Origin and return

[hagar]

For me the sense of an origin and source also has some degree of grief or loss related to it, like needing to adress some deep existential wound or pain before really opening to it in practice.

 

This part is highly overlooked, and also fascinating, because it makes me forced to face my contidioned self, my past, my deep personal identity, where the few innocent first misconceptions emerged in the middle of paradise.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIjobdArtiA

[Taoist Texts]

So you say it is basically an energetic process?

Yes, and the end result, 'the root' is a state of pure eternal energy. Paradoxically this process is decribed as both 'most simple and easy' and 'the hardest thing possible'.

 

Great post. Timeconstraints, but reading your thoughts about how the senses are limited, I recall Chuang Tzu´s notion of listening to the tuneless tune, and this is seen as the way "home". However, beyond the senses, what is really "there"? My girlfriend lost her vision on one eye, and that made her aware that losing the sense of sight is also losing a part of the world.

 

h

 

I am very sorry for her loss and hope not to appear insensitive but this seems pertinent to the subject of return as well as Chuang Tzu you quoted:

 

 

Socrates's idea that reality is unavailable to those who use their senses is what puts him at odds with the common man, and with common sense. Socrates says that he who sees with his eyes is blind, and this idea is most famously captured in his allegory of the cave, and more explicitly in his description of the divided line. The allegory of the cave (beginsRepublic 7.514a) is a paradoxical analogy wherein Socrates argues that the invisible world is the most intelligible ("noeton") and that the visible world ("(h)oraton") is the least knowable, and the most obscure.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

 

 

 

Democritus | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

... and that, in order to master his intellectual faculties, he blinded himself with burning glass

Edited November 28, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

This is singularly the most important question I've seen on TTB....

 

I have quoted too often Baopuzi said that "PRACTICE IS NOT NATURAL"....

 

SO... WTF ... PRACTICE ???

 

Our entire path/process... is to return... that is singularly our destiny. the path may vary but our destiny does not

That last sentence would look so much better to me if it read: "... but our destination does not."

 

Sure, the destiny of each and every one of us is to die. It's how we die that matters.

[Marblehead]

Indeed. However, this is a process beyond language. How do we unlearn what there is no language for?

Hehehe. Don't be asking me those mystical types of questions. I have no answers in that realm.

 

But I do know how to let my (inner) child out to play. That's enough for me.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

But what will change if you rely on willy-nilly? Your patterns and reactions will continue. It takes much devotion and the will for enlightenment to be willing to unmask ourselves. This doesn't happen on its own because it's uncomfortable and it's much easier to not do it - although that means that we will still keep running up against the same walls and dynamics that we've been conditioned with since birth.

[...]

If one doesn't have the will for enlightenment, why worry about it? I think the choice is ours. And I'd guess most of the Bums have the will for enlightenment, or we wouldn't spend so much time trying to pin down the ineffable.

[...]

I just don't think it will ever pop up arbitrarily without our willingness and our inner work. I think yes, we have enlightenment in us from the moment of conception; but it does not remain in that form; it becomes hidden behind false teachings, feelings of inferiority or superiority, selfishness, and overly well developed egos. If we are serious about the ascension process, then this jewel must be intentionally mined by shattering the contortions that keep it hidden.

 

But I could be all wet. Maybe people are struck by enlightenment all the time without having to delve into the self. Do you think this has been your experience, by chance? But the fact that you refer to a path does indicate to me that you must be a self-cultivator. Otherwise, if we're destined to return without having to put effort into it, why follow a path at all?

 

My initial reaction is to agree with your points but disagree with the conclusion, I think.

 

Many people never feel that they need enlightening. They just "do", and that's life. They don't see past the conditioning and false teaching even when it's pointed out to them. There are only the few who, like most on here, have that feeling, or find it at some point along the way, that there's something to discover about oneself and about existence generally.

 

Someone who doesn't have this feeling is never going to put in the work to discover what the feeling is about. Someone who has the feeling, and really starts unmasking is, in the first instance, probably more honest about and aware of the problems they face. And I think that on this 'journey' or path it depends on the individual as to how much effort needs to be put in. I think that probably some people can have an 'ooh!' moment where everything falls into place.

 

edit: In fact, I think the only true 'enlightenment', if there is such a thing, comes from, as Laozi said, unlearning. Being sick of one's sickness. Being placid. Getting to the point where one no longer worries about it all. That's probably an 'ooh!' moment.

 

 

I'll bet the Dalai Lama put some work into it. It would surely be interesting to know. Wouldn't the eightfold path necessitate introspection?

 

He's an interesting case. I'm certain he's always devoted much time and energy to being the wonderful specimen that he is. But also, guys like him and Jesus, and even the Queen of England to some extent, who have been taught from a young age that they're special, and brought up to believe that they will lead by example... well, I think that must have an effect on how one sees the world and interacts with people.

Edited November 28, 2014 by dustybeijing

[3bob]

Somewhat of an analogy related to: "Why practice?"

 

The pain of relative disconnection is or can build-up to greater degrees than the pain of practice which reduces such disconnection; also falling per gravity takes no effort but being crushed by it begs a response, thus to climb against it takes measured effort and in the end supreme effort, which once completed is effortless -

[manitou]

And yet, here we are. We are a group of people who question. Sure, most people do go about their lives just doing what is in front of them (an enlightened action to be sure), but do not seek the Source. Their own character development doesn't figure into the equation. They are reactors, that's all. They have no clue that they are manifesting their own conditions from day to day; attracting to them what they 'need' for soul development and return to the nondual. I submit that those of us who participate here are being attracted here because the Thing Within keeps us coming back; that there is Truth on this website; occasionally profound truth.

 

It is the unquestioning personalities (or strands of the Whole) who may spin around and around on the karma wheel. Those who question and seek and are not satisfied with just the worldly appearances are a special breed, we are. We have a chance of getting off the merry-go-round and not being controlled by our present, future, or ancestral karma. Whether it is this life, or the next, or the next - any attainment I speak of is merely Peace of Heart and conscious merging of our lives with the Oneness of life. And loving our brother as ourselves in a non-judgmental way. And caring for our environment.

 

I don't think that just because someone walks around reacting to everything in predictable ways (getting angry, being resentful, etc) is an enlightened one because they have no practice and don't question their own motives. I think these are folks who robotically react. And if we can all recall the lack of control we had over the chatter in our minds, prior to becoming adept at meditation and vacating the mind, even while walking around town - this is not enlightenment either. Developing the ability to still the chatter and allow Truth to bubble up - this certainly is a component of enlightened thinking and being.

 

Practice indeed is a choice. I do think every Bum here has an inner urge toward the Light, whether we're in awareness of it or not - just by the fact that we keep coming back. Even those who think they're just along for the ride, are consistently and predictably argumentative, or just spend their time joking around on the threads - there is an Urge within that is trying to bubble up through the blockages of personality.

 

Why practice? Why develop discipline? Because it's necessary to still the heart and dwell within the Dao. I don't know why that is important to me, but it has developed, after doing life wrong for so many years, to be the focal point in my life.

Edited November 28, 2014 by manitou

[doc benway]

returning to the root means dropping the mind and all memory, for such things can not enter there.

But are they other than the root?

[doc benway]

Great post. Timeconstraints, but reading your thoughts about how the senses are limited, I recall Chuang Tzu´s notion of listening to the tuneless tune, and this is seen as the way "home". However, beyond the senses, what is really "there"? My girlfriend lost her vision on one eye, and that made her aware that losing the sense of sight is also losing a part of the world.

 

h

Much of my attention lately is on space...

Finding the emptiness in that which is solid, hearing the silence in the noise, feeling spacious in one's body, heart, and mind... all seem to be of that same taste as listening to the tuneless tune.

[doc benway]

indeed: sounds almost non-dual in your later years Steve =)

 

On the same note, I´ve been watching how my senses point beyond identity. The notion of "springtime with everything", or seeing where senseimpressions emerge from, like an endless freshness. Pointing to no past, only coming into being constantly.

Contemplating the return?

 

Endless freshness, I love that - infinite potential, boundless space.

It must be emptiness because anything else would be too limiting and the potential must be infinite, otherwise the freshness would end...

 

Return to endless freshness

 

_/\_

[dust]

And caring for our environment.

 

Just to be predictably argumentative... does an 'enlightened' person necessarily care about the environment?

 

Part of me thinks that Laozi, for example, would say that the utter destruction of life on Earth, and a subsequent return to the root, is just that: a return to the root. Nothing to worry about.

 

萬物方乍居以頒復也 Life flourishes all around, living in coming and going;

天道熉熉 The Way of Heaven is balance,

各復丌堇 Everything returns to its root

[3bob]

But are they other than the root?

 

try the analogy of a prism with white light on one side and colors on the other side, if those colors return to the white light side they no longer remain colors because of the transformation of said a return. Now take "Mystery" with it being on one side and white light coming out the other - when that light returns it to transforms. Only Mystery never really left and always remains while all the rest are her connected and changing children who are coming and going.

[manitou]

 

Just to be predictably argumentative... does an 'enlightened' person necessarily care about the environment?

 

Part of me thinks that Laozi, for example, would say that the utter destruction of life on Earth, and a subsequent return to the root, is just that: a return to the root. Nothing to worry about.

 

LOL, oh Predictably Argumentative One - are we not part of the Mother? It's all stardust, as Marbles said earlier. But we go to the same place. Nothing to worry about. No beginning, no end. But the surety is within me, Something That Knows. that mankind follows the course of nature. Plants will go way out of their way to find the light. Perhaps returning to the origin means returning to the sun.

 

I think about the sun often, as I think about space often. When mindful, I see all of this as a cosmic soup, made of the same identical material (regardless of the different combinations of molecules that produces the 10,000 things). But the atomic material is the same all over. The electron, protons, and neutrons are all bound to the atomic nucleus and are limited in their range due to the mutual attraction. However, these puppies circulate around the nucleus at the speed of light! My current thinking is that we are nothing more than light manifesting itself into conditions due to will and intent; that which underlies the One of the Dao. Wouldn't it make sense that our destiny is to return to the light? And in a metaphoric sense, this is extended to the person within; to duplicate the process of 'returning to the light' by our own intentional cleansing process.

 

I knew an enlightened one named Herb some years ago. He too had recovered from an alcoholic life, and had to scour himself to do so. He spent the rest of his years studying comparative philosophy of every sort, looking for the commonality within them all. This is my focus as well.

 

I ran into him at the Krotona library (of Krishnamurti fame) in Ojai, California one day. He had the most amazed look on his face as I walked up to him. He had just read something in a tome he was studying. He said....."Did you know there are souls in the sun??!!"

 

Well, this was way over my head at the time. But for some reason this statement has been lurking in the back of my mind for over 30 years, mainly because it was so enigmatic, and yet something tells me there is something to it. Why would our dwelling place between incarnations not be the sun? We would have no sense of hot or cold in an unembodied state, and therefore it wouldn't be uncomfortably hot, lol. We wouldn't even need fans.

 

This was further pointed out to me (and please forgive me for getting a little personal and giving out TMI....) but there was a period of several weeks a few years back when, every time Joe and I had a sexual encounter, it was tantric! It was not something he tried to do, like intentional semen retention - but the fact remains that for about a month he was unable to ejaculate. But what this did result in was the INCREDIBLE experience of a mutual trip to a very, very loud place. It sounded like a burning furnace. But even more glorious was the incredible brilliantly golden fire-like womb of a place we ended up. I just remember that it was so incredibly loud and dazzling in its brightness. Had we been looking with our physical vision, the eyes couldn't have stood the brightness. But the fact that it was a Mutual experience, that we even talked about it at the time we were there, as in "Omigod...are you seeing what I'm seeing??" - is sort of a verification that I'm not totally crazy.

 

This place comes back to me often. I do wonder about souls in the sun. Maybe the sun is the One, and the intent behind the sun and its ramifications is the Dao.

Edited November 28, 2014 by manitou

[doc benway]

try the analogy of a prism with white light on one side and colors on the other side, if those colors return to the white light side they no longer remain colors because of the transformation of said a return. Now take "Mystery" with it being on one side and white light coming out the other - when that light returns it to transforms. Only Mystery never really left and always remains while all the rest are her connected and changing children who are coming and going.

 

Nice analogy - light is light.

Colors occur in the eye that is stimulated and the brain that interprets...

[Marblehead]

It must be emptiness because anything else would be too limiting and the potential must be infinite, otherwise the freshness would end...

Yes, anything already manifest has its limitations. But your "emptiness" I rather refer to as "Wu", Mystery, full potential.

[3bob]

Nice analogy - light is light.

Colors occur in the eye that is stimulated and the brain that interprets...

different wavelengths of light or energy are at different speeds, the fastest is at the last threshold of possible measurement while after return there is no measure.

[dawei]

But what will change if you rely on willy-nilly? Your patterns and reactions will continue. It takes much devotion and the will for enlightenment to be willing to unmask ourselves. This doesn't happen on its own because it's uncomfortable and it's much easier to not do it - although that means that we will still keep running up against the same walls and dynamics that we've been conditioned with since birth

 

Yes, your patterns and reactions will continue... but what made you aware of so-called patterns and reactions?

 

This doesn't happen on its own ... very good point... but why not? If one becomes aware, what happens?

 

I'll bet the Dalai Lama put some work into it. It would surely be interesting to know. Wouldn't the eightfold path necessitate introspection?

 

There seems to be a separation which occurs... Even the DL found that separation exists in his upbringing... if he is not exempt from it, then how can we be!?

 

Those who are capable of witnessing their own thoughts and behaviors have the opportunity to change their reactions, such as Steve's comments above about seeking out his own identities. Personally, I think this is crucial to enlightenment, but I may be biased because I was such a mess of an alcoholic 33 years ago and had to do some serious inner scraping to get well. Or...weller, at least...

 

Paths vary. We can easily judge many of them... If your still alive then suspend evaluation to the end...

 

I can remember when I was a teenager I was lost at sea in a metaphoric sense - I was whatever identity you wanted me to be. I would read fiction books and walk around as a particular fictional character for a while, in my mind. then, when I would read something else, I would change characters. I was a mess with no sense of self at all. I guess that's why I was interested in what Steve had to say about his I-dentity (I like that phrase!). It hit me so very close to home.

 

I feel this is your current judgement/evaluation... but I think you were really centered at that time... You may of struggled with the idea of "self" but you seemed to follow the flow of life.

 

If one doesn't have the will for enlightenment, why worry about it? I think the choice is ours. And I'd guess most of the Bums have the will for enlightenment, or we wouldn't spend so much time trying to pin down the ineffable.

 

The concept should not be a dog to chase...

 

Dawei - my take on your WTF...PRACTICE? question is that there is a surprise waiting for us when we become capable of removing our conditionings and specific personality reactions. It's a wonderful surprise, and it's finding out Who we really are. In my understanding from my own experience and reading Masters of every religious and spiritual tradition that I can get my hands on - that the I Am dwells at the bottom of the personality. I just don't think it will ever pop up arbitrarily without our willingness and our inner work. I think yes, we have enlightenment in us from the moment of conception; but it does not remain in that form; it becomes hidden behind false teachings, feelings of inferiority or superiority, selfishness, and overly well developed egos. If we are serious about the ascension process, then this jewel must be intentionally mined by shattering the contortions that keep it hidden.

 

Your right in the surprise is meant for someone to question their life... which you did...

 

Take this in an easy way... but your simply trying/seeking too hard to find your 'self'... each look seems to not be enough...

 

Your seeking and looking too hard... due to past issues... but it is right there within you.

 

But I understand your point: "WHAT CAN I DO" ; emphasize on "I"

 

Your seeking an understanding of your part of existence...

 

But I could be all wet. Maybe people are struck by enlightenment all the time without having to delve into the self. Do you think this has been your experience, by chance? But the fact that you refer to a path does indicate to me that you must be a self-cultivator.

 

I'll confess a bit here... you mention being a "self-cultivator". I never heard this word for a long time but later realized that many used such terms. Now I think I understand the meaning... and I would admit I am a self-cultivator. WHY?

 

I only seek to find my destiny. To me, that is to be a self-cultivator... but others may apply the word differently.

 

By Chance? NO.... this is destiny talking to us... it only depends on whether we are listening.

 

 

Otherwise, if we're destined to return without having to put effort into it, why follow a path at all?

 

[manitou]

 

Yes, your patterns and reactions will continue... but what made you aware of so-called patterns and reactions?

 

 

 

 

This doesn't happen on its own ... very good point... but why not? If one becomes aware, what happens?

 

 

There seems to be a separation which occurs... Even the DL found that separation exists in his upbringing... if he is not exempt from it, then how can we be!?

 

 

Paths vary. We can easily judge many of them... If your still alive then suspend evaluation to the end...

 

 

I feel this is your current judgement/evaluation... but I think you were really centered at that time... You may of struggled with the idea of "self" but you seemed to follow the flow of life.

 

 

The concept should not be a dog to chase...

 

 

Your right in the surprise is meant for someone to question their life... which you did...

 

Take this in an easy way... but your simply trying/seeking too hard to find your 'self'... each look seems to not be enough...

 

Your seeking and looking too hard... due to past issues... but it is right there within you.

 

But I understand your point: "WHAT CAN I DO" ; emphasize on "I"

 

Your seeking an understanding of your part of existence...

 

 

I'll confess a bit here... you mention being a "self-cultivator". I never heard this word for a long time but later realized that many used such terms. Now I think I understand the meaning... and I would admit I am a self-cultivator. WHY?

 

I only seek to find my destiny. To me, that is to be a self-cultivator... but others may apply the word differently.

 

By Chance? NO.... this is destiny talking to us... it only depends on whether we are listening.

 

 

 

Dawei - I so appreciate your post. And you're the second person in one day - CT being the other one - who told me to be more gentle on myself. It's coming, but it's taking a lifetime....my life has been a rather incredible one, truth be known.

 

 

No, enlightenment is not a dog to chase. Pursuing philosophical knowledge, all philosophical knowledge is a love of my heart, I am impelled to study. The words never get old. The ineffable is an enigma, and I am a detective to my core. In that, I am following my destiny. Tying together little clues, seeing the commonality of the metaphysics of all fields of philosophical thought - this is the Big Case for me. It's just who I am. No doggy.

 

Thank you again for your kindness.

[3bob]

And yet, here we are. We are a group of people who question. Sure, most people do go about their lives just doing what is in front of them (an enlightened action to be sure), but do not seek the Source. Their own character development doesn't figure into the equation. They are reactors, that's all. They have no clue that they are manifesting their own conditions from day to day; attracting to them what they 'need' for soul development and return to the nondual. I submit that those of us who participate here are being attracted here because the Thing Within keeps us coming back; that there is Truth on this website; occasionally profound truth.

 

It is the unquestioning personalities (or strands of the Whole) who may spin around and around on the karma wheel. Those who question and seek and are not satisfied with just the worldly appearances are a special breed, we are. We have a chance of getting off the merry-go-round and not being controlled by our present, future, or ancestral karma. Whether it is this life, or the next, or the next - any attainment I speak of is merely Peace of Heart and conscious merging of our lives with the Oneness of life. And loving our brother as ourselves in a non-judgmental way. And caring for our environment.

 

I don't think that just because someone walks around reacting to everything in predictable ways (getting angry, being resentful, etc) is an enlightened one because they have no practice and don't question their own motives. I think these are folks who robotically react. And if we can all recall the lack of control we had over the chatter in our minds, prior to becoming adept at meditation and vacating the mind, even while walking around town - this is not enlightenment either. Developing the ability to still the chatter and allow Truth to bubble up - this certainly is a component of enlightened thinking and being.

 

Practice indeed is a choice. I do think every Bum here has an inner urge toward the Light, whether we're in awareness of it or not - just by the fact that we keep coming back. Even those who think they're just along for the ride, are consistently and predictably argumentative, or just spend their time joking around on the threads - there is an Urge within that is trying to bubble up through the blockages of personality.

 

Why practice? Why develop discipline? Because it's necessary to still the heart and dwell within the Dao. I don't know why that is important to me, but it has developed, after doing life wrong for so many years, to be the focal point in my life.

 

(I'm getting away from Taoist context but...)

 

Hi Manitou,

I think you well know that how or when we use the term "they" such often becomes a slippery slope; or can easily become another form of reaction as you've brought up above in other ways. Thus if one will - one might ask or ponder on an analogy of how the "Eye of God" sees us and all these other beings? (for instance does such vision separate out them from us?) Further, once an extremely small mote has pierced that extremely great "Eye of God" how does it then perceive?

Edited November 29, 2014 by 3bob

[manitou]

Your point is well taken. Yes, we are all the Eye of God expressing itself in different ways. My error on the slippery slope.

[Marblehead]

Your point is well taken. Yes, we are all the Eye of God expressing itself in different ways. My error on the slippery slope.

Funny. I have no idea where you found (Eye Of God) in Taoism. Taoism is an Atheistic philosophy so there are no gods.

 

And even the word "Eye" personifies Tao and this cannot be done within Taoist philosophy. The very first line of the TTC states this very clearly: As for the Tao, the Tao that can be spoken of is not the constant Tao.

[dust]

But doesn't that mean that we can give any name we like to it? It'll still be what it is.. or still be what it isn't..or won't still be what it wasn't...or...

[Marblehead]

But doesn't that mean that we can give any name we like to it? It'll still be what it is.. or still be what it isn't..or won't still be what it wasn't...or...

But if you call it a name (give it a label) the first thing you have done is personify it. Tao cannot be personified. And also, if someone is listening to you and takes your words for granted they will then have a misunderstanding of the truth. They will believe in something that does not exist.

 

Yes, Lao Tzu said that if he had to give it (Tao) a name he would call it "Great". "Great" does not personify Tao. The word "God" is the personification of something that cannot be personified. It's (Tao) not even "a thing".

 

When we do not speak the truth we are, in fact, telling a lie. (Dualities abound!)

[manitou]

Seems like it's always a challenge to talk about the Dao - so many different ways of looking at that thing that impels us upward, to unearth our own truths. When I said the Eye of God above, it was to merge with what 3bob was saying. It seems, to me, that there is an Intent that is universal, and that it seems to be going somewhere. Whether we call it Dao, God, the Light, the Ineffable - so many different names for it. I'm with you, Marbles - calling it the Eye of God does seem to indicate a separation, a duality. But on the other hand I think it's a type of shorthand that we have to use for purposes of conversation here, and I think most everybody understands that non-duality reigns. Perhaps we could call it the Force? Or the Purpose?

 

On our currency in the U.S. there is the pyramid contained thereon with the eye at the top of the pyramid. Folks traditionally call this the 'All-Seeing Eye', which is certainly an exercise in duality. Personally, I think that this eye on the top of the pyramid instead is a metaphor for the 'I Am' (Eye Am!), because if the picture on our currency is consistent with what the founders of this country intended, it was not based on Christianity at all, as many think. It was based on the principles of Freemasonry - and the 33rd degree of the Scottish Rites is the I Am consciousness. In fact, if one reads Morals and Dogma by (Albert?) Pike (sort of a Freemason bible, in a sense) one can follow in tremendous detail what each of the degrees, up to the 32nd, means. And what the individual must achieve in his character in order to advance to the next degree. But the funny thing is that when you get to the 33rd degree, there is no explanation at all. It is blank. It is the Ineffable, lol. No words.

Edited November 30, 2014 by manitou

[Marblehead]

I wasn't speaking to you directly Manitou, I just felt I needed to state the above.

 

This thread is, afterall, in the "Taoist Discussions" sub-forum.

 

And I have used the term "Life Force" before in Taoist discussions. (Primarily speaking to the concept of Chi.)

 

Yes, searching for our own truths is good. And I do understand, more or less, where you are along your path.

 

When I say the Pledge I always leave those two words out. I have never put any significance on the "Eye". And even more, I don't want anyone keeping an "Eye" on me.

 

And America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation with freedom of and from religion regardless of what Bush said. (But then, he did say a lot of stupid things.)