Do Taoists get angry?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

You mean you would like to keep hatred with anger within your system permanently.....???

 

Oh i totally walked into that one didnt i?

 

No, i would not like to expel anything out of my system unless its supposed to leave, i dont slim my toolbox just because hammers and saws seem agressive or have destructive purposes. I believe destructivity can be constructive or at least useful if not necessary. Look at famine, racism and misogyny to name three things, i'd like them utterly destroyed asap, its necessary and constructive for humanity imho.

 

Also i dont subcribe to thinking anything is permanent except maybe death, wich i know very little about.

 

I dont think its wrong to hate, nor do i think its right. I'll refer it to the "useful/useless" paradigm and use my anger and hatred to better understand my position, situation and current state of being.

For me anger comes and goes, hatred has come and gone (less smoothly but still) and i dont intend to nurture or prioritize any of them any more than any other emotion unless i need to.

[ChiDragon]

Oh i totally walked into that one didnt i?

........

 

That is fine because you have not claimed that you are a Taoist per se.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Silent Answers]

When I'm angry with someone I realize I'm cultivating a negative state. I take something I unnecessarily value (like money) and buy something for the person I'm angry with to simultaneously counteract anger, greed, and delusion.

Annoying comments coming your way. I'll inbox you my PayPal details

[Taomeow]

Although I "Like"ed your post I sure wish you could find a better word than "hate" to express those emotions you spoke to. (Yes, hatred was in there but I feel hate inhibits advancement.)

 

I started out by asking what it is, and suggesting two versions. No one agreed, disagreed, or offered their own so far. So I reiterate. What is hate? What is it people talk about when they use the word?

 

We all know, more or less, the surface meaning of "anger" -- some may know its real meaning too, I certainly do, from an excursion into deep feeling body-inclusive therapy many years ago. Anger is frustrated love. Another thing I found out "there" is that rage is frustrated aliveness.

 

But hate -- I don't know what it is, not in the direct, experienced, systemic way in which "anger" and "rage" were revealed to me. "Hate" was not -- that's because I couldn't go as deep into that, there's no depth to whatever I know as "hate." So I suspect it's superficial, something in the neocortex. Not systemic. And therefore does not reflect anything fundamental about a human being, only something cultural.

 

I was just reading of a tribe in the Amazon that's unbelievably cruel (Yaqui), and they don't have hatred -- they just have cruelty, cold-hearted cruelty, without emotional involvement, much like the way our own civilization is cruel, minus the cover-up -- stark, direct cruelty. E.g., prolonged illness is not tolerated -- if you don't recover in a "reasonable" time, they burn you alive. Same with children who are showing "deformities" -- they are not just burned but roasted alive, on low. The Yaqui are cannibals; they abuse women; they consider themselves spiritual, but choose to associate with malevolent spirits, because benevolent spirits are not helpful to a warrior in their world. Something went wrong with them far as I'm concerned -- and I believe their example shows that "cruelty" is also cultural, it's not part of the inherent human make-up.

 

It was a good idea to examine "hate" (thanks, Dusty), I never quite thought of what it is, but now I may have figured it out.

[Marblehead]

I started out by asking what it is, and suggesting two versions. No one agreed, disagreed, or offered their own so far. So I reiterate. What is hate?

Just off the cuff I would say that hate is anger amplified, repressed and personified. I think that for hatred to exist there must be an object for our hatred, like a life condition or a person, group of people, a boss, whatever.

 

Yes, I would agree that cruelty is learned. It can't be an instinct or basic need.

[Taomeow]

Yes, anger is natural, but it is a reaction.  Love is also natural, but it is a default state.  A reaction to the upsetting of a default state is an emotional reaction, a natural one.  Restoring the balance is impossible by withholding or redirecting the immediate natural reaction.  So when I say "anger is frustrated love," that's what I mean.  And "rage is frustrated aliveness" -- this is first experienced at birth in our civilization, since the woman in labor, even if everything else is fine (which seldom if ever is the case), is forced to lie on her back instead of squatting.  This impedes the infant's impulse to move toward life, since in the natural scenario, gravity works with the baby, helping, guiding and pulling toward aliveness in the world.  When mom is on her back, this automatically creates an impediment to this impulse -- hence rage, a vigorous systemic protest against being denied the smooth flow of aliveness.  If this is shut down as early as this stage (epidurals, etc.), the baby is born with the instinct of shutting down in response to danger rather than protesting, becoming numb and withdrawing reactions.  Mission accomplished.

 

This is what Reich either missed or chose to miss because he had a working theory which this foray into earlier events would throw off its main course -- but one of his students, Otto Rank, did discover birth trauma as the root of most imprinted aberrations in the human psyche.  The mistake he made though was to think that any birth is traumatic (a forgivable mistake since every "civilized" birth indeed is).  No -- but traumatic birth is traumatic.  

 

Agree with you that hate is not a feeling.  It's one of those as-if loops that begin and end in the upper brain.  Anger does not -- it starts in the lower brain, is mediated in the midbrain, and may or may not manifest in the upper brain (which is why so many angry people don't "consciously" know they are angry.)

[Rocky Lionmouth]

That is fine because you have not claimed that you are a Taoist per se.

 

And what if i had?

[ChiDragon]

................ No, i would not like to expel anything out of my system unless its supposed to leave, i dont slim my toolbox just because hammers and saws seem agressive or have destructive purposes. I believe destructivity can be constructive or at least useful if not necessary. Look at famine, racism and misogyny to name three things, i'd like them utterly destroyed asap, its necessary and constructive for humanity imho. Also i dont subcribe to thinking anything is permanent except maybe death, which i know very little about. I dont think its wrong to hate, nor do i think its right. I'll refer it to the "useful/useless" paradigm and use my anger and hatred to better understand my position, situation and current state of being.

 

For me anger comes and goes, hatred has come and gone (less smoothly but still) and i dont intend to nurture or prioritize any of them any more than any other emotion unless i need to.

 

And what if i had?

 

No, by the kind of statements had made by you, in red, you couldn't have claimed yourself as a Taoist to begin with.

 

If you were a Taoist, you would have tried to let the anger go and never return; and the same goes for hatred. At least, it seems to me, you have not done any cultivation as a Taoist at all.

Edited December 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rocky Lionmouth]

 

No, by the kind of statements had made by you, in red, you couldn't have claimed yourself as a Taoist to begin with.

If you were a Taoist, you would have tried to let the anger go and never return; and the same goes for hatred. At least, it seems to me, you have not done any cultivation as a Taoist at all.

Glad you sorted that out, thanks for the input.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[dust]

I don't know about hate not being a feeling/emotion

 

As the opposite of love, it's highly emotional

 

As a version of continuous, seething anger, it's an intense feeling

 

Maybe it doesn't matter how we define it, but.. if I feel it, and am told "Nah, you're not feeling anything, just change your attitude"... I think I'd just be burying a feeling under the guise of being practical and choosing a different attitude.

[dawei]

Glad you sorted that out, thanks for the input.

 

I don't want to speak for you, but I hear in you the focus I have: Path over Practice.

[3bob]

Hate and a form of fear are joined at the hip so to speak... but I would say that such a form of fear is not always so obvious in its ways - namely in the twists and turns it may take in both inner and outer manifestations . For instance one who lusts for power both hates and fears those that threaten him and may or will attack an apparent outer threat to quiet a twisted inner threat that is gnawing upon itself. Such a process or inner beast does not happen suddenly but grows and takes hold if not examined, understood and brought forth from the shadows where it loses it stolen power in the light of self insight.

 

(also, and or more simply put: fear of an other can easily lead to hate of that other)

Edited December 12, 2014 by 3bob

[Rocky Lionmouth]

 

I don't want to speak for you, but I hear in you the focus I have: Path over Practice.

Please do, what you said is in fact my long term investment-plan.

Practice is what i do any number of times a week, Path is life every second. The former supports and develops the latter.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[dawei]

Practice is what i do any number of times a week, Path is life every second. The former supports and develops the latter.

 

And the latter directs the former... an interesting loop

 

How would this tie back to the topic? I liked your toolbox analogy.

 

The toolbox has no attachment or preference but there is a right tool for a task.

[ChiDragon]

We have a new thread with a big subject coming up like "When you say Taoist you mean?" This question should have asked before the OP.

Anyway, I would like to say a final word to conclude this thread. I believe there will be more answers answered in the new thread.

Taoists are humans too. Of course, they may be angry. However, they will not and do not display anger.

Edited December 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

Be careful with this. The instinct of survival, self-preservation, never need be associated with anger. It's just something that needs be done.

Ok...but what about those with lesser survival instinct? Not all of us manage to pull it out the bag when we need it the most...

[Marblehead]

Ok...but what about those with lesser survival instinct?

They get taken advantage of.

 

Not all of us manage to pull it out the bag when we need it the most...

That is why there is a thing called "practice". We have to learn how to pull it out of the bag.

[Michael Sternbach]

That is why there is a thing called "practice". We have to learn how to pull it out of the bag.

 

Exactly. Realistic self-defence training will teach you to switch on in a split second, that is, to activate your "reptile brain". It's not about getting angry (you may not even have the time). It's about dropping the attacker in an instant almost unconsciously if need be, then go home to your family.

 

That being said, of course situations differ. On several occasions, I was able to discourage a would-be attacker while he was still building up his aggression - not by showing anger but signalling readiness and decisiveness. A good martial artist will stay calm during this stage and try to neutralize the threat but watch every twitch the opponent may make. It took me some time to calm down - after the situation was over. As my adrenal glands had obviously been quite active.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[liminal_luke]

Throwing out some thoughts based on previous posts...

 

Taoist anger gets the job done. The mighty Hun expanding up and out to meet life´s challenges when they are called on to do so. Un-taoist anger sits around in the body where it stagnates into depression or heart disease, or else loses it´s connection to essential meaning and purpose and spins out of control.

 

Liminal

Edited December 11, 2014 by liminal_luke

[dust]

There is no job to do

 

 

 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

And the latter directs the former... an interesting loop

 

How would this tie back to the topic? I liked your toolbox analogy.

 

The toolbox has no attachment or preference but there is a right tool for a task.

 

I loves me a loop!

 

I keep referring to feelings and thoughts as tools for the study of oneself and each opportunity to do, if taken, is going to be rewarding in the long run. Even when it comes to anger and hatred. Especially in something as cyclic as anger, hatred or dissapointment. Yeah it sucks but festering corners need to be cleaned, and if the cleaning doesnt stick then its time to see where the rubbish comes from, why it comes back. Hammers and saws might come in handy with that

 

Tied it back to the start at least, the logic is probably flawed but so am i

[woodcarver]

I wonder what nantogph is thinking hahaha

[ChiDragon]

Throwing out some thoughts based on previous posts...

 

Taoist anger gets the job done. The mighty Hun expanding up and out to meet life´s challenges when they are called on to do so. Un-taoist anger sits around in the body where it stagnates into depression or heart disease, or else loses it´s connection to essential meaning and purpose and spins out of control.

 

Liminal

 

I think an un-Taoist anger will not sit around and stagnate in the body. The reason is that there will be an outburst of anger when a person gets upset and become violent. There is a tendency to get even or revenge to release one's anger.

 

A Taoist will dissolve the anger by being encompassed with great tolerance and forgiveness. A Taoist probably will make up an excuse to forgive for those who initiated the anger.

Edited December 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

They get taken advantage of.

 

That is why there is a thing called "practice". We have to learn how to pull it out of the bag.

Sure. Now what I meant was that those that practice, say a hard martial art, need to be conditioned to apply a necessary level of intent into hurting someone. There is no other way to put it...to defend ones self, a fair amount of pain needs to be inflicted. I don't necessarily say it is anger nor aggression, but the mindset is hardly amused and happy...even if we are relaxed when fighting!

 

My question is, does this have a name?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Rara

[Rara]

 

Exactly. Realistic self-defence training will teach you to switch on in a split second, that is, to activate your "reptile brain". It's not about getting angry (you may not even have the time). It's about dropping the attacker in an instant almost unconsciously if need be, then go home to your family.

 

That being said, of course situations differ. On several occasions, I was able to discourage a would-be attacker while he was still building up his aggression - not by showing anger but signalling readiness and decisiveness. A good martial artist will stay calm during this stage and try to neutralize the threat but watch every twitch the opponent may make. It took me some time to calm down - after the situation was over. As my adrenal glands had obviously been quite active.

Oh definitely, I have only ever cooled situations before they have reached boiling point ever since I've been practicing.

 

But this reptile brain that we are not even conscious of. It can be quite a vicious thing. Just because we are not consciously getting angry (as we have been cultivating conscious calmness) there is something in us that instinctively needs to neutralise someone if need be. For me, violence is still associated with anger in some way. But I don't want this anger to be confused with the bar-brawl anger, or petty anger...