3bob Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) They know nothing of dao - like a fish knows nothing of water. They just swim in it. (-: They swim unconsciously to whatever degree or measure while having few choices, thus they are mainly driven by mechanical like forces, we as mankind also walk around unconsciously to whatever degree although having an "X" amount of more choices and gobbs more potential for development, still we are also often driven by mechanical like forces - for example marching off to war instead of nipping it in the bud per exercising non-mechanical reactions. One might ask if being a non-participating observer of Tzujan is really Tzujan which could imply one being fully conscious and fully participating at a level that is free of all mechanical like actions or reactions? (meaning how can there be true spontaneous-ness in the sense of Tao without true freedom?) Edited December 28, 2014 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 we can also become so immersed in the mystical world that we become "lost souls" as well. Agree totally. 'Both' realms are needed; which is why traditions that encourage only the emptiness are as lopsided as the ones who ignore the mystical completely. imo, of course. . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 Well, I give you credit for taking a good shot at that thought concept. We still aren't in agreement regarding the unboundriedness of the physical though. Limits abound in the Manifest. Not so in the mystical. And yes, I'm still talking about Tzujan here. The limits, as well as their capabilities and capacities, of the Manifest are their Tzujan. Yes, limits abound within the Manifest. I'm talking about the Manifest being unboundaried with the Mystical. Both are present in all things; interacting, rising and falling. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 Yeah, maybe a li'l too much wine, but I agree with your basic point about revisionism. Not sure why you don't care about ZZ, though... he was a nice guy Lots of nice guys have wrong ideas. (-: Nah..that's unfair. And maybe his ideas were fine - but he (actually his followers who wrote the ZZ long after he was dead) took the simple ideas clearly laid out in The Laozi and complicated them unnecessarily. But hell, that's okay. Everybody needs a hobby, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 Once in a discussion Rene did actually agree with something Chuang Tzu had said. I somewhat recall that, but not specifically what it was. Must have been something so inherently simple that ZZ couldn't twist it. (-: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 One might ask if being a non-participating observer of Tzujan is really Tzujan which could imply one being fully conscious and fully participating at a level that is free of all mechanical like actions or reactions? (meaning how can there be true spontaneous-ness in the sense of Tao without true freedom?) Because freedom is a state of mind - and that is the realm of ideas. Choose without choosing. (-: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 28, 2014 Because freedom is a state of mind - and that is the realm of ideas. Choose without choosing. (-: I was hoping for a more in-depth response to that from you but I guess that one-liner will have to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 I was hoping for a more in-depth response to that from you but I guess that one-liner will have to do. More words count less; hold fast to the center. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) Perhaps,.......... the unformed(spiritual). Spiritual is always mystical to me. Edited December 29, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 Hi rene. The two realms are the emptiness and the mystical? I'll add my experience of the two "realms": the formed (physical) and the unformed (qi). Best to you -- Hey RV! Wonderful to see you! (-: The two realms I refer to (and terms others call them) are: 1. Mystery - emptiness, wu, nothingness, unformed (qi), etc 2. Manifest - physical, reality, fullness, yo, formed, etc Some 'concept ideas' dance (travel) easily between the realms: potential, spiritual, etc. Potential, for example is sourced in Mystery - but is easily measurable in some manifest applications. (Kinetic energy, etc) Sorry my last post was unclear! I'm kinda out of practice using words, heh. warmest regards 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted December 28, 2014 Because freedom is a state of mind - and that is the realm of ideas. Choose without choosing. (-: The way I look at it is that "mind" can not attain a state of complete freedom since it is inherently dualistic, besides it's not master nor meant to be master of spirit but servant to It, thus only consciously conscious spirit is completely free. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted December 28, 2014 The way I look at it is that "mind" can not attain a state of complete freedom since it is inherently dualistic, besides it's not master nor meant to be master of spirit but servant to It, thus only consciously conscious spirit is completely free. I think it's okay we disagree about this. To me, mind is not inherently only dualistic: aspects of the non-dual are there as well. Sometimes most evident in creative artistic expressions. Maybe there's an artist or two here that could elaborate on the sources of inspiration that flow from the mystical. (-: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 28, 2014 Sorry my last post was unclear! I'm kinda out of practice using words, heh. That was funny but I'm not going to comment to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted December 30, 2014 that was a comment but I'm not going say it was funny Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 30, 2014 that was a comment but I'm not going say it was funny Yeah, I can find funny in the strangest places. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) a quote to chew on: (if you like) "It is hoped that we have demonstrated convincingly the main conclusion that the cyclicalmovement between two opposites is absent in spontaneous changes and is typical ofunspontaneous changes. The Taoist sage is the one who can follow the course of spontaneouschanges and avoid unspontaneous changes. In so doing, he can preserve or restore the peaceand harmony in the universe and live a long life free from dangers" from a pdf file found on the net named: "lao_tzu_on_changes" Further header: Two Kinds of Changes in Lao Tzu’s Thought By Sung-Peng Hsu Published in Journal of Chinese Philosophy Vol. 4 No. 4 December 1977 Edited January 1, 2015 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 1, 2015 a quote to chew on: (if you like) "It is hoped that we have demonstrated convincingly the main conclusion that the cyclical movement between two opposites is absent in spontaneous changes and is typical of unspontaneous changes. The Taoist sage is the one who can follow the course of spontaneous changes and avoid unspontaneous changes. In so doing, he can preserve or restore the peace and harmony in the universe and live a long life free from dangers" from a pdf file found on the net named: "lao_tzu_on_changes" Further header: Two Kinds of Changes in Lao Tzu’s Thought By Sung-Peng Hsu Published in Journal of Chinese Philosophy Vol. 4 No. 4 December 1977 Interesting point... time to have a read Added: MH needs to read this... It is sometimes argued that tzu-jan is a principle or reality higher than Tao. He seemed to suggest this in some discussions... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 1, 2015 Hehehe. I've read it. I like it very much. Shall we call "unspontaneous changes" "instincts"? Fear is an instinct. And bio-mechanical functions should not be included in the category of instincts. Instincts would be mental functions even if the functions are subconscious. It is sometimes argued that tzu-jan is a principle or reality higher than Tao. He seemed to suggest this in some discussions... I know I have come close to saying this but I haven't actually said it yet and likely never will. Tzujan is more at the Way of Tao. (As well as the Way of all things and non-things.) Tao follows Tzujan. Yes, Tao follows its own self-so-ness. As do all things and non-things. Rites, rituals and ceremonies are functions I would classify as unspontaneous changes in addition to our instinctual functions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Rites, rituals, and ceremonies done consciously of Tao are in no way unspontaneous - not unlike doing the dishes and scrubbing the floor consciously of Tao - or as a saying in Zen alludes to with. "chopping wood and carrying water". Thus MH it sounds to me like you are expressing your personal bias against certain forms based only a surface view of same. Edited January 1, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 1, 2015 Thus MH it sounds to me like you are expressing your personal bias against certain forms based only a surface view of same. That would likely be a pretty safe bet. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
