Tzujan (from other thread)

[dust]

Hi Dusty. I'm glad you joined in. The more people to keep me straight the better.

 

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you already understand the concept.

 

Well, I understand the modern translation of 自然 ziran Tzujan is "nature" as we use the term (trees, cats, clouds),

and I also believe I understand it as the philosophical concept that you guys are talking about.

 

What I don't understand is how they're not the same thing..

 

Self-so is a nice literal translation, and we can understand the whole idea fairly easily by simply looking at nature; at evolution and geology and human society and everything else..

 

 

And yes, it (Tzujan) is the nature of the entire universe - all things manifest and all non-things either returned or not yet manifest. But all things and all non-things have their own Tzujan. Different processes apply to different states and conditions.

 

Different processes apply, or in other words different patterns develop and require different interactions.

 

But all patterns have developed, originally, from the one original pattern.

[rene]

(simply put, one has to go against the flow of certain mechanical like or so called natural forces to make the "return")

 

Right! Against the flow of mechanical/natural forces.

 

And - Tao, to me, flows in all directions simultaneously - so it's not possible to flow against Tao or the Way of Tao.

 

Every moment of change, every action and non-action, is one of equal simultaneous creation and destruction, equal simultaneous going and returning. Such is the Way of Tao.

 

Perpetual IMO applied. (-:

 

 

p.s... "Flow" isn't precisely the right word or even idea here because it implies movement relative to a fixed position. With Tao everywhere, it really is an undefinable process. But..since words are all we have to discuss this... 'flow' will have to do. Hopefully using the word isn't imprinting too much misconception in those who still seek what was never lost in the first place.

[ChiDragon]

Well, I understand the modern translation of 自然 ziran Tzujan is "nature" as we use the term (trees, cats, clouds),

and I also believe I understand it as the philosophical concept that you guys are talking about.

 

What I don't understand is how they're not the same thing..

 

Self-so is a nice literal translation, and we can understand the whole idea fairly easily by simply looking at nature; at evolution and geology and human society and everything else..

 

In the Chinese language, 自然 doesn't use as the "nature of a person" as in English. Most of the time, 自然 was used as an adjective as "being natural" in Chinese.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Self-so is a nice literal translation, and we can understand the whole idea fairly easily by simply looking at nature; at evolution and geology and human society and everything else..

Agree. I mention often that we should observe the processes in nature. And yes, this is the nature you are talking about. It would take too long to observe the "self-so-ness" of the Ten Thousand Things.

 

Different processes apply, or in other words different patterns develop and require different interactions.

 

But all patterns have developed, originally, from the one original pattern.

Agree again. And this is why I have not been convinced otherwise regarding my understanding that Tao follows Tzujan. The processes already existed prior to the Big Bang.

[dawei]

This doesn't make sense, does it?

 

it's not the nature of the physical world, but

it's a process of self-development - with no apparent reason

 

What's nature -- outdoor mother nature -- if not a process of self-development with no apparent reason?

 

I agree up to "no apparent reason"... even an earthquake has a 'reason'... we can look at the 'influences' of the system it self-develops within.

[dawei]

A tangent: I think it is or can be a major misunderstanding when we hear the term, "go with the flow", for going with the flow can also be a mechanical like and unconscious being blown about by the wind. There is no 'Sage" in the condition of being blown about unconsciously in the wind. (or if using the water and river analogy) Thus it takes a conscious will to surrender one's will to a greater law - or be taken by a lesser law of being blown about unconsciously with the flow of mechanical like forces. (simply put, one has to go against the flow of certain mechanical like or so called natural forces to make the "return")

 

I have talked about this in a similar way in the past... that going with dao is similar to a surrender; you don't 'get out of the way' as some have said but you merge as one with what is going on.

 

You mention it with 'conscious will to surrender' and 'unconsciously with the flow of mechanical like forces'.... but there can be unconscious surrender and consciously jumping into the flow of mechanical forces.

 

To me, conscious / unconscious is not important; IMO, it is about listening to the inner voice which can be lead by local/physical signals and universal signals. The more we tune in to the latter the more we are simply with the flow (conscious or not).

[rene]

I agree up to "no apparent reason"... even an earthquake has a 'reason'... we can look at the 'influences' of the system it self-develops within.

 

The 'influences' show us the 'how' the 'action/reaction' of an system/event occurs

 

Earthquakes occur due to geologic forces (pressure, etc)

 

But the 'reason' the subatomic interactions of matter cause pressure to occur at all is -

 

That is what they do. Tzujan.

[dawei]

That is what they do. Tzujan.

 

It is what they do within the current system...

 

Change to space... we can still say 'what they do is Tzujan' ... so Tzujan is a constant reflection of the system influences.

[Brian]

Who am I to think I understand the way well enough to judge what is "with the Tao" and what is "against the Tao?"

 

I can only align my own individual behaviors with my own intuition in the moment of the moment, listen to the small still voice inside my heart, and act in good faith.

 

The Tao will take care of itself.

 

For me to think I can anticipate whether the child I save from drowning might become a serial-killer is hubris, as is speculating that child might find the cure for cancer (much less the more nuanced question of whether a cure for cancer would necessarily be "a good thing...")

 

What I can do is be more aware of the ripples I experience, of the ripples I create, and of the resonances they generate. I can then only have faith that this process of listening and acting with intent is itself in the path.

[rene]

It is what they do within the current system...

 

Change to space... we can still say 'what they do is Tzujan' ... so Tzujan is a constant reflection of the system influences.

 

Reflection, yes; because, for me, Tzujan is the 'why' ____ does what it does.

 

A force will push against a rock. (observable, measurable, explainable influences)

Why does a force push? (what causes force's dynamics to even occur at all?)

Because that is what it does. (Tzujan)

 

Why do subatomic particles attract/repel?

Because that is what they do. (Tzujan)

 

 

 

Edit:typo

Edited December 27, 2014 by rene

[dawei]

Reflection, yes; because, for me, Tzujan is the 'why' ____ does what it does.

 

A force will push against a rock. (observable, measurable, explainable)

Why does a force push? (what causes force's dynamics to even occur at all?)

Because that is what it does. (Tzujan)

 

Why do subatomic particles attract/repel?

Because that is what they do. (Tzujan)

 

I don't think we disagree about 'why'... its just that for me, there is a time when this is not enough for real practical application.

 

For ourselves, we can just ignore any concepts and find this 'why' working too...

 

But once we starting interacting with nature, for example, we observe water to understand how Tzujan plays out... and for water, gravity is an important aspect of it. Yu The Great was successful in solving the flooding problems where his father Gun was not because he understood 'why' on a practical level.

 

I've now forgotten the topic so I am probably veering off course

 

 

added:

TT first mentioned this point about Yu : http://thetaobums.com/topic/16623-ttc-study-chapter-8-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=600056

[rene]

Oh! I'm not talking about practical applications!

 

For me, everything is unboundaried physical and mystical.

 

Tzujan is the of the veiled world, reaching into this one, giving rise to to the manifest's self-so-ness.

 

Never mind.

 

warm regards

[3bob]

Well if we go with the idea of the Tao that "goes far" namely to The One and on then on to the Ten Thousand, along with the idea of "return" being from the Ten Thousand which in effect is a very convoluted and a relatively un-conscious "natural" point or state of being swept along mechanically or under various forms of suffering) it then stands to reason (so to speak) that a being could be stuck in that part of the current unless they made a conscious effort to return to or go against said mechanical aspect of the current to what is also natural in Source and its singular law which is seemingly but not really hidden inside and outside everywhere. (if you will)

 

For as long as a being feels disconnection from source as in lost and bound in spun-out convolutions - it will not rest or know the freedom and peace that ultimately is.

 

(minor edit)

Edited December 28, 2014 by 3bob

[rene]

Nice post 3bob

For as long as a being feels disconnection from source as in lost and bound in spun-out convolutions - it will not rest or know the freedom and peace that ultimately is.

From The Laozi Ch 23:

He who follows the Tao
Is at one with the Tao.
..
He who loses the way
Is lost.
..
When you are at one with the Tao,
The Tao welcomes you.
..
When you are at one with loss,
The loss is experienced willingly.

 

 

Because Tao is everywhere, it is in 'loss' as well.

 

By trusting that,, the 'return' of Tao occurs ~ and the way is found again.

 

( At least that's how I find my way back home in the dark. )

 

 

[dawei]

Well if we go with the idea of

 

I think like Rene... I agree...

 

I was only pointing out that conscious vs unconscious is relative and hard to generalize.

 

Should we say this is like "many are called but few are choosen" ? Few see 'the way'; fewer truly reside in it...

 

But we can't discount that some are simply 'happy' or feel fulfilled to the end of their days... and know nothing of dao... or do they?

[rene]

But we can't discount that some are simply 'happy' or feel fulfilled to the end of their days... and know nothing of dao... or do they?

 

They know nothing of dao - like a fish knows nothing of water.

They just swim in it. (-:

 

[dawei]

They know nothing of dao - like a fish knows nothing of water.

They just swim in it. (-:

 

which is to say they followed their own "Way" without knowing it. Probably superbly

 

It is a vastly different issue to say whether they have approached an obtaining of Dao as described by LZ and ZZ.

[Brian]

I suspect they are indifferent to an obtaining of Tao as described by LZ and ZZ, and, if it were explained to them, would likely just shrug (if they had shoulders...)

[rene]

which is to say they followed their own "Way" without knowing it. Probably superbly

 

It is a vastly different issue to say whether they have approached an obtaining of Dao as described by LZ and ZZ.

 

What?? And how exactly did Li Erh say Dao was 'obtained' ???

(I dont care about ZZ)

 

(sorry, maybe too much wine here)

 

Wait - Are you talking about Taoist Cultivation practices (that were revisionistically included in the laozi renditions by those who needed them in there for support of their dogma??) Or ??

 

Thanks!

[dust]

Wait - Are you talking about Taoist Cultivation practices (that were revisionistically included in the laozi renditions by those who needed them in there for support of their dogma??) Or ??

 

Yeah, maybe a li'l too much wine, but I agree with your basic point about revisionism.

 

Not sure why you don't care about ZZ, though... he was a nice guy

[Marblehead]

Oh! I'm not talking about practical applications!

 

For me, everything is unboundaried physical and mystical.

 

Tzujan is the of the veiled world, reaching into this one, giving rise to to the manifest's self-so-ness.

 

Never mind.

 

warm regards

Well, I give you credit for taking a good shot at that thought concept.

 

We still aren't in agreement regarding the unboundriedness of the physical though. Limits abound in the Manifest. Not so in the mystical.

 

And yes, I'm still talking about Tzujan here. The limits, as well as their capabilities and capacities, of the Manifest are their Tzujan.

[Marblehead]

Well if we go with the idea of the Tao that "goes far" namely to The One and on then on to the Ten Thousand, along with the idea of "return" being from the Ten Thousand which in effect is a very convoluted and a relatively un-conscious "natural" point or state of being swept along mechanically or under various forms of suffering) it then stands to reason (so to speak) that a being could be stuck in that part of the current unless they made a conscious effort to return to or go against said mechanical aspect of the current to what is also natural in Source and its singular law which is seemingly but not really hidden inside and outside everywhere. (if you will)

 

For as long as a being feels disconnection from source as in lost and bound in spun-out convolutions - it will not rest or know the freedom and peace that ultimately is.

 

(minor edit)

That caused me to recall in my mind something Wayne Wang mentioned. He was talking about the state of Yo and suggested that it is possible for us to become so immersed in the material world that we become what he called "lost souls". My mind has taken that a bit further and I suggest that we can also become so immersed in the mystical world that we become "lost souls" as well.

 

Of course, we can always seek out a return but it first requires knowing that we have become lost. And that's not easy!!!

 

Sorry. That was off topic but I wanted to say it.

[Marblehead]

which is to say they followed their own "Way" without knowing it. Probably superbly

Yes. That is Tzujan.

[Marblehead]

(sorry, maybe too much wine here)

Hehehe. I won't even speak to that post.

[Marblehead]

Not sure why you don't care about ZZ, though... he was a nice guy

Once in a discussion Rene did actually agree with something Chuang Tzu had said.