

In a relative sense, anything I do to lessen the impact of 'me' may be useful - energetic work, putting others before oneself, meditative practices, and so on... anything that lessens the reality of identity.

 

Lately, I've been watching the constant play of identity - jumping from one form to another... always waiting to blossom and contract, pulling the me into being. As the identity lessens its grip I feel closer to that source.

indeed: sounds almost non-dual in your later years Steve =)

 

On the same note, I´ve been watching how my senses point beyond identity. The notion of "springtime with everything", or seeing where senseimpressions emerge from, like an endless freshness. Pointing to no past, only coming into being constantly.

Contemplating the return?

[hagar]

This is singularly the most important question I've seen on TTB....

 

I have quoted too often Baopuzi said that "PRACTICE IS NOT NATURAL"....

 

SO... WTF ... PRACTICE ???

 

Our entire path/process... is to return... that is singularly our destiny. the path may vary but our destiny does not

So destiny is not interfering, but does that inform the way we relate to practice, or how we form ideas about outcomes?

h