BJJ, Shing Yi or Aikido?

[Cameron]

I need to add some martial arts training back in. Don't know which one to go with. Maybe doing some training will help me sleep..or atleast I can start a night dojo for people who start Kunlun. Could call it Cam's Kunlun night school for people on ancient Tao transmission who don't want to just post on the internet or hang out at Denny's.

 

Or whatever...so which one you think is best? Don't say Shing Yi just because you think Chinese are better.

 

ummm...the pole thingie isn't coming up..WTF?

Edited September 28, 2007 by Cameron

[Bum Grasshopper]

If you are looking for self confidence in being able to defend yourself I recommend BJJ. Any martial art that practices for real and does not hold back or "out law" anything is the way to go. I have trained with Royce Gracie and know that anything goes with the true no holds barred fights that he specializes in.

 

Also any full contact kick boxing or karate to supplement is great.

 

Fitness and flexibility comes with any martial art

[Bak Mei]

I second what grass wrote.. BJJ, or anything full contact where you can feel what it is like real life.. no tai chi push hands or wing chun bs please; they are just games and not practical for street fight.

[Cameron]

Royce Gracies student opened a dojo here BTW.

 

http://mmalab.com/

 

But I will probably end up doing Aikido or Shing Yi since I want an art I can practice my whole life.

 

BJJ is good..I know a little already..but it's more something you do when you are young and want to choke people out.

 

I am more in love bunny vibe now so need a little more peacful art.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Cameron

[Mal]

[thaddeus]

I have some new thoughts on this because I'm going through the same thing right now. Overall, I would have picked bjj because it would complement my taichi training. But the problem in new york is that they all seemed to have banded together and require lengthy committments. Gone are the pay as you go options. Renzo's school is hands down the best, but the running the business part ruined it for me. Aikido is also cool, however, the dojo politics and self delusion starts to really grate on you. Some of these non-competitive hierarchical martial art dojos are just forums for certain types of people to play out their fantasies..and it's annoying to see it and experience it. Another thing that killed bjj for me are the grueling pre-training workouts. Most of my injuries in the past were from the non-professional 'warmups' after a 10-12 hour office job. Authentic Shing Yi would be pretty cool, but where are you going to find a real teacher of it, anyone who runs a public school is probably not any good. Despite my utterances in the past, I find myself drawn to Ichuan, but I don't believe there is anyone out there who can 'teach' it. Tuky Lam pretty much says everything there is to say about the training, you just have to do it and learn on your own like the founder did.

That's just a dump of my thought process right now. I'm looking for something too. I think bjj would give the best workout for health, fitness and overall strength. But findind a school that works for you..hmm...

T

[Cameron]

Are you sure Renzo is still the best?

 

I hear Marcello Garcia is pretty ridiculously bad ass.

 

love dolphin

[thaddeus]

Are you sure Renzo is still the best?

I hear Marcello Garcia is pretty ridiculously bad ass.

I'm not sure about Marcello's school, i'll google it. I meant Renzo's school is the best, it's the biggest and has convenient hours and a good stable location.

T

[Bak Mei]

 

Anything done "well" / "properly" is effective.

 

 

 

That is not correct and a popular misconception. Dealing with martial arts and especially the "mysterious" chinese martial arts in general, there are specific systems that are effective for fighting and mortal combat, others effective for stretching, and others for their esthetic qualities but not all that effective when it comes to defending yourself (wushu). You dont know how many people Ive met that think tai chi will get them out of a street fight with a 100 kilo angry drunk punk rocker... Please, dont be delusional. Want to know why the tiny old chinese man can dominate the much bigger, younger student with push hands? because its a game, its not actual full contact sparring bareknuckle or whatever...put that same tai chi master in the ring with a thai boxer that kicks bamboo all day, conditioning his shins and arms for hours per day, and what is the outcome???

 

So back to what you said "Anything done "well" / "properly" is effective. " Yes, if you train to be a figher and hurt people than chances are, if you have a good teacher, and a good system, do bare knuckle sparring, you will know how to fight... However, if you just train forms without conditioning, sparring etc, you will know just forms. If you do tai chi, you will know tai chi, if you do bagua you will know bagua, if you do point contact karate sparring, you will know just that, point contact karate, not nec how to fight in a bar ...

 

It is also true that every real fighting system has its limitations. For example, grappling and throwing arts like aik, judo, BJJ only work if a take down is made and it goes to the ground. What if the opponent cant be taken down? same goes for kick boxing, boxers, kung fu guys etc. strikers that prefer stand up... if they get taken down, they are disadvantaged.. This is why now the best professional fighters train multiple styles for take down, striking , submissions to be a well rounded fighter. The most realistic being Pride, UFC, and other cage fighting.

 

Also, to help with Cam's question, What do you want to get out of your training? you need to ask yourself and create the intent and find a system that will complement that. You posted you are not looking to become a street fighter, lol..so what are you looking for? Do you want conditioning and endurance? To be more limber? Do you want to do pretty forms with butterfly kicks? If you are interested in BJJ are you prepared to roll around on the mat with some hairy sweaty dudes every night? lol

 

These are the questions you need to address.

 

cheers

[Spectrum]

If you want an art you can study all your life, I recommend finding a good traditional Chinese martial art. A lot to learn that will keep you occupied for years.

 

Yeah I gotta say I grew out of the roll around on the ground phase here. It's only one range really, grappling is. After you figure out how many different paths and routes there really are about the body... how about flying over the topology instead of hugging it? Grappling is ok for a tussle if someone succeeds in taking you down, but the concrete and walls are hard. It is a good whole body workout. It's good to learn how to feel comfortable in a variety of positional situations, allowing you to make a map in your instincts of what positions are bad and what is good. You want to develop "peace of mind" while moving, grappling is good for that, but so is punching, ie: peace of mind while slipping incoming projectiles.

 

For the long haul it is good to be versed in all ranges and types, but to look for common threads of truth.

 

Ultimately you will be like the people you train with. Examine them closely. Do you want to drive smooth and fluid, or 4x4 w/ a lot of stop and goes? There is a spectrum to observe. One body. Many arts. One Art.

 

Spectrum

[gendao]

.. no tai chi push hands or wing chun bs please; they are just games and not practical for street fight.

The CIMAs essentially teach how to increase power & structure through energy usage and skeletal alignment. These are advanced refinements that require very mindful training - not just mindless repetition or collecting techniques.

 

I've dabbled in many external martial arts...but none of them come close to teaching these deeper core principles. It's just not in their curriculums.

 

With that said, you will get far faster, concrete results in "reality-based" MMA-style systems. The CIMAs have a far steeper, stepped learning curve that requires "getting" a lot of subtle things...or not.

 

As far as CIMAs though, you might also consider Baguazhang & Yiquan. Yiquan is supposed to be the core training for Taijiquan - composed primarily of zhan zhuang.

 

In fact, it sounds suspiciously like:

The Mao Shan 5 elements are like zhang zhaung. There is a standing posture for each of the five elements which are wood - liver, fire - heart, earth - spleen, metal - lungs, water - kidney and they are practiced in that order.

I don't know exactly what the arm positions are for Mao Shan 5 - but in Yiquan - you have ~8 (I think) arm positions where they are held at various angles in front of your body.

 

I think a lot of life is about proper positioning. You position yourself in the right way at the right time in the right place - and let the universe do the rest. It's like catching a wave. Or assuming the Kunlun meditation posture and then letting go. Or in BJJ, you always seek superior positioning - which makes the finishing move a formality after that.

Edited September 28, 2007 by vortex

[Bum Grasshopper]

I am more in love bunny vibe now so need a little more peaceful art.

 

 

Depends on what you are looking for. I too have given up BJJ because it is too physical demanding. But Helio Gracie is like 90 and still trains. Just depends on how much devotion you want to put into it.

 

" Aikido is also cool, however, the dojo politics and self delusion starts to really grate on you. Some of these non-competitive hierarchical martial art dojos are just forums for certain types of people to play out their fantasies..and it's annoying to see it and experience it."

 

I took a traditional JJ art where the first week was spent on all the etiquette involves in ancent Japanese affairs. Each class was an exercise in kissing the instructor's (shihan) ass. Little was learned in 3 years except learning how to fall safely when he threw your butt to the ground.

 

I now take Tai Chi Chuan and will trust the Tao on how to react if I get attacked. I would love to take other internal arts, but none are available in my area.

[Cameron]

I have some new thoughts on this because I'm going through the same thing right now. Overall, I would have picked bjj because it would complement my taichi training. But the problem in new york is that they all seemed to have banded together and require lengthy committments. Gone are the pay as you go options. Renzo's school is hands down the best, but the running the business part ruined it for me. Aikido is also cool, however, the dojo politics and self delusion starts to really grate on you. Some of these non-competitive hierarchical martial art dojos are just forums for certain types of people to play out their fantasies..and it's annoying to see it and experience it. Another thing that killed bjj for me are the grueling pre-training workouts. Most of my injuries in the past were from the non-professional 'warmups' after a 10-12 hour office job. Authentic Shing Yi would be pretty cool, but where are you going to find a real teacher of it, anyone who runs a public school is probably not any good. Despite my utterances in the past, I find myself drawn to Ichuan, but I don't believe there is anyone out there who can 'teach' it. Tuky Lam pretty much says everything there is to say about the training, you just have to do it and learn on your own like the founder did.

That's just a dump of my thought process right now. I'm looking for something too. I think bjj would give the best workout for health, fitness and overall strength. But findind a school that works for you..hmm...

T

 

 

No I have access to both high,high level Shingyi and Aikido. Like top teachers. Both right here.

 

Maybe I should just do all 3. That actually might work if I am permently going to be down to 2 hrs sleep a night from Kunlun. I would have quite a bit of extra time to train.

 

Will see. Maybe wait until after SF semianr and other stuff to see whats up.

 

post edit for languange content .A friend of mine said I should be more aware of space and he is right. Will stop cursing and be more awaaaaaaaare....like people in SF

Edited September 28, 2007 by Cameron

[Spectrum]

Anything you do every day will yield results.

 

Learn BJJ to learn how to move your hips on the ground and how to get back to a standing position. They free roll to so you can feel how it is to move WITH a person who is trying to move AGAINST you. This is key. Try to find a gym, no mater where you look, where you see the upper ranks moving "WITH" resisting "opponents"... it will appear that they expend little effort to overcome strength. You can spot this easily in bjj clubs, it's more difficult in standup clubs, but not impossible.

 

You have to understand the playfield that people test themselves on. Push hands is useless to people who want to feel a tap. The don't understand the inquiry process involved in the game. It's better for them to play "tap & learn"

 

Avoid clubs where there is an obvious pecking order or a lot of people out w/ injuries all the time, etc.

 

My .03

 

Spectrum

[thaddeus]

No I have access to both high,high level Shingyi and Aikido. Like top teachers. Both right here.

 

Maybe I should just do all 3. That actually might work if I am permently going to be down to 2 hrs sleep a night from Kunlun. I would have quite a bit of extra time to train.

That would be cool..why not..

Right now i'm in a negative frame of mind regarding 'joining' schools--like what spectrum and grasshopper say about the pecking order stuff.

T

[Lozen]

BJJ!!

 

I just started training in it again...well, actually in JJ because it's no gi... fun!!

[Cameron]

Thank you all for your fair and balanced views.

 

Will do the SF workshop get more feedback from Sifu and then try to make a fair and balanced decision about this.

 

*turns on Fox news*

[Spectrum]

Aikido and BJJ would be an interestingly dynamic duo...

[Smile]

Listen to your intuition/feeling.

[thelerner]

I generally feel the teacher is more important then the art. Beyond the teaching the presence and wah of a great teacher can be profoundly life changing.

 

So watch a few classes, talk to a few students.

 

 

Michael

[Oolong Rabbit]

I need to add some martial arts training back in. Don't know which one to go with. Maybe doing some training will help me sleep..or atleast I can start a night dojo for people who start Kunlun. Could call it Cam's Kunlun night school for people on ancient Tao transmission who don't want to just post on the internet or hang out at Denny's.

 

Or whatever...so which one you think is best? Don't say Shing Yi just because you think Chinese are better.

 

ummm...the pole thingie isn't coming up..WTF?

 

I would defintely opt for Xing Yi. I am currently practicing Tai Chi and plan to study Lok Hup Ba Fa (Liu He Ba Fa) and Xing Yi. I have previously studied Judo, JuJitsu, Aikido and some hybrid kick boxing style. Xing Yi and Aikido are more suited for chi cultivation and circulation. Aikido teaches many of the same joint lock applications as JJ, but also has a spiritual aspect. BJJ is great if you are primarily concerned with fighting. Like the other posters, I also got tired of the rigid formality of the Japanese arts. A lot of it is just tradition for tradition's sake.

[Cameron]

Fair and balanced views.

 

Will wait until after SF and then figure out the martial arts situation.

 

Dolphin Hawk

[Cameron]

I think maybe the Shing Yi(And Bagua) will be the way to go.

 

BJJ you deal with too many kamikazes on the mat who want to go to war with you.

 

Aikido is great but you have to deal with the whole serious, overly formal etiquette(no disrespect..I love all my Aikido teachers).

 

My Shing Yi teacher is really light hearted, always cracking jokes etc. Not to mention on the qi level would probably be mos tin harmony with the Kunlun.

 

Will still wait to decide foe sure but porbably go abck to the Shing Yi.

 

Of course..Smile already told me that already bunch of times.

[Smile]

You have to admit if you follow my advice you save yourself a lot of time. But at the present case... that means now and here (as the energies change daily and so is the fortune), I have no advice for you accept following your inner drive.

[portcraig]

I asked Max about martial arts and he suggested that I study Bagua because it is a circular energy which would be compatible with Kunlun since it is also a circular energy. Craig