Origin and return

[manitou]

So you are now calling yourself gravity?

Funny. When I first got sober 33 years ago I had to come up with a higher power, for purposes of working the steps. The only concept that made sense to me was Gravity. Still does! Mutual attraction, or - looking at it another way - the attraction of objects with mass to each other. One could even look at it in a romantic sense and call it a type of love, an agape love, that is at the bottom of the Order.

[Marblehead]

Neat. Yes, gravity can easily be looked at from a human standpoint too. Those forces that pull people together instead of pushing us apart.

 

I watched more Neil Tyson last night and he said something I have been saying about gravity for a number of years - that perhaps we don't know as much about gravity as we think we do. (He was speaking about Dark Matter when he said that.)

[Brian]

 

 

 

I think this is absolutely profound, Steve. That's kind of the same thing I was wondering earlier (can't remember if it was this thread). Do you ever wonder if there are other worlds and beings inhabiting this very space, only their sensory organs are different? We could be walking right through them. I could be sitting on someone's lap right now and not know it.

 

And the sound things goes to 'what if a tree falls in the forest and there is no ear to hear it?' Did it make a sound? Even if we set up a tape recorder, it would function as the tympanic membrane and record it.

 

I wish I could remember what type of apparatus Schroedinger set up to determine whether his cat lived or died. But because he devised a way of measurement that did not include an 'observer', the device was unable to tell - the point being that it was impossible without sensory organs. Now, I know someone is going to say 'Duh!' here, but it really was a clever setup that circumvented the sensory, somehow, but one would have inferred that it should have been able to do it anyway; but it couldn't.

 

(And P.S. Brian - isn't it 'Love is kind of groovy with a spooky little girl like you?)

Yes, it is. That's what happens when posting while driving...

[Brian]

The ineffable is ineffable not just in its entirety but also in it components. We cannot answer seemingly straightforward questions like, "What is life?" or "What is time?" or "What is space?" or "What is matter?," so it really should be no surprise when we cannot answer more complex questions which assume answers to the unanswerable "simple" questions as unstated givens. Ineffability is an innate characteristic of the ineffable. (Just call me Captain Obvious...)

[3bob]

no-thing can not be nailed down by or as a thing. (but things or aspects can and do reach to the threshold of no-thing since they are connected through a super-duper, electro-magnetic transformer like dealy-bob)

[Marblehead]

Okay Captain, you sure did a lot of effing in that post.

[Brian]

Well, we believe we have real answers and that our deep thoughts are therefore profoundly meaningful, or we believe we have working answers and that our mental masturbation is therefore fun distraction. I think most are in the middle & floating between the two but it seems we either drift towards the former or the latter. I used to be of one mindset but am now increasingly more of the other.

[Michael Sternbach]

Neat. Yes, gravity can easily be looked at from a human standpoint too. Those forces that pull people together instead of pushing us apart.

 

I watched more Neil Tyson last night and he said something I have been saying about gravity for a number of years - that perhaps we don't know as much about gravity as we think we do. (He was speaking about Dark Matter when he said that.)

 

For one thing, gravity is present everywhere and can not be screened off for all we know - it's all-pervasive much like space itself (in fact, according to Einstein, it is curved space). Moreover, it can carry information according to some pioneering researchers. I think of gravity as somehow linked with the World Soul.

[Marblehead]

For one thing, gravity is present everywhere and can not be screened off for all we know - it's all-pervasive much like space itself (in fact, according to Einstein, it is curved space). Moreover, it can carry information according to some pioneering researchers. I think of gravity as somehow linked with the World Soul.

"World Soul?"

 

I'm going to let that one slide. Hehehe.

 

Recently watching science (cosmology) programs I have heard the suggestion that gravity was the first force established immediately after the Big Bang. So the would be a.) time/space, b.) hydrogen, then c.) gravity. All the other forces evolved (the best word I could think of) after that.

 

Yes, my brain is finally being able to grasp the concept of "curved space". But it is still the massiveness of objects in space that causes the curvature so we are right back to gravity again, in my understanding at the moment.

[Michael Sternbach]

Marblehead,

 

I don't mean to be fussy, but the four forces that science knows of:

• Gravity
• Electromagnetism
• Strong nuclear force
• Weak nuclear force

were merged with each other in the very beginning. They became separate by a process called symmetry breaking very early on. Physicists are trying to imitate that highly energetic (aka hot) initial state in their hadron colliders. All kinds of particles were created in the first (unimaginably short) moments, but the formation of Hydrogen and other simple atoms took thousands of years, as temperature had to go down a lot for allowing electrons binding to nuclei.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

I don't mean to be fussy, but the four forces that science knows of:

Yes, that was my understanding until recently listening to those folks who think they might know something.

 

Supposedly hydrogen and the force of gravity were the first to separate and then the other three forces. Gravity and hydrogen are what allowed helium and the other forces take form.

 

One gave birth to two,

Two gave birth to three,

Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things.

 

That actually works in my mind. Hehehe.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, that was my understanding until recently listening to those folks who think they might know something.

 

Supposedly hydrogen and the force of gravity were the first to separate and then the other three forces. Gravity and hydrogen are what allowed helium and the other forces take form.

 

Is that from Neil Tyson? Do you have any online reference?

[Marblehead]

Is that from Neil Tyson? Do you have any online reference?

It's not from that last set of lectures from Neil. I think more than anything it is from the Theoretical Physicists within various TV documentaries. I have no references right now but I will do a few searches to see if I can find support for what I have presented. I'll let you know whatever results I find.

[Marblehead]

This is an interesting article: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~yukimoon/BigBang/BigBang.htm

 

He doesn't talk much about gravity though.

 

But I will add at this point: The periodic table of elements indicates that hydrogen is the first element and helium is the second.

 

(Helium [and all other heavier elements] is created by the compression of hydrogen within a star (strong nuclear force) caused by gravity. "My thoughts.")

 

I'll look for more later.

[Marblehead]

Here are two more articles that get close to what I was saying but they never really say it:

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=383

 

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_timeline.html

 

 

(Actually, the second article gets very close to it.)

Edited December 7, 2014 by Marblehead

[Michael Sternbach]

This is an interesting article: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~yukimoon/BigBang/BigBang.htm

 

He doesn't talk much about gravity though.

 

But I will add at this point: The periodic table of elements indicates that hydrogen is the first element and helium is the second.

 

(Helium [and all other heavier elements] is created by the compression of hydrogen within a star (strong nuclear force) caused by gravity. "My thoughts.")

 

Some of the Helium was created before the first stars were created, according to the cosmologists. Another part is the result of nuclear fusion in stars as you mention. (You may have learnt this from one of your linked articles below meanwhile, which explains it in detail.)

 

Here are two more articles that get close to what I was saying but they never really say it:

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=383

 

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_timeline.html

 

 

(Actually, the second article gets very close to it.)

 

The second article gives a good summary of the assumed development after the Big Bang and talks about gravity as the first force that separated from the unison of the four forces.

[Marblehead]

Some of the Helium was created before the first stars were created, according to the cosmologists. Another part is the result of nuclear fusion in stars as you mention. (You may have learnt this from one of your linked articles below meanwhile, which explains it in detail.)

Yeah, i'm wondering how helium could have formed because my understanding is that hydrogen atoms must fuse in order for helium to be created.

 

The second article gives a good summary of the assumed development after the Big Bang and talks about gravity as the first force that separated from the unison of the four forces.

Yep. That is one of the things I was speaking to from the TV documentaries.

 

So anyway, what with your questions I am going to have to pay more attention to those documentaries and get the names of the people who are making the statements that I am buying.

 

But you must admit, the theory works well with the Taoist theory of how it all started.

[manitou]

Yes, it is. That's what happens when posting while driving...

HAHAHA!

 

I hope you were buckled up at least, while you were posting, eating a hot dog, smoking, and sipping a beer all at once.

[Brian]

...and shootin' dice...

[3bob]

"I hope you were buckled up at least, while you were posting, eating a hot dog, smoking, and sipping a beer all at once"...."and shootin' dice'" along with driving an old three speed on the column with your right arm around your girlfriend and your left arm and hand reaching through the steering wheel spokes for shifting while making a left or right turn at the same time - (btw, for most of the younger guys and a few of us older add using a smart phone to that whole scenario - which takes having all your marbles working together to pull it off)

[Marblehead]

Oh well, it was a good thread while it lasted. Thanks Hagar.

 

So we originate from the source and return to the destination. Now, if the source and the destination are the same then we really haven't gone anywhere, have we? But it has been one hellofa trip none-the-less so far.

 

And yes 3bob, I remember all that and the steering wheel spinner knob as well.

[3bob]

So the egg is in the chicken and the chicken is in the egg, but unless it becomes an eagle it can only fly so far.

[Marblehead]

So the egg is in the chicken and the chicken is in the egg, but unless it becomes an eagle it can only fly so far.

Yep. We each, each of the Ten Thousand Things, are limited by our Tzujan, our individual capacities and capabilities.

 

The bolded phrase is interesting. This is true for a female chicken during different phases of its life but not true for the male chicken. (Perhaps why the feminine [Yin] is more important in Taoism than nearly all other belief systems?)

[Michael Sternbach]

Yeah, i'm wondering how helium could have formed because my understanding is that hydrogen atoms must fuse in order for helium to be created.

 

Quoting from your first linked article:

 

Helium and Deuterium Abundance in Universe

The notion that the expanding universe was extremely hot in the beginning provides a reasonable explanation for why helium and deuterium seem to have existed even before star formation. Both these species are created by nuclear fusion. Fusion of a proton and a neutron produces deuterium (also known as heavy hydrogen), while fusion of two deuterium nuclei produces helium. These reactions can occur only at very high temperatures, such as in the interiors of stars. In 1946, George Gamow, once a student of Friedmann, suggested that nuclear fusion must have taken place when the universe was so hot in the beginning. This process, called the "big bang nucleosynthesis", would have created helium and deuterium (plus trace amounts of elements like lithium and beryllium) out of an initial sea of energetic protons and neutrons.

 

But you must admit, the theory works well with the Taoist theory of how it all started.

 

I very much agree with your basic assumption, even though we should talk about the details further. Not that Lao Tzu would have had knowledge of modern cosmology, of course. But texts like the TTC are about universal principles which are manifesting themselves on so many levels, in so many different ways.

 

How about this?

 

One gave birth to two,

 

Single particles fusing into deuterium nuclei. (Now we have two kinds of matter, hydrogen and deuterium)

 

Two gave birth to three,

 

Deuterium nuclei fusing into helium. (Now we have three kinds of matter.)

 

Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things.

 

Out of the three kinds of matter, the Universe was made.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

lots of ex hippies on this forum lol.

 

 

 

practically speaking, because I like practical things more than far out hard to grasp things,

 

fangui gen, or return to the root can simply mean that you bring the attention back to the root of the body/mind/spirit.

 

to really return to the root, I think that is something you can only know for yourself.

 

good luck!