Marblehead Posted December 15, 2014 One can be a SOB to begin with then become a cultivated Taoist after enlightenment. Thankful that! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted December 15, 2014 1. 2. Sorry, about that.....!!! When I think negatively in my mind, I always mistakenly typed positively. So, let me rephrase while respond to you at the same time. If Tao can be spoken with one word, then it is not the eternal Tao. By reverse logic: If Tao can't be spoken with one word but many words, then it is the eternal Tao. For that being said, one can see that five thousand words(characters) were used, in the TTC, chapter by chapter to describe Tao by Lao Zi. In the TTC versions that I am familiar with, Dao can't be explained by words, there number being irrelevant. I never saw your particular translation of ch. 1 in the TTC before. Is it your own? 3. I don't think it was necessarily for me to be a "Taoist in nature" to begin with and still may become a Taoist by cultivation. One can be a SOB to begin with then become a cultivated Taoist after enlightenment. One can be a SOB and nonetheless be a Daoist underneath. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 15, 2014 Not that anyone is stopping people from calling themselves Daoists. But we have to ask...if you're not trained in how to cultivate as a Daoist, then how can you cultivate as a Daoist? It can be done by self-cultivation which means self-study and self-discipline. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 15, 2014 ........... I never saw your particular translation of ch. 1 in the TTC before. Is it your own? This is not my own translation. It is the only known and up-to-date interpretation in the present Chinese literature. I was only translated from that into English. It is the way we(the natives) believe what it was actually saying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 15, 2014 One can be a SOB and nonetheless be a Daoist underneath. I think that is where the "after enlightenment" comes into play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted December 15, 2014 I think that is where the "after enlightenment" comes into play. I like the way you smile, Dragon! The process of enlightenment is a gradual process. Followers of Rinzai Zen might not agree with this, but I think that most Soto Zen practitioners as well as Daoists (Daoist Alchemists) generally would agree with me on this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 15, 2014 (edited) I like the way you smile, Dragon! The process of enlightenment is a gradual process. Followers of Rinzai Zen might not agree with this, but I think that most Soto Zen practitioners as well as Daoists (Daoist Alchemists) generally would agree with me on this. Have you ever heard of a instant enlightenment. It all depends what one was after in the enlightenment. Do you see light in the word enlightenment. Thus it could be happened at the speed of light if something just darn on you. It may take a long time to get there but enlightenment only happens at one instance. Edited: ooops....I forgot to smile. Edited December 15, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted December 15, 2014 Have you ever heard of a instant enlightenment. It all depends what one was after in the enlightenment. Do you see light in the word enlightenment. Thus it could be happened at the speed of light if something just darn on you. It may take a long time to get there but enlightenment only happens at one instance. Edited: ooops....I forgot to smile. Yes, or within the time-frame of a few days at their peak. I literally experienced intense sensations of light and glamour a few times while feeling somehow ecstatic. As you say, there are long periods of a more or less steady process preceding those moments of Alchemical breakthroughs. So I would say that both Rinzai Zen und Soto Zen/Dao are partially right. However, it should be remembered that Rinzai practitioner agonizer over paradox, "unsolvable" koans for months, and be released by the sudden flash-lights of intuitive comprehension in-between. The way to the "highest" illumination is paved with a series of lesser experiences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 15, 2014 I'm Toast ... does that count? ... only one letter away. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Yes, or within the time-frame of a few days at their peak. I literally experienced intense sensations of light and glamour a few times while feeling somehow ecstatic. As you say, there are long periods of a more or less steady process preceding those moments of Alchemical breakthroughs. So I would say that both Rinzai Zen und Soto Zen/Dao are partially right. However, it should be remembered that Rinzai practitioner agonizer over paradox, "unsolvable" koans for months, and be released by the sudden flash-lights of intuitive comprehension in-between. The way to the "highest" illumination is paved with a series of lesser experiences. To me, Zen(禪) is more pertained toward the Buddhist sector. The kind of enlightenment that I had in mind is something just come in mind and realized what it is all the sudden. E.g. What do I need to do if I want to be a Taoist....??? Ah...I have just realized that cultivation is the key for that and never had thought of it. Therefore, I could say, my life have changed because I have become enlightened at that instance. Edited December 16, 2014 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 16, 2014 So the tao is like....literature? Tao is not but the Tao Te Ching is. The scholars treated the TTC as a masterpiece of literature. It is because the writing style and the philosophy are so unique. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted December 16, 2014 Tao is not but the Tao Te Ching is. The scholars treated the TTC as a masterpiece of literature. It is because the writing style and the philosophy are so unique. Can modern Chinese (other than specialists) still read the TTC in its original version? Or was it translated into modern language? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 16, 2014 I'm Toast ... does that count? ... only one letter away. Yes, that counts. Especially your first word: "I am". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Can modern Chinese (other than specialists) still read the TTC in its original version? Or was it translated into modern language? Michael.... The original version is just like a foreign language to the modern Chinese. Yes, it was translated into modern language. Unfortunately, most of the modern Chinese have never heard of the TTC nor know what it is all about. Sometimes, they laughed as Lao Zi was saying: "Those who do not know Tao give it a big laugh." Edited December 16, 2014 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted December 17, 2014 Michael.... The original version is just like a foreign language to the modern Chinese. Yes, it was translated into modern language. Unfortunately, most of the modern Chinese have never heard of the TTC nor know what it is all about. Sometimes, they laughed as Lao Zi was saying: "Those who do not know Tao give it a big laugh." Wow. Like we have "old english" that I can barely read (looks more like German) This thread has changed my perspective a lot ready. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
