Trigram vs. Hexagram: To Begin, should I be treating them the same?

[nestentrie]

I Ching (yijing) seems like quite the dense and impressive thing that's full of observation and insight, but for someone not really interested in divination, and would prefer to look at it from another perspective, what would consumers here say about the general value and import of the thing? It really does seem a worthwhile study, however with the density of it, the general implication of what one might learn is more than a little opaque to a non initiate like me.

 

So I suppose I start with the most basic question: what is it? What is the most percipient thing about it that one could say? And are there things to learn about it that don't directly invoke the need to use it as a divining tool? Even general comments might help clear the fog for me on this.

 

I have an interest in the Bagua, which as I understand it are the 8 Trigrams:

 

乾 Qián ☰

兌 Duì ☱

離 Lí ☲

震 Zhèn ☳

巽 Xùn ☴

坎 Kǎn ☵

艮 Gèn ☶

坤 Kūn ☷

 

 

Furthering what I understand (though really only nominally) is that these Trigrams relate to Wu Xing (something I have great interest in), and are also used in feng shui. I suppose somewhere between those two things is where my interest is piqued, yet what have they got to do with yijing? And why can my google skills not spare me this confusion?

 

And speaking of google, I suppose brings up the chief reason I'm composing this thread. Barring getting recommendations on books (because I'm poor and can't afford them), where does one begin with the internet in this area of study? What does one avoid?

 

I see different things in pictures to do with the bagua. The aspect I'm most keenly interested in is how it can be said that these Trigrams relate to things like relationship and marriage, family and past, career, and fame. That there is an organisational aspect to it is fascinating. Is this the type of thing yijing illuminates?

 

I've tried numerous times to read translations of the commentaries on the I Ching and it's all sort of "yielding to the river: good time to plant crops" or somesuch or other (forgive my crude insenstivity; just trying to impress my exasperation), giving what seems to be (as all the psychics will probably say is obvious) advice in prognostication. Is there though more general observation to be found in it?

 

I'm vaguely aware that the trigrams and hexagrams came about rather independently, (albeit, not without conscious synergy) but what's the core philosophy? If i'm not satisfied that I can learn about yijing without divination, can I research Bagua and leave out the Yijing?

 

More questions that I know what to do with or phrase properly.

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited December 13, 2014 by nestentrie

[joeblast]

one can try to use an ancient codex to make notable relations to one's current life, but imho better to put the patterns of the codex into practice via their expressions at the dantiens. its unfortunate that I only seemed to be able to get that concept across to a handful of people.

[Michael Sternbach]

I Ching (yijing) seems like quite the dense and impressive thing that's full of observation and insight, but for someone not really interested in divination, and would prefer to look at it from another perspective, what would consumers here say about the general value and import of the thing? It really does seem a worthwhile study, however with the density of it, the general implication of what one might learn is more than a little opaque to a non initiate like me.

 

So I suppose I start with the most basic question: what is it? What is the most percipient thing about it that one could say? And are there things to learn about it that don't directly invoke the need to use it as a divining tool? Even general comments might help clear the fog for me on this.

 

Well, of course you could study the I ching simply as a system of natural philosophy - for the wisdom contained therein.

 

I have an interest in the Bagua, which as I understand it are the 8 Trigrams:

 

乾 Qián

☰ 兌 Duì

☱ 離 Lí

☲ 震 Zhèn

☳ 巽 Xùn

☴ 坎 Kǎn

☵ 艮 Gèn

☶ 坤 Kūn

☷

 

Furthering what I understand (though really only nominally) is that these Trigrams relate to Wu Xing (something I have great interest in), and are also used in feng shui. I suppose somewhere between those two things is where my interest is piqued, yet what have they got to do with yijing? And why can my google skills not spare me this confusion?

 

That's a good question. I will try to get back to you as soon as I have the time to look up a few things.

 

And speaking of google, I suppose brings up the chief reason I'm composing this thread. Barring getting recommendations on books (because I'm poor and can't afford them), where does one begin with the internet in this area of study? What does one avoid?

 

There are many approaches, depending on your interest. Personally, I found this thread quite informative and inspiring, including some of the links therein.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36432-how-do-the-hexagrams-transform-from-1-64-sequence-theory/?hl=hexagram

 

I see different things in pictures to do with the bagua. The aspect I'm most keenly interested in is how it can be said that these Trigrams relate to things like relationship and marriage, family and past, career, and fame. That there is an organisational aspect to it is fascinating. Is this the type of thing yijing illuminates?

 

I've tried numerous times to read translations of the commentaries on the I Ching and it's all sort of "yielding to the river: good time to plant crops" or somesuch or other (forgive my crude insenstivity; just trying to impress my exasperation), giving what seems to be (as all the psychics will probably say is obvious) advice in prognostication. Is there though more general observation to be found in it?

 

The thing is that the I ching (like other metaphysical systems, too) is based on a world view that regards things that have no connection in the common (rationalistic) sense as being interconnected by analogy. This also ties in with symbolism. It's a kind of shorthand which pertains to ALL kinds of things and events.

 

I'm vaguely aware that the trigrams and hexagrams came about rather independently, (albeit, not without conscious synergy) but what's the core philosophy? If i'm not satisfied that I can learn about yijing without divination, can I research Bagua and leave out the Yijing?

 

Of course you could - why not? However, you may naturally want to look into the I ching at a later stage, Personally, I find it quite rewarding.

 

More questions that I know what to do with or phrase properly.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

You are welcome. I hope that the answers I wrote off the top of my head are helpful in some way. Happy to talk more if you wish me to elaborate on this or that, or when you are ready to post further questions.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[nestentrie]

one can try to use an ancient codex to make notable relations to one's current life, but imho better to put the patterns of the codex into practice via their expressions at the dantiens. its unfortunate that I only seemed to be able to get that concept across to a handful of people.

 

I did see a couple of places where you showed that. Pretty fascinating stuff. However, for me, it was a case two things I don't understand coming together into something I'd have no hope to grasp. At least, not with my current skillset. Maybe I'll be asking you about it in the future.

[nestentrie]

There are many approaches, depending on your interest. Personally, I found this thread quite informative and inspiring, including some of the links therein.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36432-how-do-the-hexagrams-transform-from-1-64-sequence-theory/?hl=hexagram

 

Yeah I have checked that thread out. A little hard to follow, though I will check out some of the links (which I haven't so far done).

 

You are welcome. I hope that the answers I wrote off the top of my head are helpful in some way. Happy to talk more if you wish me to elaborate on this or that, or when you are ready to post further questions.

 

I think I would only keep spewing out the same question: can I learn about the hexagrams without having to deal with the whole load of hexagrams? If so, you got any websites where i could start?

[Michael Sternbach]

I think I would only keep spewing out the same question: can I learn about the hexagrams without having to deal with the whole load of hexagrams? If so, you got any websites where i could start?

 

Go to

 

http://www.hermetica.info/TongLink.htm

 

and scroll down to "Yijing Link Pages" - you will find a cornucopia of information. Have fun!

[Daeluin]

Polarization is a common theme in the unfolding of tao into the ten thousand.

At the birth of each new layer or dimension is the polarization of the previous layer.

 

In Eva Wong's translation of The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu, a commentary on the Ling Bao Bi Fa:

 

 

Lu asked:

 

"May I learn about the workings of heaven and earth?"

 

Chung said:

 

"The workings of heaven and earth are the ways in which the Great Tao is manifested in the universe. Upward and downward, it moves without ceasing. This is why heaven and earth have a secure foundation and can last for a long time. The secrets of their workings are not normally revealed to mankind."

 

Lu asked:

 

"How is the Tao manifested in heaven and earth? How can we understand the secrets of its movement? How can we initiate it? And when it is in motion, how can we recognize its effects?"

 

Chung said:

 

"The Great Tao takes on a form when it is manifested in heaven and earth. With form, the numerics emerged. The way of ch'ien is manifested in heaven and the numeric of its structure is one. That which is light and pure rises because its function is yang in nature. The way of k'un is manifested in earth and the numeric of its structure is two. That which is heavy and muddy sinks because its function is yin in nature. When yang rises and yin sinks, they will interact with each other This is the way of ch'ien and k'un, and it is the way the Tao works. There is a time to get things started and there is a time to collect the results."

 

Lu asked:

 

"The way of ch'ien is manifested in heaven and it follows the function of yang. Since yang governs ascent, how can it sink and interact with earth? The way of k'un is manifested in earth and it follows the function of yin. Since yin governs descent, how can it rise and interact with heaven? If heaven and earth do not interact, how can yin and yang be united? If yin and yang are not united, how can ch'ien and k'un perform their functions? If ch'ien and k'un do not perform their functions, how can things get started and be completed?"

 

Chung said:

 

"In the way of heaven, ch'ien is structure, yang is function, and its vapor accumulates at the top. In the way of earth, k'un is structure, yin is function, and its water accumulates at the bottom.

 

"When heaven follows the principles of the Tao, ch'ien (heaven ☰) will seek out k'un (earth ☷). In the first interaction, the eldest male emerges, and it is called chen (thunder ☳). In the next interaction, the middle male emerges, and it is called k'an (water ☵). In the third interaction, the youngest male emerges, and it is called ken (mountain ☶). When heaven approaches earth, ch'ien will interact with k'un and will give birth to the three yangs.

 

"When earth follows the principles of the Tao, k'un will seek out ch'ien. In the first interaction, the eldest female emerges, and it is called sun (wind ☴). In the next interaction, the middle female emerges, and it is called li (fire ☲). In the third interaction, the youngest female emerges, and it is called tui (lake ☱). When earth approaches heaven, k'un will interact with ch'ien and give birth to the three yins.

 

"When the three yangs interact with the three yins, the ten thousand myriad things are born. When the three yins interact with the three yangs, the ten thousand myriad things are nourished. The interaction of heaven and earth is founded on the natural attraction between yin and yang, and this attraction is part of the natural way of the Tao.

 

"Ch'ien and k'un interact to give birth to the six vapors. The six vapors interact to create the five elements. The five elements interact to create and nourish the ten thousand things. Ch'ien finishes its course of descent when the three interactions are completed. Thereafter yang rises again. Consequently the yin that is hidden in the yang also rises and returns to heaven. K'un finishes its course of ascent when the three interactions are completed. Thereafter yin sinks again. Consequently the yang that is hidden in the yin also sinks and returns to earth.

 

"When the yin in the yang cannot be exhausted by use, it is the true yin. When the true yin reaches heaven, it will meet yang and be energized. Since yin descends from heaven, how can we say that there is no yang within the yin? Yang is hidden in yin. When the yang in the yin does not dissipate, it is the true yang. When the true yang reaches earth, it will meet yin and be renewed. Since yang rises from earth, how can we say that there is no yin within the yang? Yin is hidden within yang. Always returning to earth, this yin never dissipates. Yang is hidden within yin. Always returning to heaven, this yang never extinguishes. This cycle of ascent and descent continues forever because the interaction of yin and yang is governed by the principles of the Tao. It is because of this that heaven and earth have a secure foundation and can last for a long time."

 

This is a system to describe any unfolding of the primordial into a complex dynamic of the interaction of yin and yang, five phases, 6 energies, and so on.

 

It is very subtle and complicated, but follows definite principles.

 

We have Change. Anything can divide into yin or yang.

And we have the root, the origin, the center, that which lies between any polarization.

 

Something polarizes into yin and yang, but between that yin and yang, where they meet each other and rub against each other, we have a third - that which is between. This is Qi.

 

So our yin and yang have a third, Qi, and this is the three part relationship described above as yin interacts with yang.

 

Simultaneously we have the polarization of yin and yang into the four forces, or the four directions. Lesser yang, Greater yang, Lesser yin, Greater yin. And in between them the Center. These are the five elements.

 

Simultaneously we have the polarization of the 3 into 6. Which ALSO is described by the six trigrams that are not all yang or all yin. These are the six qi's. And in between each of these lines are again the five elements, AND from another perspective their unified center, the seventh.

 

The 4 forces polarize to become 8, which are ALSO the 8 trigrams.... and you get the idea.

This is where taoism's study of nature is VERY simple, but complex beyond intellectualization.

The He Tu and Luo Shu diagrams each depict a different arrangement of the 8 trigrams, and the key to understanding the operation of these arrangements perhaps comes from how the 8 trigrams can manifest from different roots and in different contexts.

 

The four forces can be used to understand cycles, the beginning, culmination, return, and completion. But often, especially on our planet, there is no complete cycle - we are constantly in motion. Draw a circle on a piece of paper, as perfectly as you can. It isn't a circle, it is a spiral. The beginning and ending occurred at different moments in time and space - you are moving, and where the ending met the beginning is not where the beginning actually began. This is an important concept in studying change - the awareness of the spiralling nature of everything.

 

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In the 8 trigrams we have 8 elemental forces. Each of these forces represent a type of transformation in progress. There is a beginning, a middle, and an end, over time. The beginning is usually subordinate, the middle in a position of integrity, and the end is retiring. The truth lies at the heart, and the birth and death are not the truth, but important in shaping the truth.

 

Ch'ien, Heaven, all yang ☰, represents potential energy, firmness, strength. But remember this potential is untouched and pure until it changes through the invitation by the space yin offers it. Together the two embrace and change each other.

 

When yin enters at the bottom of two yangs, we call this wind, sun ☴. Wind is yin in nature, allowing itself to be lead how the differences in temperature direct, without using force, yet with the potential to un-root the two yangs above it. As gentle as wind may be, it may also penetrate to the deepest depths, should circumstances draw upon it so. In the pre-heaven arrangement wind follows upon heaven, stirring up the heavenly energy and circulating it to all corners. The first yin is receptive and docile, and yet the power, firmness and latent potential energy of the two yang lines find it difficult to resist this invitation to dissipate and achieve equilibrium with their surroundings.

 

When this yang finds itself stirred around to all corners by the yin, we have k'an, water ☵. Here we have the true yang in the center, being transported by yin at the beginning and end. The word "k'an" means pit, as one might fall into, and here yang has fallen into this pit and here it gathers. Water gathers at the lowest point and slowly builds, ever flowing to the lowest point, ever held up by the yin below, ever kept separate by the yin above. Water signifies wisdom and desire and represents the jing. Even as this true yang is drawn into one pit, so too it may be drawn into another, hence the dynamic of desire and ambition, and the nature of reproduction, where the true yang desires to find a home in the body of another.

 

When this gathered yang stills we call it mountain, ken ☶. The two yins are kept still by the firmness of the yang above. Even though the top yang is weak and retiring, it allows the true yin inside to find stillness. If the top line is weak and the yin does not want to be still and receptive, the seal is incomplete.

 

In the heart of stillness we have earth, k'un, the receptive, all yin ☷. Here we have true receptivity, as in space or time, which invite and receive the yang energies. But in the pre-heaven arrangement, our true yin at the heart contains a remnant of true yang hidden inside. Perhaps this may be seen in the substance of a planet or body. Earth is receptive to Heaven and allows creation to manifest upon its surface unconditionally.

 

When stillness culminates yang arises at the bottom and we have chen, thunder ☳. Here we have the growth of wood in it's yang, active stage, where yang is forceful and unimpeded by the receptivity of the two yin lines above. These two yin lines receive the powerful impact of the burst of force below them and are aroused into activity, and our still earth begins to move.

 

When active below and active above, what is true in the center burns, radiating in all directions. The nature of the burn depends on the contents of the true yin at the heart of fire ☲. This fire is also called li, which means separation, and signifies how the true yang it once contained as ch'ien was sucked into the pi of k'an and replaced by the true yin of k'un. Fire represents illumination and clarity, and in the body is the heart and shen. When fire is used to heat the water, qi arises following the dynamics of the six forces, and the true yang trapped within the water and the true yin trapped within the fire can be extracted and refined and circulated in internal alchemy.

 

When firm internally and receptive on the surface, we have tui, lake, or swamp ☱. Here we have internal potential and the invitation to joyously spend it externally. This is the dynamic of instant gratification and delayed gratification. When one's potential expresses forcefully what has been gathered is quickly spent. However when one's potential is conserved and the invitation is met with equanimity and receptivity, we transition from the dynamic of doing into that of non-doing, whereby the yin flexibly merges and yields in answer to the external forces in the world and the yang remains firm and preserved internally. Over time the yin settles and stills and transforms back into yang, returning us to the Heavenly trigram and completing the pre-heaven arrangement.

 

This pre-heaven arrangement describes the ebb and flow of yin and yang, where these forces operate in harmony with each other. The yang and yin interact but ultimately return back to their primal states. In the post-heaven arrangement however these forces mate with each other based on the operation of fire and water and the interaction of mass and light. We still operate with yin and yang, but the true yin and yang have been captured and sealed within the dynamic of k'an and li, and will not return to their primordial states unless coaxed to follow the pre-heaven transformations. The post-heaven dynamics describe how things evolve and transform in ever more complex structures, which is why they are used heavily in feng shui, divination, and martial arts.

 

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These are merely my own incomplete musings on the taoist cosmology and the eight trigrams. There are many descriptions of them to be found and undoubtedly I've left out some important bits or left confusing residue from an incomplete understanding. Ultimately I believe one needs to feel these forces internally, not mentally.

 

It is very important to understand the 8 trigrams, as they are the foundation of the 64 hexagrams. While there are different ways to perceive the six lines of the hexagrams, a simple way is one trigram on the inside which meets another trigram on the outside. Like the heavenly energy of the earth in the form of magma pushing forth and held within by the crust of the earth, represented by the mountain. Should the seal represented by the mountain prove an inadequate match to the pressure of the strong yang force below, the force is no longer contained and bursts out from the mountain top. Wind under Mountain represents the cleansing and repair of something internal, and Wind under Earth represents invitation to rise up into openness. Wind under Water is able to push the Water up, as a Well, while Wind over Water dissipates the water.

 

Each dynamic is unique and should not be dismissed as one entity - each line should be investigated to understand how important each role is to the over all change. If the second line in Wind under Water is weak, the lining of the well will be compromised and the Wind unable to create the pressure that brings the water to the surface (iirc). Each yin line represents stillness under influence to move. Each yang line represents firmness that is under pressure to move. So when reading into a given situation, one examines the components involved and is able to identify key factors, where if a yang line is weak and can become stronger, one would achieve the dynamic of that hexagram, but if that yang line is so conditioned and no longer has the energy to remain firm, it begins to operate more in a yin role, and achieves the type of change represented by that hexagram. If one is able to read deeply into the hexagrams, one can identify how things operate and see how they might tend to change over time, and their potential for alternate courses of change, should certain key components become reinforced.

 

The hexagrams represent a beautiful and profound way of exploring the interactions of complex forces amidst myriad layers of unfolding changes, but the 8 primal forces are at their heart. The more deeply one understands the 8 trigrams, 4 forces, and 5 phases, the more profound the 64 hexagrams become. Studying the 64 hexagrams is an endless pursuit; the possibilities and number of layers are infinite. Studying the 8 trigrams is much simpler. What is simple is powerful.

[nestentrie]

Daeluin, I've read what you've written. I don't mean to sound flippant, but this is going to take me a while to absorb.

 

I can say though, that your treatment has been considerate and thourough. Thank you.

 

Give me a few days; I should like to think that I'll come back at this with gusto.

[Daeluin]

Opening the Dragon Gate (tl Cleary), ch 10:

 

... Actually, the eight trigrams and sixty-four hexagrams should also be considered a hologram of the universe, with the evolution of all things proceeding according to the same natural laws.

 

A special feature of the use of the eight trigrams as taught to Wang Liping by his mentors is in regarding them as a sphere, rather than as a plane as ordinarily understood. The heaven and earth trigrams are the extremes, so they can be removed; the remaining six trigrams correspond to above and below, left and right, front and back, thus forming a three-dimensional structure. All things and all beings, all entities that have form, are inseparable from this sphere.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Daeluin

[Astral Monk]

Consider the relationships of each trigram and the elements they represent. When placed in opposition in hexagrams there is a dynamic. Fire under water...water over fire...fire rises, water sinks, fire under water is a reflection of bubbling, boiling, of one thing moving up through the other, of a passing between. Water under fire is a separation, a natural movement--that which sinks, sinks, and that which rises, rises. In Spring Forest Qigong we do a standing pose called 'formation of yin and yang' (hands held in front of body, right hand (yang) at upper chest, left hand (yin) at lower dantien) which can be represented by the hexagram for fire above, water below. This is a natural separation, in the case of the body, is means sinking down into the lower body while extending upwards towards the crown--the spine stretches and aligns. If you reverse this, with left hand on top and right hand at lower dantien, the energy will flow differently--water is lifted up and washes downward, while fire bubbles up from below, clashing in the middle and promoting energy exchange.

 

In the end it's all symbolism to try to express the natural movement of energy in the world. Really, what does a solid line have to do with anything? A broken line? Ones and zeros. Can the world be reduced to ones and zeros in sequence?

 

8)

[joeblast]

solid, broken, wax, wane, yang, yin....yeah, dantiens do that

 

[Callanish]

Nestentrie

In trying to contemplate the significance of the "IChing" - what is its meaning, what is it

used for…one needs to be aware of the profound difference between the way in which

the Chinese mind thinks vs. the Western mind. The Chinese see the element of chance as intrinsic to natural law which governs the sequence of events in our daily life. It is the

causality of events, the manner of cause and effect, that defines the science of western thought.

 

Anyone who uses the IChing to understand the significance or result of the occurrence of events.. at that moment in time wherein the coins randomly fall or the yarrow stalks are randomly divided..

must obviously follow a belief system synchronistic to Asian philosophy.

 

I have been using the IChing to guide me in making decisions, to deal with and understand my

conflicts - generally to describe the situation in front of me and help me to see where I

am going with it. I do not see this "Book of Changes" as one to be used for devination

(or fortune-telling as described by some). For me it has evolved over the past 40+ years of use, into a kind of moral, ethical standard around which I base most actions in my life.

 

Nestentrie, I did not answer to the title of your post re: Trigram vs. Hexagram; as that is a

more structural question that I'd like to address at another time... this subject is SO profound

I can only make my comments in small doses.

 

Callanish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

I'm vaguely aware that the trigrams and hexagrams came about rather independently, (albeit, not without conscious synergy) but what's the core philosophy? If i'm not satisfied that I can learn about yijing without divination, can I research Bagua and leave out the Yijing?

 

More questions that I know what to do with or phrase properly.

 

No, you cannot research Bagua and leave out the Yijing.

 

the-yi-jing-begins-with-the-eight-symbols-of-the-ba-gua