Why does consciousness exist?

[Yasjua]

Why did the cosmos become aware of itself and why do we experience anything at all? What is the point of consciousness? Is it possible to deny the existence of consciousness? Is consciousness itself (the idea - since that's all we can talk about) something like a phantom limb of the mind? Is it a mental concept that gives the mind a sense of autonomy, entityhood, and independence?

 

I look forward to hearing your answers and questions. Please don't regurgitate content - words and concepts - that you've strung together into "knowledge" in your memory. The answer must exist NOW if it is to exist at all, not in what Babajimbe said in your imagination of 2,000 years ago.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Yasjua

[idiot_stimpy]

How could anyone know?

[Yasjua]

In my opinion consciousness is neither personal nor universal, as both of these are also merely concepts, so I threw that debate into the trash. I also do not believe that consciousness is permanent or eternal, because this is a sort of mental idolatry and masturbation. Eternal or Universal consciousness is a lofty concept and a one-way ticket down the cul-de-sac of mysticism.

 

The personal version doesn't work either, because - let's face it, there's no way in hell a "person" has consciousness. That would imply ownership of existence, and that's one of the most utterly insane concepts out there. It would mean the work the cosmos has done to create such a thing as itself can be commandeered by some petty, flawed, changing psychological apparition. That body-mind mechanisms behave as persons is the most accurate assessment I can make.

 

And yet, that fact leaves me surprisingly cold. When I was seeking enlightenment, recognizing the absence of a personal entity struck me as utterly profound. It now strikes me as utterly important, but by no means signifying the end of human development or understanding. It is important that people recognize this fact, because it will lead to further evolution of the human race, it will free the mind, free society, free of the burdens and stupidities of civilization. But by no means is that the ideal to shoot for. That's the equivalent of seeking enlightenment. It should be visualized and contemplated as a possibility, not as a hope or a goal. My thoughts have changed so much since my id quieted down. The goal-orientation and seeking have utterly given way to rationality. It might be a loop, it could be a sort of binary - some people seek "freedom," or the ideal of enlightenment, some might seek "understanding," and choose not to content themselves fully on enlightenment, but to use it as a spring board to revolution and advancement and well-being on a grand scale.

 

So if consciousness doesn't exist, what does it imply for humanity's development? I am asking about this in very realistic and practical terms. What is humanity as a whole up to right now (fighting wars, curing diseases, striving toward technological and cultural advancement and constantly fucking up due to qualities like ignorance, apathy, and ego), and what happens to science, society, spirituality and civilization as a whole if consciousness is indisputably recognized to be a thought-form, as I suspect it might be? I find that to be a fascinating visualization exercise, something I can barely wrap my head around.

 

Here's what I think. We want to think that consciousness is an indisputable fact. I currently speculate that it's a sort of image (concept) or apparition that holds all other appearances and apparitions in place. It is like, "yes I can see that my thought of the apple is not the apple, it's an image in my inner cavern based on body-brain memory," and I can also see that the taste is not the apple, but a characteristic, a quality that explodes out of the apple when it is known by the tongue," or I can see the apple, which is a sensory perception that is derived from the eyes, and is known by "me," the cavern and its knower ("I know).

 

But the inner cavern, consciousness, is also an image - it's the room in which all the images hang, but since it's regarded as being "me," implicating that I am in and part of the show of existence (Nisargadatta constantly denied this, remember?), I don't question it or consider the possibility that it's something like a Master-image (hence the metaphor and archetypal search for the master or for mastery). Are you following? Why do we seek Mastery? We are looking for the Master-image, which happens to be the ideation of consciousness. I'm kind of just streaming with this idea, haven't really thought like this before.

 

What I'm feeling is that the cosmos may not abide by anything we consider 'reasonable' and yet is utterly transcendent in its behavior and being of anything conceived of as 'unreasonable' either. In other words, the mind can't understand the whole, but it can shed through or beyond certain illusions that have for some reason appeared. This is just cleaning the mirror, making a more realistic (and hence magical and charming) approach possible. This really strips away the idea of enlightenment as some kind of perfection or finality. It's an awakening and has nothing to do with turning into a man-god or divine or superior being. You're still somehow connected and related to the whole of humanity through this thinking, but your orientation goes from seeking due to personal desire and pain, and into contemplating for the very real sake of wanting to truly help. I guess that's where I'm at anyway.

 

I've been getting way more into science lately and I think it's helped me view and assess existence and its qualities more objectively, and less on the basis of hope. My perception tells me that consciousness is first and foremost an idea, and secondly, that what it tries to refer to is the reality of an experience. The idea doesn't necessarily point to anything - it merely describes something. It doesn't name it, it tries to explain it. This indicates that we still regard all phenomena as mysteries - we continue to treat the fact of existence as a mystery on a very deep level. We don't want to feign ignorance, because we are learning, but we can't pretend to have knowledge either, because no human being has ever understood the whole picture. So there's no object or reality called consciousness that we can talk about. We can't talk about if the brain produces it or anything else. Even the brain is a description, not an actual thing. We don't actually know a single thing about anything. This is utterly fascinating to me.

 

Human communication, which was necessary apparently for the evolution of mind and the benefits of complex communication blunders here in that we turn descriptions into things automatically, without questioning the reality that ideation IS knowing. Getting stuck on that point though is pretty pointless. The mind likes to visit certain thoughts over and over.

 

Ouspensky says people have the potential to have (develop) their own consciousness, but most don't. I also like this assessment, as it makes sense to me now after many years of not making sense. I respect Gurdjieff immensely for reasons I don't understand or know how to think about, but I have to remain skeptical even at his word. Otherwise, I'm likely to blind myself.

 

Consciousness is truly a mystery. Truly nobody really knows what it is or what it does. The evolutionary perspective does not necessarily explain why consciousness would develop in the first place. Why does God become embodied in these organs?

 

tldr; wtf

Edited December 2, 2014 by Yasjua

[Yasjua]

Here's an excellent thread I found on TED. People contemplating the same thing: http://www.ted.com/conversations/4082/where_do_you_think_consciousne.html

[TzuJanLi]

This is my understanding of the relationship of Consciousness with existence:

 

There is the principle of self-organization, order emerging from chaos, recurrent patterns.. Source..

There is the capacity for recognizing those patterns and the differences between them, for memory and recall.. Consciousness

There is the ability to organize information for a purpose.. Intelligence

There is the ability to perceive, to feel, events, objects, thoughts, emotions, or sensory patterns, the vehicle through which experience and information and experience is made known to the experiencer/consciousness... Awareness..

[Marblehead]

This is my understanding of the relationship of Consciousness with existence:

That's just Tzujan, isn't it? A natural process.

[Marblehead]

Why did the cosmos become aware of itself and why do we experience anything at all?

You have made assumptions that I do not accept and therefore would find it hard to speak to you question and statements.

[doc benway]

I think that wondering "why" is a peculiar characteristic of the movement of human thought being that it is rooted in speech and conceptualization.

If thought can answer such questions, even with labels and concepts, it is able to rest in some illusion of security, at least until the next "why" pops up...

Clearly this pattern has evolutionary and teleological advantage.

I wonder if other sentient beings ask why?

I've gotten less attached to focusing on such questions because I suspect that there are things that transcend our ability and tendency to conceptualize, one of which is the very nature of our being and awareness.

Rather than look for a conceptual explanation, I rest in a direct connection and in that I find all the answers I need.

[idiot_stimpy]

My answer to the question is, I don't know.

[Michael Sternbach]

In my view, in most fundamental terms, ONLY consciousness exists. Every atom has and is a manifestation of consciousness.

[doc benway]

In my view, in most fundamental terms, ONLY consciousness exists. Every atom has and is a manifestation of consciousness.

 

Another way of putting this is, how do things exist in the absence of consciousness?

Or, in order to avoid the debate about existence vs non-existence, what are things like in the absence of consciousness?

[Jetsun]

Perhaps as an experiment or for fun.

 

Some religious types might say it is so the cosmos or God can recognise and admire its own creation.

[forestofclarity]

Let me ask this: if outside of consciousness, there was either a Big Divine Mind, a material universe, or absolutely nothing, would it make a difference to what happens within consciousness?

[Marblehead]

Let me ask this: if outside of consciousness, there was either a Big Divine Mind, a material universe, or absolutely nothing, would it make a difference to what happens within consciousness?

Probably not but it sure would screw up my belief system.