Taoist meditation and Zen meditation

[nantogph]

Is there any difference between Taoist meditation and Zen meditation?

If yes, I shall be gretefull if someone please explain it.

[Michael Sternbach]

There are many kinds of meditative exercises (qigong) in Taoism, either done in stillness (neigong) or involving movement (waigong). The latter includes the internal martial arts, in my understanding.

 

Zen meditation is synonymous with sitting in za-zen, for the most part. Of course, the zen mind is also practised in various arts, martial and other. Zen practice has a lot in common with Taoist practice, not least in regard of its application of body principles (holding the spine straight for "connecting Heaven and Earth", dantien/tanden breathing etc.). Zazen can naturally induce the Microcosmic Orbit. However, Taoist meditation often makes use of visualization which zazen does not. It is very common in China that folks have a mixture of Zen (called Chan) and Taoism as their personal philosophy and practice.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Astral Monk]

I was reading Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen recently and felt that there was a lot of overlap in the aims of practice between zazen and qigong. Qigong helps us in many ways, not the least of which is physical well-being. Zen practice takes the most direct route to shatter the mind's attachments.

 

More generally, though there is overlap, I wonder if the ends are the same? Zen aims (inasmuchas 'aim' or 'ends' can be spoken of in zen) at the same liberation as Buddha; is the aim of Taoism liberation from samsara or perfect integration and harmony with it..?

[ChiDragon]

This is my understanding about the overlap which is similar to Astral Monk....

Zen meditation is a combination of physical and intellectual involvements. Taoist meditation has more trends toward the physical aspect for good health. Of course, a Taoist does has the intellectual aspect, also, but not through meditation in the same manner as a Buddhist.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[lifeforce]

Zazen, to me, as well as being a Zen (non)practice, is quintessential wu-wei.

It compliments Daoist philosophy so well.

I can think of no better way for a cultivator of the Dao to practice.

[MooNiNite]

taoists quiet the mind by observing,

zen quiets the mind by slowing the breath

[lifeforce]

taoists quiet the mind by observing,

zen quiets the mind by slowing the breath

In zazen, there is no focus on the breath, only in keeping the posture and quieting the mind.

If you are 'observing', you're creating more mind-chatter.

[lifeforce]

When Priest Yaoshan was sitting in meditation a monk asked,
”What do you think about, sitting in steadfast composure?”

Yaoshan said, “I think not thinking.”

The monk said, “How do you think not thinking?”

Yaoshan said, “Non-thinking.”

[C T]

"What is the mind? The mind isn't 'is' anything."

— Ajahn Chah

 

 

"The mind is neither good nor evil, but it's what knows good and knows evil. It's what does good and does evil. And it's what lets go of good and lets go of evil."

— Ajahn Lee

[MooNiNite]

In zazen, there is no focus on the breath, only in keeping the posture and quieting the mind.

If you are 'observing', you're creating more mind-chatter.

disagree

[lifeforce]

disagree

Ok

[lifeforce]

'The more you speak and ponder,

The less you concur with the Way.

Cease all talking and pondering,

And there is nowhere you cannot reach'

 

-Sengcan

[Ya Mu]

There was a study done by Japanese doctors (no I don't have a reference handy) where they monitored regional brain wave activity of practitioners of both Zen and Qigong meditation. They found both practices induced calmness but that the Qigong people also stimulated the creative centers of the brain whereas Zen people did not.

[lifeforce]

What if you practice zazen AND qigong such as I do ?

[ChiDragon]

What if you practice zazen AND qigong such as I do ?

hmmmm......

I am not surprise if one does both at the same time. However, I will be surprised if someone says "I only do Zazen but not Qigong."

Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon

[lifeforce]

I will be surprised if someone says "I only do Zazen but not Qigong."

Why would you be surprised ? There are probably many thousands of Zen folks who don't even know what qigong is, let alone practice it.

[ChiDragon]

Why would you be surprised ? There are probably many thousands of Zen folks who don't even know what qigong is, let alone practice it.

Okay, let assume the Zen folks don't know what Qigong is. May I ask what do you think Qigong is in your own words....??? This is not a challenge but to satisfy my curiosity.

[lifeforce]

Energy work

[Jetsun]

Is there any difference between Taoist meditation and Zen meditation?

If yes, I shall be gretefull if someone please explain it.

 

Most of the Taoist methods out there have been heavily influenced by Buddhism, or so Nan Huai Chin says and he seems to be a respected scholar on the subject. There was a big cross pollination of religions when Buddhism entered China so what was Taoism and what was Buddhism became blurred, then the Chinese Chan Buddhism spread over to Japan and became Zen, so there is bound to be some Taoist influence on Zen practice because of where Zen originated from.

 

That said whether there is a difference depends on what sort of Taoist meditation you are talking about, there are probably hundreds of different sorts. The most common ones usually involve some sort of focus on the lower naval area in mediation, whereas Zazen doesn't involve focus on any specific area of the body. Zen methods generally go directly to the non-conceptual, whereas Taoist tend to involve circulation of energy or trying to manipulate reality to some end. Taoist methods are usually trying to change something like increase internal energy or improve health, whereas Zen is about becoming conscious of what already is and what you really are without trying to change it.

[Bubbles]

A Taoist wouldn't sit over long periods of time like zen meditators would do during sesshins because it is not natural.

 

In chapter 78 of Lingshu, Qibo decribes the five fatigues as prolonged seeing injuring the shen-heart and the blood, prolonged standing injuring the kidneys thus the bones, prolonged lying injuring the energetic circulation, prolonged walking injuring the liver and the tendons and sitting injuring the spleen and thus the flesh.

 

I guess taoists know the spleen likes movements and would do moving meditations too to compliment with sitting and standing.

 

I am not talking here about the differences in aims and techniques, because there is much to say and this goes beyond my knowledge. I will only refer to Suwen chap 1 where people of the ancient times would adapt their behaviors to natural cycles and patterns, would moderate and balance all their daily activities, would keep their spirit free from any greed, desires etc.. and would then enjoy good health, wisdom etc...

 

My 2cts

 

edited for spelling and wording

Edited January 5, 2015 by bubbles