1 道原 Daoyuan The origin of the Way

[Taoist Texts]

《道原》

 

老子曰：夫事生者應變而動，變生於時，無常之行。故「道可道，非常道也，名可名，非常名也。」書者言之所生也，言出於智，智者不知，非常道也；名可名，非藏書者也。「多聞數窮，不如守中」，「絕學無憂」，「絕聖棄智，民利百倍」。人生而靜，天之性也；感物而動，性之害也；物至而應，智之動也；智與物接，而好憎生焉；好憎成形，而智怵於外，不能反己，而天理滅矣。

是故聖人不以人易天，外與物化而內不夫情，故通於道者，反於清靜，空於物者，終於無為。以恬養智，以漠合神，即乎無垠，循天者與道遊也，隨人者與俗交也；故聖人不以事滑天，不以欲亂情，不謀而當，不言而信，不慮而得，不為而成。是以處上而民不重，居前而人不害，天下歸之，姦邪畏之，以其無爭於萬物也，故莫敢與之爭。

 

The origin of Dao

 

Lao-zi said: those who serve the living react to changes and act, since life changes with seasons – the conduct is not constant. Therefore [The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.]

The scribe’s are those who produce words, once the words become accepted wisdom, the wise ones stop knowing, which is not the constant Dao. The name that can be named is not in the archives. [much hearing – much poorness, better to guard center], [stop learning – no sadness], [stop sage-hood, reject wisdom - people benefit hundredfold].

People born are quiet with Heavenly nature, they react to things and move, the nature is harmed; things come, they react, the wisdom becomes unstable; the wisdom joins with things - love and hatred appear; love and hatred encrust, the wisdom is enticed outside, can not go back and the Heavenly principle is extinguished.

That is why the sages do not join people betraying Heaven; outside they change with things with no mature passions inside; that is why they reach Dao, return to calmness, empty of things and never acting. They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane.

That is why the sages in services do not cheat Heaven, and do not disturb passions with desires, (due to that) they do not scheme but get, do no speak but are trusted, do not think but obtain, do not act but complete. That is why they get on top but populace is not oppressed, they get in front but people are not harmed, the Under Heaven gathers round them, the vice is scared away, they do not straggle with all things so none dares to straggle with them.

[dust]

Cool.

[nestentrie]

A name, once adopted to symbolise, represent, or stand in for something else becomes something that can be viewed or used as something else entirely. WIth our economy of the symbols of tao we are never quite dealing with tao itself and are therefore separated.

 

Even action (when viewed as an event) becomes separate. Much hearing of the many events leads to a poverty that is disconnected from the one event. Much learning brings the many errors of hearing and misdeeds caused by separation to the fore to where we grieve for them. So the author says 'reject sagehood; reject the prescriptions for the many events, and the people will naturalise'.

 

Aspiration can never replace inspiration. Inspired stillness can't be defeated.

[dawei]

This is really interesting to read and so many overlaps to LZ chapters and themes.

 

Based on some discussion elsewhere on Ch. 18 and 19, Wisdom and Sageliness:

 

Wenzi above on LZ 19: [stop sage-hood, reject wisdom - people benefit hundredfold].

 

Wenzi explained above:

They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane.

 

Paul Van Els translates a section of 3 九守 Jiushou The nine observances:

 

Wenzi asked about sageliness and wisdom.

Laozi answered: “To hear something and recognize it is sageliness. To see something and recognize it is wisdom. The sagely man constantly hears of where fortune and misfortune appear and adjusts his way accordingly. The wise man constantly sees fortune and misfortune taking shape and adjusts his conduct accordingly.

The sagely man recognizes the good and ill portents of the Dao of Heaven and therefore knows where fortune and misfortune appear. The wise man foresees their taking shape and therefore knows the gate to fortune or misfortune.

To hear what has not yet appeared is sageliness. To foresee something taking shape is wisdom.

Those who lack both hearing and sight are stupid and confused.”

[Hancock]

On 12/3/2014 at 8:30 PM, dawei said:

This is really interesting to read and so many overlaps to LZ chapters and themes.

 

Based on some discussion elsewhere on Ch. 18 and 19, Wisdom and Sageliness:

 

Wenzi above on LZ 19: [stop sage-hood, reject wisdom - people benefit hundredfold].

 

Wenzi explained above:

They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane.

 

Paul Van Els translates a section of 3 九守 Jiushou The nine observances:

 

Wenzi asked about sageliness and wisdom.

 

Laozi answered: “To hear something and recognize it is sageliness. To see something and recognize it is wisdom. The sagely man constantly hears of where fortune and misfortune appear and adjusts his way accordingly. The wise man constantly sees fortune and misfortune taking shape and adjusts his conduct accordingly.

 

The sagely man recognizes the good and ill portents of the Dao of Heaven and therefore knows where fortune and misfortune appear. The wise man foresees their taking shape and therefore knows the gate to fortune or misfortune.

 

To hear what has not yet appeared is sageliness. To foresee something taking shape is wisdom.

 

Those who lack both hearing and sight are stupid and confused.”

Just think this is amazing. It's very useful, especially in my current predicament. 

[rene]

48 minutes ago, Zenmode said:

Just think this is amazing. It's very useful, especially in my current predicament. 

 

Zenmode, hello! I agree it's pretty amazing. Could you elaborate on how you are finding it useful?  Thanks (-:

[Hancock]

2 minutes ago, WuDao said:

 

Zenmode, hello! I agree it's pretty amazing. Could you elaborate on how you are finding it useful?  Thanks (-:

Unfortunately I think it's best to keep the details of my personal experiences offline for now. Suffice it to say the general approach of the sage and the wise person do seem to differ, one comes from a place beyond intellect, the spiritual essence if you will,  and the other from intellectual views. 

Or it could be taken as views from different perceptions the successes from beyond his mind, while the wise man only sees what he sees. It's like a map showing how to transcend personal subjectivity.

 

It also could be possibly descriptive of psychic perception versus logical perceptions. There's a lot in there I dug out personally for myself. Just my own abstract notions.

[rene]

8 minutes ago, Zenmode said:

Unfortunately I think it's best to keep the details of my personal experiences offline for now. Suffice it to say the general approach of the sage and the wise person do seem to differ, one comes from a place beyond intellect, the spiritual essence if you will,  and the other from intellectual views. 

Or it could be taken as views from different perceptions the successes from beyond his mind, while the wise man only sees what he sees. It's like a map showing how to transcend personal subjectivity.

 

It also could be possibly descriptive of psychic perception versus logical perceptions. There's a lot in there I dug out personally for myself. Just my own abstract notions.

 

Glad you found some use for it! And thanks for the unintended reminder about all the great threads we have in the archives. It's a hoot to see something I've written years & years ago... and seeing if I still agree with myself.  

Thanks again!

[Hancock]

1 hour ago, WuDao said:

 

Glad you found some use for it! And thanks for the unintended reminder about all the great threads we have in the archives. It's a hoot to see something I've written years & years ago... and seeing if I still agree with myself.  

Thanks again!

 No problem, I enjoy finding these gems hidden in here. It's one of the reasons I like this forum. I've read similar stuff, but with each leveling like I read a new depth I couldn't see before.

[kondensation]

Getting the same message from this as from the LZ. Looking forward to exploring further.

[rideforever]

On 03/12/2014 at 5:00 AM, Taoist Texts said:

That is why the sages in services do not cheat Heaven, and do not disturb passions with desires, (due to that) they do not scheme but get, do no speak but are trusted, do not think but obtain, do not act but complete. That is why they get on top but populace is not oppressed, they get in front but people are not harmed, the Under Heaven gathers round them, the vice is scared away, they do not straggle with all things so none dares to straggle with them.

 

Is this a statement of fact, or a hope that one day it will happen ?
Or is this an instruction to sages, a reminder of what they should be ?

Is this an appeal to suicide because when you don't live then ... there are no problems ?

 

In all this, I see no particular assistance to the seeker, just .... prayers sprayed from the parapet.

 

In fact, to be taught one must study small things carefully, and dispense with over-arching grand sounding ideas.

[dawei]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:19 AM, rideforever said:

 

Is this a statement of fact, or a hope that one day it will happen ?
Or is this an instruction to sages, a reminder of what they should be ?

Is this an appeal to suicide because when you don't live then ... there are no problems ?

 

In all this, I see no particular assistance to the seeker, just .... prayers sprayed from the parapet.

 

In fact, to be taught one must study small things carefully, and dispense with over-arching grand sounding ideas.

 

Maybe we should evaluate it in light of Shamanistic teaching ?

[whitesilk]

On 12/2/2014 at 11:00 PM, Taoist Texts said:

They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane.

 

Key word for me is 'wisdom.' Upon my confirmation as a Christian, I had a dream that a great sage came to me and asked me one attribute that I wished to have bestowed upon my character. I asked for wisdom, and I sensed, in the dream state, that the great sage thought to himself, "Oh that is different, at least it is not a "Big Dick" request.'

[whitesilk]

On 12/3/2014 at 8:30 PM, dawei said:

The wise man constantly sees fortune and misfortune taking shape and adjusts his conduct accordingly.

 

Clearly's Taoist Classics [ISBN: 9780-I-57062-485-8 (V.I)]

 

Wen-Tzu 87. (p.213)

 

"Lao-tzu said:

When laws are intricate and punishments severe, then the people become devious. When those above have many interests, those below do a lot of posturing. When much is sought, little is gained. When prohibitions are many, little gets done.

To let concerns produce concerns, and then take concern to stop concerns, is like brandishing fire and trying not to burn anything. To let knowledge produce troubles, and then use knowledge to prepare against them, is like stirring water in hopes of making it clear."

 

This dualism themes your textual quote, @dawei. The part of the Wen-Tzu that I wrote makes me think that "trying not to burn anything" is a true Taoist intent. As far as 'clear' water that is 'stirred' goes, I think that this idea could be intended upon by a true Taoist as well. Take the film 'Die Hard' as an example. The scene when the man types his password into his computer in front of the german neo nazi that is attacking his building comes to mind. Could the man defending his building have typed a different passcode, and not granted his attackers access to his plans?

Edited February 19, 2019 by whitesilk
man to many