My path/Lineage/internal art is better than yours.......

[kudos100]

As I'm learning more about Taoism and internal arts, I see this coming up a lot. People claiming their way is the true way, and rubbishing other peoples path.

Previously, I had only read and practised Buddhist philosophy. While there is squabbling, it is not on the same level as with Taoist practices.

What is the deal with this and why is there so much of it about?

It reminds me of religious fundamentalism or kids in the playground. Seems to conflict with the very essence of Taoism............

[Chang]

My advice would be not to let this concern you. What you are describing here is simply the human condition.

 

It was ever so and I, for one, see no end in site. This need not however be a barrier to your own progress along the way. Simply make a point of questioning everything and then make up your own mind rather than letting others make it up for you.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

As I'm learning more about Taoism and internal arts, I see this coming up a lot. People claiming their way is the true way, and rubbishing other peoples path.

Previously, I had only read and practised Buddhist philosophy. While there is squabbling, it is not on the same level as with Taoist practices.

What is the deal with this and why is there so much of it about?

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Rara]

 

As I'm learning more about Taoism and internal arts, I see this coming up a lot. People claiming their way is the true way, and rubbishing other peoples path.

 

Previously, I had only read and practised Buddhist philosophy. While there is squabbling, it is not on the same level as with Taoist practices.

 

What is the deal with this and why is there so much of it about?

 

It reminds me of religious fundamentalism or kids in the playground. Seems to conflict with the very essence of Taoism............

 

 

 

 

Yes I found that.

 

Adolescence hehe.

 

The rest of us keep quiet and don't engage. Just ignore those convos

[kudos100]

It's called the internet

 

Perhaps I should have been more clear, I'm not just talking about the internet. Books, teachers, students.

 

I've met a number of teachers, who are highly skilled. They may be great practitioners and teachers, but they can't seem to help but subtly point out the flaws and problems with other practices.

 

I have also read things in books where the author does a similar thing. Granted it is not near the level of bickering and squabbling that you will find on any forum, but it is still there.

 

I have not had this experience with Buddhism so much, and I'm curious why it seems more prevalent in Taoist practices?

 

Insecurity, lack of structure, money, morals?

Edited December 9, 2014 by kudos100

[Rara]

Yeah. The troubles of turning life into a business. *Sighs*

[Rara]

 

I have not had this experience with Buddhism so much, and I'm curious why it is more prevalent in Taoist practices?

 

Really??

[Dainin]

Based on what I've seen on this board, there is probably more squabbling in the Buddhist sub-forums than anyplace else. Well except maybe for when Mo-Pai is involved!

[rldawson]

Use what pertains to you and walk your own path.

Edited December 9, 2014 by rldawson

[kudos100]

Really??

 

Yes, when I've been to different Buddhist groups I haven't had it as much. Not to say it isn't there, but I've noticed it more since I have been looking into the Taoist arts.

 

On the internet, squabbling seems to be pretty much a given, regardless of topic

[soaring crane]

My advice would be not to let this concern you. What you are describing here is simply the human condition.

 

It was ever so and I, for one, see no end in site. This need not however be a barrier to your own progress along the way. Simply make a point of questioning everything and then make up your own mind rather than letting others make it up for you.

 

a bit of a freudian there, what.

[soaring crane]

Yes, when I've been to different Buddhist groups I haven't had it as much. Not to say it isn't there, but I've noticed it more since I have been looking into the Taoist arts.

 

On the internet, squabbling seems to be pretty much a given, regardless of topic

 

"been to" and "looking into" denote two different activities, and give two different perspectives.

 

There's a huuuuuuge overlap between Chinese Daoist and Buddhist schools and there are virtually no purely-Daoist schools out there anymore. So, maybe the squabbling comes from the Buddhist influence? (kidding!)

 

Regardless, and dropping the Daoist vs Buddhist angle (see how that happens, btw? You started one of them in your OP), the lineage wars do become tedious and imo are a blind path that too many practitioners walk. Avoid it at all costs.

 

Been to Dharma Wheel yet?

[dust]

That's why my way is the best way! The Way of no way! (No way!) Yes way!

[kudos100]

There's a huuuuuuge overlap between Chinese Daoist and Buddhist schools and there are virtually no purely-Daoist schools out there anymore. So, maybe the squabbling comes from the Buddhist influence? (kidding!)

 

Regardless, and dropping the Daoist vs Buddhist angle (see how that happens, btw? You started one of them in your OP), the lineage wars do become tedious and imo are a blind path that too many practitioners walk. Avoid it at all costs.

 

Maybe due to very few schools, this leads to less people learning the same stuff and possibly more confusion? Could it be the lack of structure causes people to be more dogmatic about what they are practising?

 

I realise that with the opening post. In hindsight perhaps I should have left it out.

 

I am more drawn to Taoism and the arts than any other spiritual philosophy or practice, but this is something i've experienced a number of times and I'm slightly baffled by it.

 

Personally, I believe that most spiritual practices and arts end up in a similar place and that there are many paths to follow.

[silent thunder]

This is how I picture it.

 

It's like a wagon wheel. The 'human experience' and 'waking life' is the outer ring.

There are myriad spokes that extend from 'normal' life into the depths and heights of essence, awareness, etc...

all ultimately leading to Source.

 

We have all sorts of different names for the spokes and the paths.

None are right or wrong, (indeed nothing like that exists).

 

There is just what is... and at the center of the wheel is...

[Daeluin]

Great topic. Yes, this is the human condition, or simply a way the tao can flow. From one comes 10,000, and if some of those 10,000 decide to return to the one, their methods follow the path they were created from.

 

So if a fox and a frog decide to return to tao, and then get together and compare notes, they will find they have very different experiences.

 

When fox and frog come together, their discussion opens as a new cycle. It begins with growth (wood), the door is opened, and as communication engenders some level of presumed clarity (fire), judgment (metal) enters the scene to separate right from wrong, cool the fire and return the cycle to the origin (though often it evolves into a tangent before complete).

 

Especially in modern society and our scientific and technical advances, judgement of right and wrong is very dominant. It is so easy for us to project judgement of what may feel right or wrong for ourselves onto what should be right or wrong for others. Zhuangzi says nothing external can understand our own internal scope, and we can't understand what we see from the outside the same as is experienced internally by that entity. Certainly we can try, and use culture to bind our similarities tightly enough to share commonalities, but the principle still remains. Thus Zhuanzi advises we take what is right as what is right in front of us and so release the bindings of knowing right and wrong.

 

However, returning to the tao is complicated. The classical texts are subtle and complicated. The practices take decades of daily practice to manifest transformations, and frequently these practices emphasize purity and use isolation to protect this purity, which itself can easily become a metal dynamic of separation unless one learns how to preserve one's internal scope while harmoniously adapting to the needs of the external environment. Externally harmonious and flexible, internally firm and pure, is what Zhuangzi refers to as Walking Two Paths. Also practices of returning to tao feature some sort of martial arts, or qi gong, which allows one to cultivate a healthy body and replenish one's ming, but still requires one to harmonize the five elements within - when the elements are not harmonized, this large amount of extra energy will express itself externally, often as though under pressure. Martial arts can be very powerful, and requires great discipline to work through the challenges - the entire dynamic revolves around the principle of fighting, and fighting is polarity. Hopefully one is taught to dissolve the polarity within, to relax, even as one harness the strength of the relaxed heart-mind to overcome the challenges.

 

Naturally these are all my perspectives, unique to my own experience.

 

Whatever methods one is led to, they require significant and deeply sincere dedication of practice. Before one reaches the root, one will likely experience many transformations, and might attempt at understanding them, perhaps in discussion. But before one reaches the root, one is not there yet, as though one is on a moving train attempting to discuss the scenery with people looking out of different windows. Perhaps sometimes things will be similar through the different windows, but often it will be different, and different people will catch different things. Maintaining the conversation in harmony may depend on avoiding all judgements of right or wrong.

 

So when discussing the way to the root, how can those who have not found it understand it? And how can what is not understood be discussed? And yet the modern landscape makes it easy for us to be drawn to the discussion of understanding, and easy to project what we've experienced as right for ourselves as the only "right" for others as well.

 

At its core, taoist texts are rather objective and metal oriented themselves - many believe they were intended to be supplemented with oral and energetic transmission, and only used by masters as a tool for teaching, presumably freeing the student from the burden of understanding what cannot be understood.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

Also, discussion itself is an exchange of energy.

We share something, and if someone dismisses it but we are still attached to getting validation from it, we feel as though we have lost something. Thus is the way of expectation, and leads naturally to a dynamic of always being right, or correcting others when they are wrong, to avoid losing.

 

The Tao Te Jing advices to submit early and move on, rather than becoming more deeply invested in an exchange like this, which can only have a winner or loser.

 

Best to share what you have to share and release it, let it go. It'll be what it'll be. No need to worry about how others receive it, especially in the context of an internet forum. If you become attacked because of what you say, simply yield and let the attack slip past, and remain whole. Next time perhaps word things to avoid absolutes that others might get caught up by. And those who get caught up by absolutes can work on learning to let go.

 

The objective nature of taoist classics can appear rather absolute, and when wielded as doctrines of righteousness might have an tendency to engender competitive discussions.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Daeluin

[Rara]

 

Yes, when I've been to different Buddhist groups I haven't had it as much. Not to say it isn't there, but I've noticed it more since I have been looking into the Taoist arts.

 

On the internet, squabbling seems to be pretty much a given, regardless of topic

Interestingly for me, I've seen some warped "Buddhist" head-game warfare...but of course, this all depends on our different experiences and perspectives. Obviously, I've seen it in "Taoisim" too, well, mainly on the internet. Which I take with a pinch of salt. I've Googled and found "real" Buddhas, saints, Jesuses - you name it, they're there. Lol. So I don't think much to "isms", or organised religions of any sort for that matter.

 

FYI, I'm really not fussed about lineages. I walk in to wherever, take what I need, give back what is required then go on my merry way.

 

That's everywhere I go in life.

 

The moment we start stressing about who's lineage and path is best, is the moment we lose Tao for ourselves.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rara

[BaguaKicksAss]

While it's currently popular to think that all paths are equal, this is simply not true, and we know it. However it is not politically correct to point out otherwise. Some paths/teachers simply are better. The author/teacher who just made up some teachings last week is just not as good (and the practices could be outright dangerous), compared with someone who has been properly taught through a lineage. Also many teachers are purely book learned, never having had in person instruction, or never having had in person instruction from someone who purely has learned from books. These types of things are very bad for the students IMO.

 

However bragging about one's path or self is pretty boring and tiresome too.

[thelerner]

While it's currently popular to think that all paths are equal, this is simply not true, and we know it. However it is not politically correct to point out otherwise. Some paths/teachers simply are better. The author/teacher who just made up some teachings last week is just not as good (and the practices could be outright dangerous), compared with someone who has been properly taught through a lineage.

 

However bragging about one's path or self is pretty boring and tiresome too.

I agree, but for beginners I don't think its all that bad if they start off with community center yoga, meditation, tai chi etc., I'd rather see a beginner exposed to that then to wait for an ascended master to teach them or rare kung fu style. It can be a pity if they stay at the community center level, but such can be a good place to begin.

 

In the internet age we can become so informationally headstrong that we don't begin any practice.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I agree, but for beginners I don't think its all that bad if they start off with community center yoga, meditation, tai chi etc., I'd rather see a beginner exposed to that then to wait for an ascended master to teach them or rare kung fu style. It can be a pity if they stay at the community center level, but such can be a good place to begin.

 

In the internet age we can become so informationally headstrong that we don't begin any practice.

 

The only problem with that is if they choose to go further later on, there are many years of unlearning. With some teachers/paths, there is also a lot of damage to clean up by the new teacher.

 

Of course there should be places for those who are OK with keeping on the surface of things (my digital SLR camera has a fully automatic mode which I use, and I'm fine with that), but I feel people should know there are different levels of path, and some just are not the same as others. Many folks would have no interest in the time commitment and practice involved in the more traditional paths anyways. But to say it doesn't matter (as many do) or all paths are the same (most seem to feel this way), is fudging quite a bit I think.

 

Though I have had a past teacher say it is about the person's karma when I ask what about the folks who end up with a teacher who's students end up pissing blood and such after a bit of practice... So there is room for everyone, and different teachers/paths for different people/needs/wants, but still, at least I know there is a higher level of photography while I take snapshots off centered off the surroundings with my camera .

[BaguaKicksAss]

The Dalai Lama somehow managed to warn others of false or misleading paths, without being disrespectful nor an arrogant ass .

[gatito]

The Dalai Lama somehow managed to warn others of false or misleading paths, without being disrespectful nor an arrogant ass .

 

The chapter on the Dalai in this book is worth a read if you believe that: -

 

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/

 

So is this: -

Sogyal Rinpoche and the Silence of the Tibetan Buddhist Community and the Dalai Lama

http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/

[gatito]

Although, to be fair, on the plus side, he certainly seems quite well-mannered.

 

Perhaps that's just cultural though?