Confidence in the ability to awaken

[Jetsun]

There are some very useful tools and concepts in Buddhism. However, like any tools or concepts, they can be misunderstood and/or misapplied.

 

Yeah I agree, I think in particular there is great confusion about what enlightenment is. Personally what I perceived as the traditional view was that you cultivate for a certain time and then some time in the future, perhaps in many lifetimes, you might get enlightened, but I see now that that view is just another way to prevent awakening, something which would have to be let go of to have any sort of enlightening experience. It is only ever "now" where the separate self doesn't exist, not in the future, you could put it off for a long time but it is still about the now.

 

What I also saw as the traditional view was that awakening or enlightenment was incredibly rare, perhaps that was once true, perhaps it used to be a lot more difficult to awaken than it is now I don't know, but after meeting some normal awakened people that belief had to go too, one works in a supermarket, one is a student, one is a healer, they are just regular people all of whom no longer perceive life from the perspective of separation (at least for significant proportions of their day) , so the reality was that awakening wasn't this big rare mystical thing, it was actually quite ordinary and far more common than I ever believed.

[gatito]

Perhaps the only reliable benchmark is the cessation of suffering/stress (dhukka) as Siddhartha apparently said?

What's left when you're not suffering?

I've found that most people recognise that when they're not suffering their direct first-hand experience is that they're happy/at peace.

Maybe it's a hindrance to get caught-up in the concepts - because they're just concepts?

I suppose that what matters is that we're happy/at peace?

How rare is happiness?

Rare - but not very rare I think - and reasonably easy to obtain, as long as we don't cloud it with concepts.

 

"I have taught one thing and one thing only, dukkha and the cessation of dukkha."

Siddhartha Gautama Buddha

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha)

[Yasjua]

I had a dream this morning - long after it ended I stayed in bed, half-asleep, worrying, strategizing, reviewing, and contemplating the dream, as if it were real.

 

Waking life is very similar in that the events I've experienced have conditioned the way I relate to 'everyday phenomena' - from the walls surrounding me, to the food in the kitchen, and other objects I regularly encounter and interact with. I believe there are 'situations' that need dealing with and that these situations have more reality than, say, the apple on the table, and the moon and sky to which the apple is connected.

 

It's like I'm mulling over a dream I've been having since I was four years old - the dream of a self possessed by problems, insecurities, and constant dangers.

 

But the everyday phenomena I regard as secondary to my personal drama turn out to be the primary and singular reality, the whole thing is a meditation, your home, your grass, the texture of the clothing you touch, the warmth of your towel, the awe represented by the moon, the grandeur of the ocean waves, the ignorance that greets you in every face.

 

The mulling process, the habituation to phenomena, these are synonymous with laying in bed, done with a dream, but still thinking about it as if it's something real to worry about. You're waiting to wake up, but there's no such thing, really. The dream is always over. There's a persistent reification of our old dreams that takes the form of thought. Don't believe that you have problems that need mulling over and solving. \\You're in reality already, the destination is reached, tap into it through beauty. Beauty is very ordinary. I guess this is sort of a heart-recognition.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Yasjua

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Apologies...

No need for apology. You raised an important issue.

 

...the everyday phenomena I regard as secondary to my personal drama turn out to be the primary and singular reality...

Well said.

[3bob]

Well said above, Seeker.

 

Moreover, the progress ideally should not be self-determined, otherwise it becomes conceitedly foolish. Thats why great practitioners never acknowledge/proclaim their own realisations - they leave it others to verify and make the proclamations, based on the activities and actions resulting from their fruit of cultivation. Im reminded here of Paltrul Rinpoche, who epitomised this in the most genuine sense. Let the results speak for themselves - all else is just noise.

 

in some cases yes in other cases no - for example the historic Buddha proclaimed his realization to the hilt both verbally and also in teaching actions. Thus if he had remained a non-verbal hermit in the forest along with not speaking to any students who might seek him out even in the forest - then what teachings would Buddhists (if they even existed as a way) be reading, writing down and studying now?

[3bob]

an unhatched bird in an egg shell does not "give up" trying to crack the shell until it free of same, after which it would then be foolish to keep pecking at the shell

[C T]

in some cases yes in other cases no - for example the historic Buddha proclaimed his realization to the hilt both verbally and also in teaching actions. Thus if he had remained a non-verbal hermit in the forest along with not speaking to any students who might seek him out even in the forest - then what teachings would Buddhists (if they even existed as a way) be reading, writing down and studying now?

Unless we have reached that level, its best if we remain firmly grounded in recognising our current status, and show by our actions rather than words our own level of realisation. That was the point i wanted to put across.

 

Surely no one can deny another if there's that wish to make known how much and how far such a one have progressed on the path, but from experience, i can say that such clamouring serves no real purpose unless it can be followed up or demonstrated via results, and whereby these results are tested and acknowledged by one's mentors and peers alike. Even though one can move a mountain, but such an act would be in vain if said mountain were to exist only in one's imagination; but if in moving said mountain allows for greater flow of water and sunshine on an otherwise deprived village, then at least some resultant benefit can be tangibly obtained from such a feat, otherwise why even bother.

 

The Buddha lived his words, and constantly reminded others not to live by his words alone, but to work diligently towards lasting peace and freedom from the fetters. He was not a miracle man, and really had no need to make any statement of his own salvation, only showing by example that what he had obtained was nothing miraculous but a simple yet profound path that leads to the cessation of anguish, fear and self-delusion.

[3bob]

"nothing miraculous"? I'd say nothing blah, blah, being that the Buddha proclaimed, "a dweller in a boundless infinity of love" (Prajnaparamita) along with a great many of His other sayings!

[C T]

"nothing miraculous"? I'd say nothing blah, blah, being that the Buddha proclaimed, "a dweller in a boundless infinity of love" (Prajnaparamita) along with a great many of His other sayings!

Whats this 'blah blah' thing, 3Bob? Are you trying to be rude? If you are please say so, then its clear where you are coming from. Also, i dont remember reading about that 'dweller...' in the Prajnaparamita - could you kindly quote where that came from?

[3bob]

CT, below is the full quote - but I'm not sure of its verse number?

 

"Those who attain perfect wisdom are forever inspired by the conviction that the infinitely varied forms of this world, in all their relativity, far from being a hindrance and a dangerous distraction to the spiritual path, are really a healing medicine. Why? Because by the very fact that they are interdependent on each other and therefore have no separate self, they express the mystery and the energy of all-embracing love. Not just the illumined wise ones but every single being in the interconnected world is a dweller in the boundless infinity of love."

-Prajnaparmita

 

that was offered in contrast to what sounded like a profound(?) but blah blah, hum drum connotation per "nothing miraculous"

[Simple_Jack]

CT, below is the full quote - but I'm not sure of its verse number?

 

"Those who attain perfect wisdom are forever inspired by the conviction that the infinitely varied forms of this world, in all their relativity, far from being a hindrance and a dangerous distraction to the spiritual path, are really a healing medicine. Why? Because by the very fact that they are interdependent on each other and therefore have no separate self, they express the mystery and the energy of all-embracing love. Not just the illumined wise ones but every single being in the interconnected world is a dweller in the boundless infinity of love."

 

-Prajnaparmita

 

that was offered in contrast to what sounded like a profound(?) but blah blah, hum drum connotation per "nothing miraculous"

 

I did a google search and found that this paraphrase of Buddha's teachings seems to be from an Anne Barcroft in a book called "The Buddha Speaks":

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=_NR5Ua9yVWcC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=%22Those+who+attain+perfect+wisdom+are+forever+inspired+by+the+conviction+that+the+infinitely+varied+forms+of+this+world&source=bl&ots=XBveHK35ef&sig=NCHN-FipoL4Ok1WCNhIZc9O2-eg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WIiMVK-rFMXeoASq-4KIAg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Those%20who%20attain%20perfect%20wisdom%20are%20forever%20inspired%20by%20the%20conviction%20that%20the%20infinitely%20varied%20forms%20of%20this%20world&f=false

 

This paraphrase is quoted in a number of sources unrelated to Buddhism which can be found by doing a google search.

[3bob]

and, or - so what about it? (if those sites show some appreciation for a Buddhist saying)

Edited December 13, 2014 by 3bob

[C T]

and, or - so what about it? (if those sites show some appreciation for a Buddhist saying)

You could have been clearer and more upfront to mention that what you quoted was someone's interpretation of the Prajnaparamita and not words from the actual sutra itself.

[Simple_Jack]

and, or - so what about it? (if those sites show some appreciation for a Buddhist saying)

 

It's not really a "Buddhist saying", but someone's paraphrase of some kind of Buddhist teaching. It randomly shows up in a book called "A Dynamic God: Living an Unconventional Catholic Faith" (via googlebooks) among other websites unrelated to Buddhism.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

If you are not enlightened then how do you see?

 

 

What the hell is it anyway?? It's so easy to imitate ideas that I have developed an addiction to it....

Edited December 13, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[3bob]

Have you contacted Ms. Bancroft and verified your story, and while you were at it also verified that all the rest of the Buddhist quotes and material she complied were some kind of fake-ish paraphrases as one might hear being implied by you. (I'll bet the answer is no)

Edited December 13, 2014 by 3bob

[Simple_Jack]

I'm not sure we can establish your quote as a "translation". At best, that would be a loose translation, but since she doesn't cite which Prajnaparamita texts she got it from, I think its appropriate to call it a paraphrase.

[C T]

.

Edited December 13, 2014 by C T

[Simple_Jack]

Regardless of it being a translation or paraphrase: it's bad form not to properly cite the exact source.

[Simple_Jack]

In a published book no less.

[Simple_Jack]

3bob, if you're going to quote Buddhist teachings make sure its froma reliable/reputable source. That's why I quote a Sakya Loppon (Skt. Acharya) who can accurately read/translate Sanskrit and Tibetan.

[3bob]

agreed that the verse # or particular source should be easily available or given...

[Simple_Jack]

agreed that the verse # or particular source should be easily available or given...

 

You definitely want to avoid doing something like this:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35804-for-gatito/?p=595157

[3bob]

per the "noble eight fold path" I'd say it points to the meaning that one has little or no time or place for asides.

[Simple_Jack]

Yes, you're right 3bob, neoadvaitans like gatito should know that the noble eightfold path starts with right view.