Freemasons, Success, Spirituality

[DreamBliss]

I have been watching a series called, "America Unearthed" and it seems very clear to me that every single influential or successful person involved with the early years of America was a Freemason. Furthermore I think the Freemason's have roots in spirituality. I suspect they are teaching their members, or rather, were teaching their members, certain things that helped them to become influential and successful.

I am not so sure the Freemasons are doing this now. Is Obama a Freemason? Donald Trump? Bill Gates? Who was the last president, church leader or one of Amierca's Top 10 wealthiest people to be a Freemason? I of course can not be sure and do not know, but I would suspect that there hasn't been a Freemason in America's inner elite circles since the 80's or maybe even the 70's. if you are a Freemason and are allowed to do so, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I just wonder what the Freemasons are teaching their members? It seems unikely that these people were already influential or successful before they become Freemasons. It seems more likely that this happened after they were initiated. They became the leadsers and forefathers of America. But after they became Freemasons, not before. It may even be likely some of these members were initiated by their parents when they were still children, although I do not know the rules around this.

So it seems likely that Freemason initiates used to be given information, maybe they even still are, that boosted them ahead of others in some way. It would be before the whole , "Law of Attraction" teahcings. Before the, "New Thought" and "Christian Science" movements. The only book that I can think would have the necessary teachings would be the Kybalion, but I believe there would have to be more to it than that.

So what do you think? Is there some secret training on some ancient text, or maybe even an ancient text copied and distributed to the various Freemason houses? If you are a Freemason, are you allowed to comment on this? Is what appears to be a decline in, "Secret Societies" due to these "New Thought" and LoA teachings becoming more available? Maybe back in the day people depeneded on Freemasonary to make them influential or successful, but today anyone can stumble on the right texts and teachings and make themselves successful. Do you think that is what's going on?

The reason I bring this up, odd as it is for this forums, is that I wonder sometimes if I should join such a society, provided I could get myself invited. Maybe whatever I learn there would give me the kick in the pants I need to become influential or successful myself. Just toying with the idea, asking questions, wondering. Curious as to the truth, if it can be pried out.

Edited December 22, 2014 by DreamBliss

[vonkrankenhaus]

Freemasonry has a lot more to do with how to organize a municipality secretly so that, to the public, it looks like it "just happened" in the same way, everywhere. It has parallels with the elite cult of Sol Invictus during the Roman Empire, a cult of people drawn from elite circles and families (unifying) in the "human control" fields of finance, military, government, etc, while the public was given literalist Christianity to follow, by force.

 

The "esoteric" slant offered is bait to gain and keep members. It is "bull-shit".

 

Same shit, different empire.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Brian]

Last Mason President was Gerald Ford.

 

Many modern Masons choose not to publicize their membership as it tends to draw negative attention to them. Most do wear a Masonic ring, though.

 

Some names might surprise you -- like Richard Pryor, for instance...

[Aetherous]

I say this as a non-Freemason...the best way to ever really know is to actually contact the lodge near you and ask about maybe joining. You should do it for the right reasons...they say that they make good men better through a moral system that's presented in symbols. The purpose of morality is to lead a better life. So if that's the main thing you aspire to, then it'd be good to get in touch with them directly. They don't invite...you have to ask to join, or "petition" in.

As for success...if you want something enough, you'll do what it takes to get it. If you don't want it enough, you won't do what it takes...simple as that. If you want two conflicting things, for instance lets say free time to lounge around, and financial success, you'll have to make a clear choice which one you want more. Then put all your effort toward doing what it takes, realistically, to make things happen in a direct way. That's how people actually achieve success. Not by joining a brotherhood...as you can see with who is actually wealthy these days and who isn't (mostly non-members; just normal people).

"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity." - Seneca. Be prepared by working hard and smart, and with persistence...doing everything you can on your end...and then you can actually be "lucky" and successful when the right time comes.

[Nungali]

 

Many modern Masons choose not to publicize their membership as it tends to draw negative attention to them.

 

 

Who can blame them when opinions like this are around ;

 

 

The "esoteric" slant offered is bait to gain and keep members. It is "bull-shit".

 

Same shit, different empire.Freemasonry has a lot more to do with how to organize a municipality secretly so that, to the public, it looks like it "just happened" in the same way, everywhere. It has parallels with the elite cult of Sol Invictus during the Roman Empire, a cult of people drawn from elite circles and families (unifying) in the "human control" fields of finance, military, government, etc, while the public was given literalist Christianity to follow, by force.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Nungali]

I have been watching a series called, "America Unearthed" and it seems very clear to me that every single influential or successful person involved with the early years of America was a Freemason. Furthermore I think the Freemason's have roots in spirituality. I suspect they are teaching their members, or rather, were teaching their members, certain things that helped them to become influential and successful.

 

That is the whole gist of it .... but not as you might imagine, not how to " become influential and successful ". But more ; how should an 'upright' man conduct himself, improve himself and contribute to society.

 

On two levels ; the personal, and that might make a person successful and on the level of the organisation striving to improve society; by fraternal brotherhood, distribution of charity, etc ... but also, historically by the overthrow of Church and ruling families and attempting to put power in the hands of the people.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not so sure the Freemasons are doing this now. Is Obama a Freemason? Donald Trump? Bill Gates? Who was the last president, church leader or one of Amierca's Top 10 wealthiest people to be a Freemason? I of course can not be sure and do not know, but I would suspect that there hasn't been a Freemason in America's inner elite circles since the 80's or maybe even the 70's. if you are a Freemason and are allowed to do so, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

Nowadays in the wonderful world of materialism and economic rationalism, it is irrelevant, you just need money, power, greed, ruthlessness; no need to be 'upright' or exhibit an honest code of behaviour .... screw you buddy !

 

 

 

I just wonder what the Freemasons are teaching their members?

 

The rites are available on line now, you can read the teachings for your self (but they dont work the same way as having the teachings demonstrated in the context of dramatic ritual if one just reads them ).

 

It seems unikely that these people were already influential or successful before they become Freemasons. It seems more likely that this happened after they were initiated.

 

Quiet possibly, as initiation is (or should be ) about realising one's potential and place, who one is and what one has to offer, drawing the best out of one's self and the understanding of what benefits being involved in a society can give one, and in turn, what one must give (and give up) to gain that benefit .

 

They became the leadsers and forefathers of America. But after they became Freemasons, not before. It may even be likely some of these members were initiated by their parents when they were still children, although I do not know the rules around this.

 

In a way perhaps , as the pattern of Masonry is based on the old pre industrial revolution 'working relationship' between a father and son;

 

Entered Apprentice ( 1st degree) - the son starts to learn the father's ( Master's) trade.

 

Fellow Craft (2nd Degree) - the son has learnt to be craftsman and can work and contribute.

 

Journeyman - the son can travel the 'world', get experience from other cultures outside of his own home turf, he has a trade to support him as he goes.

 

Master Mason (3rd degree ) - Now, with all his experience and application of it, he is 'karmically bound' to take on his apprentice (or have a son) and pass on the knowledge.

 

Also the 3 degrees relate to birth, life and death - something we could all do with some teachings about.

 

After one has thid down, one has a basis to begin the higher mysteries and initiations ( from the Blue Lodge into the Red Lodge) via the 'Royal Arch'.

 

 

 

So it seems likely that Freemason initiates used to be given information, maybe they even still are, that boosted them ahead of others in some way.

 

Its a bit the opposite ... ALL cultures need to have systems of initiations and rites of passage ... it is an intrinsic part of individuation. Cultures that loose these rapidly decline and become rather shitful .... just like ours. The first series of initiations are to make a 'natural' person (or a 'wild person') into a 'cultural person' . Without that we can easily devolve into a bunch of beasts tearing at each other.

 

So yes, an initiate should be a different kind of person ... but not in the way you seem to think.

 

It would be before the whole , "Law of Attraction" teahcings. Before the, "New Thought" and "Christian Science" movements. The only book that I can think would have the necessary teachings would be the Kybalion, but I believe there would have to be more to it than that.

 

There is ..... the LoA and much of such New Age stuff is watered down, mixed up and confused, easy in 3 steps, pay the money for quick results, wishful thinking that doesnt work and isnt logical, cant logically debate their own systems validity, and come up with a whole load of crap as they cant reasonably defend themselves against criticism without red herrings platitudes and quoting nonsense, etc etc .

 

 

 

 

So what do you think? Is there some secret training on some ancient text, or maybe even an ancient text copied and distributed to the various Freemason houses? If you are a Freemason, are you allowed to comment on this?

 

Its in the rituals and papers on various subjects Freemasons write ... the first, as I said, is online, the 2nd. AQC is prob the best source : http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/

 

Is what appears to be a decline in, "Secret Societies" due to these "New Thought" and LoA teachings becoming more available?

 

Sort of ... I would say it is more the dumbing down of the general populace ... also dynamics in people consciousness due to certain experiences throughout last century- actions and reactions to some pretty big issues ( WWII, the rise and defeat of Nazism, the cold way, potential nuclear and environmental destruction, economic rationalism ... it's a big picture, with lots of factors that inter relate and play off each other.

 

Maybe back in the day people depeneded on Freemasonary to make them influential or successful, but today anyone can stumble on the right texts and teachings and make themselves successful. Do you think that is what's going on?

 

No.

 

 

 

The reason I bring this up, odd as it is for this forums, is that I wonder sometimes if I should join such a society, provided I could get myself invited. Maybe whatever I learn there would give me the kick in the pants I need to become influential or successful myself.

 

Well .... it might

 

[ The all start bringing forward their due in the form of bags of grain, produce, goats , the Lodge is in chaos;

 

One; "Master, let me comment on your beautiful and dignified hat ! " - He pulls it down so it breaks and the rim is about his neck. Another kicks him in the pants. As he is about to sit on the throne another pulls the chair from under him ....

 

- from an old 'Past Masters' rite - or ' OH ! So you want to be a Lodge Master do you ! ? " ]

 

Just toying with the idea, asking questions, wondering. Curious as to the truth, if it can be pried out.

 

Pried up ... more accurately (read up on the first 3 degrees, or take them ... then start digging ! )

 

[ I am not of the opinion that Masonry holds the initiatory secrets required for the modern man .... it is quite dated now ... but it holds the pattern, and the experience, there are other mystery schools around that validly do ... and many that are fakes or money making ripp-offs.]

[jyakulis]

I'm pretty sure they use ceremonial magick and rituals. A lot of big corporations logos are actually sigil magick. They are definitely schooling them in some sort of spiritual art to get their desires.

 

Anyway, I don't trust anything done in secret.

[Brian]

 

That is the whole gist of it .... but not as you might imagine, not how to " become influential and successful ". But more ; how should an 'upright' man conduct himself, improve himself and contribute to society.

 

On two levels ; the personal, and that might make a person successful and on the level of the organisation striving to improve society; by fraternal brotherhood, distribution of charity, etc ... but also, historically by the overthrow of Church and ruling families and attempting to put power in the hands of the people.

 

 

 

 

Nowadays in the wonderful world of materialism and economic rationalism, it is irrelevant, you just need money, power, greed, ruthlessness; no need to be 'upright' or exhibit an honest code of behaviour .... screw you buddy !

 

 

The rites are available on line now, you can read the teachings for your self (but they dont work the same way as having the teachings demonstrated in the context of dramatic ritual if one just reads them ).

 

 

Quiet possibly, as initiation is (or should be ) about realising one's potential and place, who one is and what one has to offer, drawing the best out of one's self and the understanding of what benefits being involved in a society can give one, and in turn, what one must give (and give up) to gain that benefit .

 

 

In a way perhaps , as the pattern of Masonry is based on the old pre industrial revolution 'working relationship' between a father and son;

 

Entered Apprentice ( 1st degree) - the son starts to learn the father's ( Master's) trade.

 

Fellow Craft (2nd Degree) - the son has learnt to be craftsman and can work and contribute.

 

Journeyman - the son can travel the 'world', get experience from other cultures outside of his own home turf, he has a trade to support him as he goes.

 

Master Mason (3rd degree ) - Now, with all his experience and application of it, he is 'karmically bound' to take on his apprentice (or have a son) and pass on the knowledge.

 

Also the 3 degrees relate to birth, life and death - something we could all do with some teachings about.

 

After one has thid down, one has a basis to begin the higher mysteries and initiations ( from the Blue Lodge into the Red Lodge) via the 'Royal Arch'.

 

 

Its a bit the opposite ... ALL cultures need to have systems of initiations and rites of passage ... it is an intrinsic part of individuation. Cultures that loose these rapidly decline and become rather shitful .... just like ours. The first series of initiations are to make a 'natural' person (or a 'wild person') into a 'cultural person' . Without that we can easily devolve into a bunch of beasts tearing at each other.

 

So yes, an initiate should be a different kind of person ... but not in the way you seem to think.

 

 

There is ..... the LoA and much of such New Age stuff is watered down, mixed up and confused, easy in 3 steps, pay the money for quick results, wishful thinking that doesnt work and isnt logical, cant logically debate their own systems validity, and come up with a whole load of crap as they cant reasonably defend themselves against criticism without red herrings platitudes and quoting nonsense, etc etc .

 

 

 

Its in the rituals and papers on various subjects Freemasons write ... the first, as I said, is online, the 2nd. AQC is prob the best source : http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/

 

 

Sort of ... I would say it is more the dumbing down of the general populace ... also dynamics in people consciousness due to certain experiences throughout last century- actions and reactions to some pretty big issues ( WWII, the rise and defeat of Nazism, the cold way, potential nuclear and environmental destruction, economic rationalism ... it's a big picture, with lots of factors that inter relate and play off each other.

 

 

No.

 

 

Well .... it might

 

[ The all start bringing forward their due in the form of bags of grain, produce, goats , the Lodge is in chaos;

 

One; "Master, let me comment on your beautiful and dignified hat ! " - He pulls it down so it breaks and the rim is about his neck. Another kicks him in the pants. As he is about to sit on the throne another pulls the chair from under him ....

 

- from an old 'Past Masters' rite - or ' OH ! So you want to be a Lodge Master do you ! ? " ]

 

 

Pried up ... more accurately (read up on the first 3 degrees, or take them ... then start digging ! )

 

[ I am not of the opinion that Masonry holds the initiatory secrets required for the modern man .... it is quite dated now ... but it holds the pattern, and the experience, there are other mystery schools around that validly do ... and many that are fakes or money making ripp-offs.]

Nice post, Nungali.

[Nungali]

I'm pretty sure they use ceremonial magick and rituals.

 

Well, of course they do ! It is a ritual of initiation with rites of passage via use of dramatic ritual ... or 'passion play' (church used to be like that in the old days, they would enact stories from the bible as part of the celebrations, not just the 'usual' passion play of the crucifiction, One I like is the story of Noah's Ark , performed by the shipwrights guild (each guild had responsibility for enacting certain stories) ... it is quite humorous, Noah's wife ... ! ... ;

 

http://www.amazon.com/Everyman-Medieval-Miracle-Plays-Cawley/dp/046087280X

 

The difference is ; in a passion play type of dramatic ritual, you are witnessing the story, and you may know the plot and outcome. In an initiation ceremony type of dramatic ritual, you play the central role of the person, 'hero' or god whose story it is, and you may not know the plot or outcome ... and how your role is to be acted ( you either have a helper or you just have to get it right or fail ) .

Edited December 23, 2014 by Nungali

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re: "Nungali"

-----

"Who can blame them when opinions like this are around ;"

 

vonkrankenhaus, on 22 Dec 2014 - 14:22, said:

The "esoteric" slant offered is bait to gain and keep members. It is "bull-shit".

 

Same shit, different empire.Freemasonry has a lot more to do with how to organize a municipality secretly so that, to the public, it looks like it "just happened" in the same way, everywhere. It has parallels with the elite cult of Sol Invictus during the Roman Empire, a cult of people drawn from elite circles and families (unifying) in the "human control" fields of finance, military, government, etc, while the public was given literalist Christianity to follow, by force.

-VonKrankenhaus

-----

I would just like to respond to this and point out that I don't really have an opinion about it, and what I wrote was not in any way an opinion of mine, or of anyone else I know. Also, my post as quoted was re-arranged.

 

If someone here has more actual firsthand experience with Masonry, and individuals and groups of Masons, than I do, or "any", and finds the rituals and oaths to be truly spiritually-oriented and truly based in "esoteric" practices that produce any sort of developmental progress in spiritual understanding, then they could certainly describe these if they'd like, and they would be secure in the knowledge of their own experience.

 

But I know it won't be Masons doing this, and, obviously, nobody who has posted on this subject in this thread is a Freemason.

 

I would like to add that I have had many friends who are Masons, going back several decades, and they are some of the best people I know. My post was a description based on my personal life experiences, combined with studies in history, and, please do not think that I am antagonistic at all in my description. I will admit to using briefly a "modern scientific term" for the rituals themselves in the context of something like "human spiritual endeavors", but my doing so was motivated in accuracy in reporting, not the projection of attitude or opinion.

 

Please go as far into this topic as you like, or can, and see if what I wrote is incorrect.

 

Please consider that relying on trying to interpret Masonic rituals as described in books or online from "outside" would maybe not be sufficient to address fully what I wrote, and certainly not sufficient to imply that writing like that is in any way a true reason for secrecy in Freemasonry.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[SecretGrotto]

I see Freemasonry as a social network to cultivate grand virtue by enabling "leaders" in different fields to join forces.

 

However, from what I've seen in my local Lodges, the actual experience involves a lot of boring formalities and rituals, a true snoozefest.

 

Freemasonry is not what it used to be back in the day with St. Germain and other spiritual alchemists keeping things real and exciting.

[GrandmasterP]

I'm not a Freemason but Mrs GMP and I have been invited to a few Lodge Charity Dinners.

They say that they are not a secret society but a society with secrets.

The Lodge rooms at Leicester Masonic HQ are pretty impressive plus they have a museum of Masonry and are keen to invite interested people in.

In the main the members we met were middle aged or older, mostly businessmen types, some retired policemen, no 'blue collar' job type chaps.

To me it seemed more of a social and networking type setup than anything particularly esoteric.

Edited December 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Brian]

Masons promise to not disclose the information and rituals with which they are entrusted at each degree and that includes not "myth-busting" on Internet forums. Not all Masons choose to volunteer their membership, either.

 

Don't be expecting any Bums to step forward but don't assume that necessarily means there are no Masons among us.

[Nungali]

Re: "Nungali"

-----

"Who can blame them when opinions like this are around ;"

 

vonkrankenhaus, on 22 Dec 2014 - 14:22, said:

I would just like to respond to this and point out that I don't really have an opinion about it, and what I wrote was not in any way an opinion of mine, or of anyone else I know. Also, my post as quoted was re-arranged.

 

Well then ... where did the post come from ? Did you make it up as a fantasy or fiction? Bait ? Something else ? Observations of others that are not their opinion ?

 

 

 

 

If someone here has more actual firsthand experience with Masonry, and individuals and groups of Masons, than I do, or "any", and finds the rituals and oaths to be truly spiritually-oriented and truly based in "esoteric" practices that produce any sort of developmental progress in spiritual understanding, then they could certainly describe these if they'd like, and they would be secure in the knowledge of their own experience.

 

I dont know if my experience is more than yours, but I am only speaking from my own experience.

 

I find them spiritually oriented in that , any path of aspiring to better one's qualities and interact better socially are 'spiritual' .

 

[ from a conversation with a Knight Templar Mason:

 

Me: " So ... esoteric ... or just fraternal ?

 

Him ; " My best answer is: Yes!

 

For those that want Fraternal relations, it's a great organization, and that's what most seek and find. For the few that want to look into the who's and how's and why's, it can be very esoteric. All Freemasons know that the trowel is used to spread mortar to make walls and great constructs - and that speculative masonry now uses it to symbolize "spreading the love of human kindness and brotherly love." Yeah, gaggingly sweet, but WHY? We use symbols to constantly remind us of what we SHOULD be doing - just like a 12-step program uses visual cues like pictures on your bathroom mirror and refrigerator door to remind the alcoholic of the goal. Keep an even keel and be an "upright" man like the level reminds us - share the love (and the wealth). As you start digging, the symbolism takes on more and more meanings. "

 

There are whole schools of an esoteric nature that came out of Masonry ... as well as the better known one's like the Golden Dawn. This might help explain it :

 

 

There are quite a few on a similar theme.

 

 

But I know it won't be Masons doing this, and, obviously, nobody who has posted on this subject in this thread is a Freemason.

 

I would like to add that I have had many friends who are Masons, going back several decades, and they are some of the best people I know. My post was a description based on my personal life experiences, combined with studies in history, and, please do not think that I am antagonistic at all in my description. I will admit to using briefly a "modern scientific term" for the rituals themselves in the context of something like "human spiritual endeavors", but my doing so was motivated in accuracy in reporting, not the projection of attitude or opinion.

 

I am not surprised to hear this as there are good an bad ( or perhaps suitable and unsuitable) Lodges, clubs, cabals, groups, etc all over the place. As I said earlier , IMO Freemasonry may not hold the place it used to as a relevant mainstream initiation system for western society. perhaps the reason for declining numbers ? I had a friend who joined one and it was a bit of a joke, a few feeble old guys, enacting the shell of an old ceremony ( Blue Lodge) . I also know and converse with some that are far out, into ritual magic and everything else from designing lightweight solar racing cars, through to weird 18thC based religious ideals and 'occult gentlemanly practice' ... and western tantra ( they are all in Red Lodges and /or associated spin-offs).

 

I am sure the local lodge here ( in a rural small town) isnt that esoteric, most of them just want to know how to be basically good and fair, get on, and find some meaning in life (and 3 of them are old near retired heavy machine operators and another a retired butcher ... not exactly the top of the pyramid . )

 

I think it has or had the potential to supply what one wants to get out of it, depending on how far one wanted to progress. If one's initiators or officers have a mundane interpretation then that is what you will get .... its up to the candidate to actually dig the stuff up.

 

If a Mason does not want to do that and are content to sit on the bench until a better position is offered up, then fine ... go ahead, have a seat ... that is actually a big part of things ! Or used to be .

 

Please go as far into this topic as you like, or can, and see if what I wrote is incorrect.

 

It may not be incorrect from your view and experience, but it doesnt represent Masonry as a whole.

 

Please consider that relying on trying to interpret Masonic rituals as described in books or online from "outside" would maybe not be sufficient to address fully what I wrote,

 

I have personal experience both from the armchair and in the field - both from the position of an aspiring initiate and fascinated anthropologist, in a wide range of traditions, including very old indigenous ones.

 

.... not that this means I can fully address what you wrote (nor feel a need to, I just wanted to state, that what you wrote isnt fully informed ... according to my experience) but just to outline, the position I come from, isnt just someone that has read some rituals from books and on the internet ( let alone just rely on that source).

 

Why did you just assume that ?

 

and certainly not sufficient to imply that writing like that is in any way a true reason for secrecy in Freemasonry.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

 

Its one of the reasons ... when people state things like :

 

" The "esoteric" slant offered is bait to gain and keep members. It is "bull-shit". "

 

In the Blue Lodge (the point of entry) I have not seen the esoteric side or interpretation much at all, they play it down actually and say they are concerned with good morals ,charity and fraternity. You offered no evidence to show how this carrot is dangled, then you declare it bullshit. It seems awfully biased or derogatory.

 

 

 

" Same shit, different empire. "

 

Again

 

" Freemasonry has a lot more to do with how to organize a municipality secretly so that, to the public, it looks like it "just happened" in the same way, everywhere. It has parallels with the elite cult of Sol Invictus during the Roman Empire, a cult of people drawn from elite circles and families (unifying) in the "human control" fields of finance, military, government, etc, while the public was given literalist Christianity to follow, by force. "

 

That is 'evidence by declaration ' ... since you delved into historical connections to support what you say, you should back them up. My experience with Masons has been with mostly the 'common man' in the Blue Lodge' and the 'nutter like me' in the Red Lodge.

 

Any so called 'Sol Invictus' types that were 'secretly organising the municipality' pissed off long ago and as anyone actually up to date on all this knows (instead of reading theories from books on defunct Masonic trends) , such types are busy enrolling in law and the political sciences (or are already established there).

Edited December 24, 2014 by Nungali

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Well then ... where did the post come from ? Did you make it up as a fantasy or fiction? Bait ? Something else ? Observations of others that are not their opinion ?"

-----

 

I wrote what I wrote, and in that are suggestions of how I came to view what I have.

 

And that's it for me on this subject.

 

If you have more to add of your own views to the thread, then feel free. I haven't disagreed with any true fact you have provided, and I have no intention of "debating" this. You just gave a long opinion or discussion about my post, and that is fine, and this one from me is just a reply. My posts on the actual subject stand as my statements here of experience in the matter, and anyone can take or leave or think about or ignore any of it.

 

Further info from my explorations relating to this can be found in the book I am currently finishing regarding some lesser-known aspects of the first battle of the Revolutionary War in 1775. I'll announce it here when it is available. I spent 33 years (no kidding) writing it.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rara]

I have been watching a series called, "America Unearthed" and it seems very clear to me that every single influential or successful person involved with the early years of America was a Freemason. Furthermore I think the Freemason's have roots in spirituality. I suspect they are teaching their members, or rather, were teaching their members, certain things that helped them to become influential and successful.

 

I am not so sure the Freemasons are doing this now. Is Obama a Freemason? Donald Trump? Bill Gates? Who was the last president, church leader or one of Amierca's Top 10 wealthiest people to be a Freemason? I of course can not be sure and do not know, but I would suspect that there hasn't been a Freemason in America's inner elite circles since the 80's or maybe even the 70's. if you are a Freemason and are allowed to do so, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

I just wonder what the Freemasons are teaching their members? It seems unikely that these people were already influential or successful before they become Freemasons. It seems more likely that this happened after they were initiated. They became the leadsers and forefathers of America. But after they became Freemasons, not before. It may even be likely some of these members were initiated by their parents when they were still children, although I do not know the rules around this.

 

So it seems likely that Freemason initiates used to be given information, maybe they even still are, that boosted them ahead of others in some way. It would be before the whole , "Law of Attraction" teahcings. Before the, "New Thought" and "Christian Science" movements. The only book that I can think would have the necessary teachings would be the Kybalion, but I believe there would have to be more to it than that.

 

So what do you think? Is there some secret training on some ancient text, or maybe even an ancient text copied and distributed to the various Freemason houses? If you are a Freemason, are you allowed to comment on this? Is what appears to be a decline in, "Secret Societies" due to these "New Thought" and LoA teachings becoming more available? Maybe back in the day people depeneded on Freemasonary to make them influential or successful, but today anyone can stumble on the right texts and teachings and make themselves successful. Do you think that is what's going on?

 

The reason I bring this up, odd as it is for this forums, is that I wonder sometimes if I should join such a society, provided I could get myself invited. Maybe whatever I learn there would give me the kick in the pants I need to become influential or successful myself. Just toying with the idea, asking questions, wondering. Curious as to the truth, if it can be pried out.

I know a couple here in the UK, and to me, it just seems to be a boys club...like a fraternity. I would say that joining can be beneficial as the guys will help you out, and vice versa, in a charitable kind of way.

 

As far as spirituality goes, they do have rituals and initiations etc. So do NFL teams, right? They have to believe in some form of higher power because they need to make oaths, a bit like a legal agreement.

 

That's as much as I know.

 

But maybe that's all I'm allowed to know from the outside

 

Hehe, give it a try. Why not?

[DreamBliss]

Well I did snoop around the Washington Grand Lodge Website, and it appears as though I am not compatible with Freemasonry.

First of all dualism is important in Freemasonry, but my spiritual experience has lead me to understand that an indvidual must move beyond dualism. Dualism is really at the root of all of humanity's problems as a race, in my opinion really. As long we insisit on balance and on there being black and white, there will always be us VS them, so there will always be struggle and warfare between humans.

Secondly while they claim to, can't remember the exact phrase, but something like, "...not interfere with other faiths..." yet stress teachings about God, it is, to my mind, just another cult or religion. As far as I am concerned this is another issue at the root of human society, because as long as our cults and religions tell us what to believe and how to think we have no need to experience what is commonly called God for ourselves, or remain free to believe whatever we wish to believe.

In short I choose to stay away from brainwashing in cults and religion, as well as anything that reinforces dualism in my life, to the best of my ability. I want to think for myself, experience Being or Source for myself, and free myself from dualistic, ego-based thinking.

That said it would be so much easier to just give up, join a religion or cult, and become a sheep again. Just allow others to determine my life experience for me and believe what they tell me. I can't remember the source, but I recall something about once your eyes are open you can't close them again. There is nothing harder than waking up and becoming aware. It's like leaving childhood, you can't go back. But right now, at this moment, I almost wish I could.

Thank you for all your interesting replies and information. I appreciate it!

Edited December 24, 2014 by DreamBliss

[Rara]

Well I did snoop around the Washington Grand Lodge Website, and it appears as though I am not compatible with Freemasonry.

 

First of all dualism is important in Freemasonry, but my spiritual experience has lead me to understand that an indvidual must move beyond dualism. Dualism is really at the root of all of humanity's problems as a race, in my opinion really. As long we insisit on balance and on there being black and white, there will always be us VS them, so there will always be struggle and warfare between humans.

 

Secondly while they claim to, can't remember the exact phrase, but something like, "...not interfere with other faiths..." yet stress teachings about God, it is, to my mind, just another cult or religion. As far as I am concerned this is another issue at the root of human society, because as long as our cults and religions tell us what to believe and how to think we have no need to experience what is commonly called God for ourselves, or remain free to believe whatever we wish to believe.

 

In short I choose to stay away from brainwashing in cults and religion, as well as anything that reinforces dualism in my life, to the best of my ability. I want to think for myself, experience Being or Source for myself, and free myself from dualistic, ego-based thinking.

 

That said it would be so much easier to just give up, join a religion or cult, and become a sheep again. Just allow others to determine my life experience for me and believe what they tell me. I can't remember the source, but I recall something about once your eyes are open you can't close them again. There is nothing harder than waking up and becoming aware. It's like leaving childhood, you can't go back. But right now, at this moment, I almost wish I could.

 

Thank you for all your interesting replies and information. I appreciate it!

Be careful...there is a difference between thinking for yourself (aka being judgemental) and then fully understanding. It's a mistake I often make.

[Nungali]

Ever since I escaped from catholicism at an early age I have NEVER joined or associated with any group, fraternity or religion for the purpose of not wanting to think for myself, experience Being or Source for myself.

 

It has never been about " being so much easier to just give up, join a religion or cult, and become a sheep again." Nor " allowing others to determine my life experience for me and believe what they tell me."

 

Its all been for a totally different reason ... something called ' independent investigation '.

 

I suppose it depends on one's nature ?

[Yasjua]

It takes a very sophisticated kind of thought that I can't master, and am not too interested in mastering, to understand freemason theory and symbolism. I have a friend who - in his well-developed mind - sees the necessary connections between music, art, astrology, numerology, historical events, tarot, geometry, mathematics, etc. to be able to decode the symbolism and structure and meaning of such secret societies as the freemasons, and the influence their teachings exerted or channeled through various persons. I think it takes a very fluid mind that can form many aberrant connections to really get at what's going on in traditions like these. The conspiracy crap seems shamelessly stupid in its simplicity.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Yasjua

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Nungali]

rediculous! Are you suggesting Freemasons are like a cult where you have to commit murder for entry ?

 

Thats the Thugees or the Hashishim or something like that.

 

You can 'get in' just by applying. And paying a fee of course, thats the 'sacrifice' to get in. But you get that anywhere ... if you want to be a part of an organisation ... someone has to pay the expenses of that organisation.

 

Some people seem to have Freemasons mixed up with

 

 

Edited December 26, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

It takes a very sophisticated kind of thought that I can't master, and am not too interested in mastering, to understand freemason theory and symbolism.

 

It can be understood on a very simple level. the members of Blue Lodges ( 1 - 3 degrees) have no trouble and a vast majority of them (in my experience) are ;simple' working men ( heavy machinery operators, a log truck driver, a retired butcher , to name some of the professions of the local masons I have met) .

 

The 'higher degrees' in the red lodges are more specific and obscure and for more specific purpose.

 

Compare some of the imagery and analogy here ( Taoism, Vedanta, Buddhism) with Freemasonic;

 

A rough stone is like an uncultured person, a trued stone is one that has worked on and perfected themselves. What tools do you use to square a stone? They have similar analogy, ... not only that many terms have passed into everyday usage that are easy to understand ; Are you 'on the level ' . Similar; a truncated pyramid is the work of the self that is unfinished and constant. They are developmental concepts utilizing the familiar processes for the 'working man' .

 

 

 

I have a friend who - in his well-developed mind - sees the necessary connections between music, art, astrology, numerology, historical events, tarot, geometry, mathematics, etc.

 

It is a type of 'mentative synesthesia' , not everyone works that way ... some are very lineal .

 

to be able to decode the symbolism and structure and meaning of such secret societies as the freemasons, and the influence their teachings exerted or channeled through various persons. I think it takes a very fluid mind that can form many aberrant connections to really get at what's going on in traditions like these. The conspiracy crap seems shamelessly stupid in its simplicity.

 

Aberrant ? Perhaps more ; penetrative insight into the meaning of symbols in context of the age when they were popular.

[Rara]

Ever since I escaped from catholicism at an early age

Is it inappropriate that I found this line funny, taking it out of context?

 

Or were you literally running from priests?

[Rara]

rediculous! Are you suggesting Freemasons are like a cult where you have to commit murder for entry ?

 

Thats the Thugees or the Hashishim or something like that.

 

You can 'get in' just by applying. And paying a fee of course, thats the 'sacrifice' to get in. But you get that anywhere ... if you want to be a part of an organisation ... someone has to pay the expenses of that organisation.

 

Some people seem to have Freemasons mixed up with

 

 

My kung fu academy is a secret society. You don't learn anything until you pay for lessons