Magic and occultism

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

I suspect he means in danger from people who wanted the secret and didn't care how they got it, like Edward Kelly or Alexander Seton were in danger from an Emperor and an Elector respectively, though originally both were received with honors, they were imprisoned for not cooperating.

 

Exactly.

[closrapexa]

Most seems centred in things associated with Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor (itself perhaps derived from the German R+C Order - as the G.D. may have been) - Blavatsky's 'pre-India' period, people like Paschal Beverly Randolph, etc. which seems to have gained its 'western tantra' from Sabbatianism but went through a stage of the 'Order of Asiatic Brethren' - itself a reference back to 'Asia' . But perhaps its roots were in mystical ecstatic Judaism - if the Sabbatianism link is considered valid ?

I don't know but things that develop have a tendency to, well, develop and cannot always be recognized by later iterations. There is strong evidence Jesus had connections with the Essenes, a cult centered near the Dead Sea obsessed with the end of days. Before that, Judaism as we know it didn't exist, it was a hodge-podge of different influences taken from everyone that had been in the Holy Land since the Phillistines and Egyptians. The Temple of Solomon shows hints of Egyptian sun worship. Although the Torah existed a good long time, the Tanach itself was only codified in its complete form about the same time as Christianity. Before that, there is a theory about a tribe in Africa called "Afro Habiru," who were thought to be devotees of Horus. They weren't Jews by any means, there's simply a (very thin) thread running throughout history.

 

The scrolls found at Qumran contain some ideas that would today heretic to both Judaism and Christianity, and they are examples both of single opinions and the prevalent modes of thought.

 

So basically it can be said that one idea connected with others, changed, evolved and combined.

Edited January 9, 2015 by closrapexa

[Nungali]

I suspect he means in danger from people who wanted the secret and didn't care how they got it, like Edward Kelly or Alexander Seton were in danger from an Emperor and an Elector respectively, though originally both were received with honors, they were imprisoned for not cooperating.

 

 

Ah! I see what you mean.

 

Thats freaky ... once at a festival we put on , my little group put on a Summer Solstice rite, I guessed about 30 would turn up. We have a large outdoor circle on our festival site ... 300 turned up !

 

Anyway, it went off! Some people said it was the best they had attended, some were beaming, charged up, happy and appreciative.

 

But this weird guy 'came at me' and started raving about how he was this great Shamanic teacher and wanted to know what and how I got things to go so well, wanted me to tell him ... demanded I tell him ! (and all the way through his raving he was making these unconscious hand gestures of reaching at me grabbing the air and pulling to himself).

 

I told him it was a simple case of setting up a well arranged skeleton and letting the people involved go freeform within that ... THAT was what made it work so great ... most of the really amazing stuff was spontaneous, all I did was the organisation and keep things within boundaries.

 

He wouldnt have it ! He insisted there was some secret formula and he needed that for 'his work' .... he became an annoyance for the rest of the festival ... until (in his 'truth workshop' he was running) a woman got up and 'spoke her truth' about what she felt about him and his presence through the festival ... oh yeah! She really let her 'truth' out at him

[Nungali]

If you did have a physical Stone - and it was a credible claim (backed by demonstration) - then history would be a good guide as to what would likely happen to you: robbery, manhunt, imprisonment and even torture. This has been documented in relatively recent times.

 

 

Technology?

 

 

Well, in the thread above we were specifically discussing the literal, physical Philosopher's Stone...

 

 

Okay ... we are restricted by that to the one type and definition? If so I get your point. You have a hen that lays a golden egg, you better hide it ... and melt down the eggs ... and cast them as some sort jewelry and hock it and spend the money on the black market ... and hide it from the relatives ... and move interstate .

 

I was discussing A literal 'Philosophers stone' ... but I know many disagree with me and think the incredibly symbolic and analogous descriptions in the literature only describe ONE TYPE of thing ... <shrug> ...

 

IMO they are both varied descriptions of one thing and also varied descriptions that describe various things for various purposes .... I have posts around here in various topics on it ... basically relating to 'earth alchemy' and Biodynamics where some alchemical texts and processes and results are compared with the same in Biodynamics (and Donald contributed some interesting links as well, to a type of 'hermetic gardening' process ) .... sorry, cant remember the thread name or location .... or if you took part in it ?

 

By technology I mean the process and equipment involved. In natural 'earth alchemy' there is no danger, in metallic or chemical alchemy there can be, in 'nuclear alchemy' - definitely !

 

In terms of the roots of what is commonly called the 'Western Esoteric Tradition', we can trace it through Egypt, the Greeks, the Sufis, and Spain, right through into Italy, France, Germany and England (and elsewhere, including America) in the 1200s-1600s.

 

Surely the Alexandrian Synthesis plays a bigger part ? I have to think that included 'Asia Minor' and the 'Zoroastrian influence' ? Most of the recent stuff seems to have evolved out of 'esoteric Masonry' and its split offs ( even the German R+C ). I suppose the 'myth' of Freemasonry has to be included , itself based on a Jewish tradition, many things seem to have a root in Freemasonry.

 

 

Things start getting mighty confused in the 1800s due to the popular occult revival. Since then, anyone can say anything and it is impolite to disagree. The end result of that has been chaos. There have always been pretenders, of course... just now they are tolerated because most people don't know any better.

 

Impolite to disagree ... everyone is a winner ... every opinion is valid .... <sings>

 

Harmony and understanding

Sympathy and trust abounding

No more falsehoods or derisions

Golden living dreams of visions

Mystic crystal revelation

And the minds true liberation

... Aquar rrr iuuus ! Arr querie arrrse !

 

There is some indication to believe that the German R+C order was a legitimate possessor of occult knowledge... and there is some slight indication that they may even still be operating today, in secret as always. I agree with you that that they probably 'inspired' the original G+D to some extent.

 

Legitimate possessor ? Do you mean valid or credible occult knowledge or that they are the ones that had some type of 'authorisation' and license to use such knowledge?

 

I thought they too were set up by a Masonic body ?

 

 

Though having been a member of several 'Rosicrucian' orders, I don't believe that there are any in existence today that are operating as initiatic entities in the true sense. Why would anyone want to associate themselves with that mess?

 

UFA

 

Well if you yourself have been a member of them, I guess you can answer your own question.

 

I dont know what you mean by this ; " operating as initiatic entities in the true sense."

 

IMO ... as long as they can deliver the goods ... who cares about their 'occult legality' or 'charter of operations' or inheritances ... validity, etc (if this is what you mean ? ) .

 

Many cultures 'Golden Chains' lie broken ... its up to us IMO to link them back together ... otherwise they just sit there broken and useless. I believe this can be done validly ... I have observed it with the reforming of indigenous systems here ... and they didnt even have texts (as such)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I don't know but things that develop have a tendency to, well, develop and cannot always be recognized by later iterations. There is strong evidence Jesus had connections with the Essenes, a cult centered near the Dead Sea obsessed with the end of days. Before that, Judaism as we know it didn't exist, it was a hodge-podge of different influences taken from everyone that had been in the Holy Land since the Phillistines and Egyptians. The Temple of Solomon shows hints of Egyptian sun worship. Although the Torah existed a good long time, the Tanach itself was only codified in its complete form about the same time as Christianity. Before that, there is a theory about a tribe in Africa called "Afro Habiru," who were thought to be devotees of Horus. They weren't Jews by any means, there's simply a (very thin) thread running throughout history.

 

The scrolls found at Qumran contain some ideas that would today heretic to both Judaism and Christianity, and they are examples both of single opinions and the prevalent modes of thought.

 

So basically it can be said that one idea connected with others, changed, evolved and combined.

 

 

Yes ... synthesis. Nowadays the western tradition seems to be resurfacing a lot more. In the past (back in pre-internet days ) I noticed many in the west seemed oblivious to their own traditions and were seeking eastern imported spirituality , unfortunately then, often in a western or new age form.

 

Today things seem (in some places) more focused on the roots and original teachings , while in other places it just seems all mixed up in a hodge podge of muddy , feel good, marketing , quick' fix' .

[closrapexa]

Today things seem (in some places) more focused on the roots and original teachings , while in other places it just seems all mixed up in a hodge podge of muddy , feel good, marketing , quick' fix' .

 

Dion Fortune may have been racist, but her (infamous) quote about the Western traditions being uniquely suited to the "white peoples" does in fact have a grain of truth to it. I often combine biblical stories with study of the Tree of Life not because I believe in the Bible, but because I can recognize and am perhaps better "attuned" to its ideas, symbolic vocabulary and modes of thinking. These are the stories and symbols that affect me emotionally, and they are omnipresent in all Western culture,even something unconnected like the story of Goldilocks. While "other things" like Karma and chakras and whatnot have validity for people who use and connect with them (even going so far as to synthesize them into the Tree of Life) the new and exotic isn't always better.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Hi Nungali,

 

 

We are not restricted to one type and definition. It is simply how the conversation was framed.

 

 

I don't think that the "stone" is merely symbolic or that there is a single meaning.

 

 

I took part in it. I love gardening but to be candid, I do not share the belief that that 'earth alchemy' or biodynamics is alchemy. It is archemy, perhaps. IMO.

 

Thanks ... I had to look a word up, I like that. This time it was elusive , I got a range of insistence that I meant 'alchemy' , stuff related to 'green design' , art that displayed scientific principles, various companies ... an alchemy forum discussion on it about crystals ( thats a relation to BD ) but it went off about energy in 'the crystal skulls ' (Oh - O ! ) ...

 

Can you direct me to what you think is a good description .... perhaps in some meanings it is a much better to describe BD than alchemy is ?

 

This whole paragraph kind of lost me. :-)

 

I don't recognize 'earth alchemy' as a thing. I view alchemy as being a very specific set of practices. Though maybe it's above my pay grade... who knows what I don't know?

 

Or I am just liberal with the use of the word.

 

My take? Freemasonry was not a root, it was a leaf. The purpose of the vulgar is to act as the guardian of the Mysteries. IMO.

 

 

Not sure if I was clear there? I didnt mean Freemasonry was the root of all of the western traditions, yes, in this case it may be seen as a 'leaf'. I meant that may popular groups and movements seemed to evolved from other groups that evolved from The Freemasonic groups. Like most of, if not all, the 'R+C' bodies in the Americas. Things that came out of the G.D. (like it or not) Crowley was / is ? popular; a or a would be Mason, his OTO is fairly large and based on an interpretation of Freemasonry, his other stuff seemed based on his development or take on G.D.. 'Wicca,' some say, is a derivative, etc and ... (see below ).

 

I mean practical occult knowledge. No authorization needed. Just like science. If you know it and it works, then you possess it. The only difference is that the hidden knowledge is based on a different paradigm.

 

 

You got me there... would be interesting to learn more.

 

About the Freemasonic roots of the German R+C order ? I will have to go into my files. Its just an idea. This is around the time when there are a lot of gaps in any sort of documentation .... I will have a 'fish' and post below.

 

Most (all?) organized bodies initiate in a symbolic or ceremonial manner. True Initiation takes place on the inner realm.

 

Most certainly! Some get it regardless. Its part of life - regardless. One just needs to find it represented in the way one can relate to and that is potent. Otherwise it is an empty ceremony and meaningless to many. I have seen people go through the same initiations, some have had related initiation on the inner plane * and some have not seemed to had any whatsoever.

 

* How this manifests : whether it 'stimulates' the processes and/or gives a 'map or model' or whether it is a 'dramatic ritual' to help explain what has already occurred on any 'inner realm' (again dependant on the person or group) is another long and interesting discussion.

 

My view and focus on it is very wide and eclectic though ... from the 'armchair' and 'in the field' , over different time and location and from a view of both cultural anthropology and my own processes. So I am not set on any one process, I find it a vast and interesting field though and even go as far as to say it (a relevant system of initiation in a culture / society) is the glue that holds it together , and when it is lacking, things start to fall apart (even in identifiable progressive stages, regardless of the time and location ( I know that is a rad statement ... it was the basis for my thesis ... I failed ..... then

 

​But now programs are in place all over ... here with the indigenous ... boy to manhood groups ... because they have realised how crucial that is .

 

But as I said, a fascinating but perhaps separate topic.

 

I've been initiated by a lot of organizations. None of that mattered one bit. I now see how foolish I was for investing my identity in those things for such a long time.

 

There is another variation I missed above ; the ones that DO get satisfaction, then they go beyond the form.

 

Eg. I found out a guy I knew was a R. A, Freemason. This surprised me. On talking about it he said he got all he wanted and then it became shallow. he wasnt getting it any more. One time he went on a solo camping fishing trip and found this great spot. Nature did it for him, He went through a whole new experience and level out there. That was it for Freemasonry for him, he left it behind like old shoes.

 

 

 

I agree with you completely.

 

 

Absolutely. Knowledge gained by man can never be lost. It can always be recovered.

 

UFA

 

[Nungali]

First I suppose we need to identify ; ‘German Order of the Golden Rosy + Cross’ (from G.D. documents) , ‘Order of the Golden and Rosy Cross’ from other sources. That was the group I meant.

 

 

“But the Shabbataian influences of the Golden Dawn have even more prominent origins from the later offshoot Asiatic Brethren.” - so we need to consider ‘The Asiatic Brethren’ as well as ‘Shabbataian’ roots and influences .

 

“The original Fratres Lucis or "Brooderhood of Light" was founded in Germany by the baron Ecker Von Eckhoffen, a past member of the Golden Rosy+Cross and also founder of Asiatic Brethren. All these German fraternities were deeply involved with the practice of alchemy. My historical researches into these topics proved that many members belonging to the Asiatic Brethren of Fratres Lucis became members of a German masonic lodge called L'Aurore Naissante (or "the Nascent Dawn") founded in Frankfurt-am-Main in 1807. Westcott wrote that this lodge was a "very ancient Rosicrucian Lodge of Frankfurt-on-Main were Lord Bulwer Lytton was received into Adeptship".

 

http://www.golden-dawn.org/theoriginsofQabalahoftheGoldenDawn.html

 

There is this , if you like Wiki ;

 

“The Order of the Golden and Rosy Cross (Orden des Gold- und Rosenkreutz, also the Fraternity of the Golden and Rosy Cross) was a German Rosicrucian organization founded in the 1750s by Freemason and alchemist Hermann Fichtuld.[1] Candidates were expected to be Master Masons in good standing. Alchemy was to be a central study for members.[2] Much of the hierarchical structure for this order was used in Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (SRIA) and from there, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.[3] “

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Golden_and_Rosy_Cross

 

 

For more detail , Fr. Archer's Article @

 

http://www.theomagica.com/on-the-occult-order-of-the-asiatic-brethren/

 

 

[ * controversial content approaching - warning * ]

 

 

For a rad view:

 

http://www.surrenderingislam.com/surrendering-islam/hermetic-brotherhood-luxor

 

and the preceding and following chapters. ( Masonic British secret service agents bring rite to Egypt to indoctrinate and form a ‘Young Muslim’ uprising, to assist in the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire, but latter land and power carve ups - and extended wars - cause the movement to eventually evolve into Al Qaeda … Oooops ! … and from this we get our western mystery schools. )

 

Or maybe I should say ;

 

 

“ ! … and from this we get our western mystery schools ? ! “

 

 

 

 

 

..... " believe in some ancient Muslim influence from the crusades via the Knights Templar all the way through to British Freemason Secret Service agents ( cough ... cough ... ) that set up bogus initiatory bodies in Egypt for subversive political purposes ..... Moi ?

 

'Noooo ... I was just always fascinated by Burton's 'Arabian Knights' "

 

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Hi Nungali,

 

 

It's an odd word with no authoritative definition. A general definition is 'despiritualized alchemy'. A more specific one is alchemical-like transmutations achieved through ordinary chemical means (so for instance, the 'puffers' would have been rightly labeled as archemists.)

 

I prefer the former definition as it covers the wide variety of practices which have been wrongly labeled as alchemy.

 

Oh ... well, definitely NO then. My understanding of bio-dynamics was more based on the physical substances; the fertility and micro organisms established.

 

But that isnt the theory, the mediums made are just a vehicle for a 'spiritual substance' or to contain an 'etheric energy' (although I found they couldnt seem to clearly describe what they meant these terms to mean ) that is translated into soil, air and food , and then people.

 

This side of it I first greatly doubted. Until I started working in depth with preparation 501 ( made with crushed quartz crystal rods into a fine dust) ... it does not dissolve into water , no matter how much you treat it, and it has to be finely filtered (or you will chew out the seals in your spray gear in no time ) ... yet somehow the 'effect' is within the 'transformed' water.

 

I am pretty sure it is after I used it wrongly and observed the havoc it caused ... technically it is just plain water and should not have done that at all . But I am cynical and doubting ... I look for Occams Razor .... maybe that was a series of coincidences ?

 

But then I started selling more and more 501 to wineries .... they were using it as they said it definitely changes and improves the 'terrior' (personally, I wouldn't have a clue about that or wine ... but) they insisted, since using it their wine had improved to the extent that it started winning prises .... soon they became nearly panicked if their supply was running low near the time to use it (yes, they started using the astrological application schedule) . They are still winning prizes, then other wineries got onto it.

 

I dunno ... I am still hmmmm about it . But it was strange to have these other 'straight' red-necked farmers sneak in the back way to the lab and want to buy the products and ask me not to tell anyone about their use of ( as one put it ... ) "Fairy dust' :laugh: .. and when I asked why, they insisted it made a phenomenal difference on their farm.

 

<shrug> ... 'they' insisted something was going on.

[Nungali]

The connection between the Knights Templar and the Muslims is well documented. The Arabs were the primary keepers of Hermetic knowledge for a long period. We know the Knights Templar had dealings with the Muslims and this was a vector of transmission of alchemical knowledge from east to west.

 

There is said to be similarity of structure and the use of certain words which suggest that the Freemasons had their roots in the Sufi Order known as the Builders, founded in the 10th century. Robert Graves states that Freemasonry began as a Sufi society and reached the shores of England between 924-939. It was disguised as a craft guild at the beginning of the 14th century by the Knights Templar.

 

The Templars were accused of worshipping a golden head (Baphomet). This shares a linguistic commonality with the Arab word, abufihamat, which means 'father' or 'source of understanding'. In addition the Sufi Phrase, 'The Golden Head' (sar-i-tilai) is used to refer to a person whose inner consciousness has been 'transmuted into gold'.

 

The Arabic wird means 'dervish exercise' and is used poetically by the Sufis as ward, which means rose. The root, SLB, means to 'extract the marrow' (eg: the inner value of an exercise). It also means 'cross'.

 

So WARD SLB was transliterated as Rose-Cross.

 

UFA

 

I have heard the story, and considered it part of certain groups initiatic 'mythology' ( some replace the Hiram 'myth' with this story in 'fringe Masonic' initiatory fraternities ) . I have also seen it disputed academically ( and that goes for King Solomon's temple as well) .

 

Perhaps one view need not effect the other ?

 

[ I like this ; " 'extract the marrow' (eg: the inner value of an exercise " ... not just doing the exercise, or its value but how to extract the value of it , not just learning, but knowing how to learn, not not just enlightenment, but how one deals and applies that faculty (as a builder, poet, king, peasant ) - typical Sufi outlook ]

Edited January 12, 2015 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I like this ; 'extract the marrow'.

 

There's no need to take the pith.

 

More seriously, I will second this;

 

True Initiation takes place on the inner realm.

...

[Nungali]

Certainly Captain !

 

It does help one to know how to navigate that realm and posses a map though. problem seems to be that some mistake the map for the territory, or the 'demonstrated dynamics in dramatic ritual form' as the 'inner reality'.

[Michael Sternbach]

Some believe that there once was a complete and perfect system of spiritual knowledge in existence. They tend to think, this or that secret brotherhood is preserving it unaltered to this very day.

 

Truth is, whatever body of knowledge there may have been once, it has been fragmented into so many pieces. We can find them, in many different times and places, and put them back together. If we happen to blend them with new insights, that's fine, too.

 

Surely, every time and place has its unique perspectives and its own contributions to make. Moreover, universal truth must be expressed in ever changing ways in order to stay relevant.

 

There is no evidence for a continuous tradition from times immemorial, and there is no need for one. People who are making fundamentalist claims in this regard are materialists at heart. They don't understand that what is true may be received anew by inspired individuals, over and over. They also don't understand that there is a new spirituality in the making, synthesizing parts and pieces of a universal jig-saw according to a hidden agenda which is of Mankind, of the Earth, and of the Universe. It IS alchemy in action, on a universal scale - that is, following the principles of this universal art.

 

Aude sapere.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA