Tzujan (from other thread)

[3bob]

Hmm, Tzujan...
Is such a "spiritual naturalness" as Tzujan fully natural and or only "so-ness", and if so then it leaves no room for non-Tzujan and if that is so then is it still Tzujan since it would then be forcing itself which as previously defined or implied would not be "natural"?

Btw: there is the saying of "that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be" yet how could anyone or anything really be against the Tao "which is in all things"? Also, at some point all things cease to be anyway depending on how you count such, for instance if you count such on the level of molecules then all things are in near constant ceasing and reforming. One might continue by asking how much room or leeway does Tao allow for that which is against-Tao before such ceases to be since "soon" is not spontaneous as is the action of Tzujan ? This is all tied to who or what could pull off some off this non or against type of stuff? Heck, the Tao can pull off yin and yang at the extremes of both thus leaving room for such.

 

open to any comments?

Edited December 26, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the thread 3bob.

 

I have had this discussion before and always find it enjoyable, not only from the philosophical perspective but also from the psychological (human) perspective.

 

I would like to start off with the best, short definition of Tzujan that I know of. It is from a footnote in Wayne Wang's "Dynamic Tao":

 

"Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. I is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason."

 

So it is self-becoming if there were no external influences. Ha! That's actually funny from a human standpoint.

 

However, yes, I believe one can develop in ways that are not that person's Tzujan. This causes inner conflicts.

 

Nearly all the known universe follows its Tzujan except for humans and a few other species. Likely a result of our "intelligence".

 

But, to say that we act against the Tao, I think, is an error. Sure, we can act against the Way of Tao. And I will suggest that this is not always a bad thing.

 

Yes, we are all of Tao in a way of thinking and therefore there is Tao in all things.

 

And yes, there are many humans who live in a manner that we would consider against the Way of Tao. But remember, Tao is impartial. When it rains it rains on all equally. Hitler lasted a very long time after he started his campaign.

 

But eventually cause and effect will catch up with most of us. Some experience the effects of their actions much sooner than do others.

 

This is why I believe we should observe the workings of the Ten Thousand Things as well as possible and understand the processes of these things. We observe what leads to bad ends and what leads to good ends. I think most of us would opt for the good.

[3bob]

Hello MH, Thank you for the reflective reply!

 

"Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. I is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason." submitted by MH

 

And now I'll have to do some reflecting of my own. I think I've more or less melded parts of your submission above with Tao...

I'm not sure about the meaning of "Self-development" part of the definition if it is already "Self-so" in a "state of Oneness" if you know what I mean? (perhaps Self-expression would fit in there instead?)

 

I also take it that you mean the Tzujan is ideally reflected in the physical world?

 

Gotta run off to work right now, Later Bob

[rene]

Hi guys, great thread 3bob

Marblehead, I agree with most your words - and it was really nice to see Dr Wang's words again. I've lost touch with him and hope he is still well.

Regarding this part of your post:

But, to say that we act against the Tao, I think, is an error. Sure, we can act against the Way of Tao. And I will suggest that this is not always a bad thing.

I understand what you're pointing at and agree with your thought - but, to me, that's still not against the Way of Tao. It might be against the "Way that would produce a beneficial (to us) outcome" but the Way of Tao still has no preferences as to our success or not.

You allude to this below - and I agree. It's just the bolded sentence (above) that gives a misimpression, imo. I know others who assign our "doing the right thing" as being "following the way of Tao". It's not. Right/wrong (beneficial/harmful) are subjective actions. Nothing wrong with doing the 'right' thing (usually) but to assign a specific path/action as being tao or not-tao --- reflects a non-understanding of what, to me, is the greatest gift of all: A non-partial Tao, and a non-partial Way of Tao.

And yes, there are many humans who live in a manner that we would consider against the Way of Tao. But remember, Tao is impartial. When it rains it rains on all equally. Hitler lasted a very long time after he started his campaign.

 

***

 

Sorry for the digression: back to Tzujan! Spontaneously, of course!!

3bob said:

I also take it that you mean the Tzujan is ideally reflected in the physical world?

To me, yes, it is reflected in the physical world but as it is an aspect of the spiritual/mystery - its reflection is of a very numinous manner.

 

For example: healthy skin will replace (regenerate) itself by creating new skin cells as old ones sluff away. Skin cells. Not muscle or fat cells - skin cells. Self-creating, naturally, because of the DNA programming to do so. To me, Tzujan answers the question of 'why' the cells self-create. We can observe, through science and other means, what occurs - and physical cause/effect of events etc. But not the underlying 'why' things happen at all !!

 

It might be Tzujan enables (or is!!) the spark between inanimate and animate, and matter as it manifests in each moment of change.

 

 

 

with one foot in both worlds,

warm regards

[dawei]

"Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. I is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason."

 

So it is self-becoming if there were no external influences. Ha! That's actually funny from a human standpoint.

 

We require external influences... that is part of the concept of 'self'... but this is a small point.

 

However, yes, I believe one can develop in ways that are not that person's Tzujan. This causes inner conflicts.

 

Nearly all the known universe follows its Tzujan except for humans and a few other species. Likely a result of our "intelligence".

 

But, to say that we act against the Tao, I think, is an error. Sure, we can act against the Way of Tao. And I will suggest that this is not always a bad thing.

 

Yes, we are all of Tao in a way of thinking and therefore there is Tao in all things.

 

And yes, there are many humans who live in a manner that we would consider against the Way of Tao. But remember, Tao is impartial. When it rains it rains on all equally. Hitler lasted a very long time after he started his campaign.

 

But eventually cause and effect will catch up with most of us. Some experience the effects of their actions much sooner than do others.

 

I agree with Rene that there are some problematic wording... everything is following some 'way' but it may not be their beneficial destined path (borrowed beneficial from Rene ).

 

 

This is why I believe we should observe the workings of the Ten Thousand Things as well as possible and understand the processes of these things. We observe what leads to bad ends and what leads to good ends. I think most of us would opt for the good.

 

I get the idea of calling it bad vs good ends... and beneficial... but IMO, as it is a spiritual origin, I would simply say whether something follows its destined path of least resistance.

[dawei]

Hmm, Tzujan...

Is such a "spiritual naturalness" as Tzujan fully natural and or only "so-ness", and if so then it leaves no room for non-Tzujan and if that is so then is it still Tzujan since it would then be forcing itself which as previously defined or implied would not be "natural"?

 

I think it leaves no room for nonTzu-Jan.

 

Btw: there is the saying of "that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be" yet how could anyone or anything really be against the Tao "which is in all things"?

 

I think this is code for 'dies'.

 

Also, at some point all things cease to be anyway depending on how you count such, for instance if you count such on the level of molecules then all things are in near constant ceasing and reforming. One might continue by asking how much room or leeway does Tao allow for that which is against-Tao before such ceases to be since "soon" is not spontaneous as is the action of Tzujan ? This is all tied to who or what could pull off some off this non or against type of stuff? Heck, the Tao can pull off yin and yang at the extremes of both thus leaving room for such.

 

The bolded part is something I would want to hear some more from you first

[Michael Sternbach]

Can we act against the way of the Dao? (Strictly speaking, that means 'against the way of the way'; but let's not go there.) Yes, just like we can try to swim upstream in a river. Supposedly, the river doesn't care, it's just so much easier to swim with the stream (unless we happen to be a trout).

 

That being said, we CAN act against our own nature. When we do this, we will know by feeling unhappy, perhaps developing health problems etc. It's as though our Dao - part of the universal Dao - has certain aims. Aristotle was talking about the causa finalis, Teilhard de Chardin about the omega point. This has indeed got to do with self-development.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Talking about rivers and least resistance, I should add that there are streams and streams. Personally, I have been and continue swimming against some kind of stream (especially the stream of convention) often, feeling that the stream of my Dao wants to take me in the opposite direction.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[dust]

"Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. I is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason."

 

This doesn't make sense, does it?

 

it's not the nature of the physical world, but

it's a process of self-development - with no apparent reason

 

What's nature -- outdoor mother nature -- if not a process of self-development with no apparent reason?

[Marblehead]

 

I agree with Rene that there are some problematic wording...

Well, y'all shouldn't expect me to get a concept like this "all right" the first time around. Hehehe. I am still working with the concept because I haven't been able to take it out of the state of duality yet. Nor out of the "total Yo" state either.

 

From here I will jump around and respond to various comments.

[Marblehead]

And now I'll have to do some reflecting of my own. I think I've more or less melded parts of your submission above with Tao...

I'm not sure about the meaning of "Self-development" part of the definition if it is already "Self-so" in a "state of Oneness" if you know what I mean? (perhaps Self-expression would fit in there instead?)

Yeah, I can't, even if I wanted to, alter Wayne's words, only reflect upon them.

 

And here you pointed to an area where I am still "growing my ability for Self-expression". You, and others find it much easier to speak of the state of Wu and Yo than I do. I'm still a speaker of dualities.

 

I also take it that you mean the Tzujan is ideally reflected in the physical world?

Hehehe. Yep, you know me. The Materialist guy. If I can't see, touch, smell, hear or taste it then it likely doesn't exist. (For me.)

[Marblehead]

Hi guys, great thread 3bob

 

Marblehead, I agree with most your words - and it was really nice to see Dr Wang's words again. I've lost touch with him and hope he is still well.

 

Yeah, I lost contact with him when he wanted to talk about the concept of simultaneous arising of Wu and Yo where I couldn't go with the discussion at all.

 

And I haven't been to his site to know how he is at present. I too wish him well.

[Marblehead]

The bolded sentence reads:

 

Sure, we can act against the Way of Tao.

 

I understand what you're pointing at and agree with your thought - but, to me, that's still not against the Way of Tao. It might be against the "Way that would produce a beneficial (to us) outcome" but the Way of Tao still has no preferences as to our success or not.

You allude to this below - and I agree. It's just the bolded sentence (above) that gives a misimpression, imo. I know others who assign our "doing the right thing" as being "following the way of Tao". It's not. Right/wrong (beneficial/harmful) are subjective actions. Nothing wrong with doing the 'right' thing (usually) but to assign a specific path/action as being tao or not-tao --- reflects a non-understanding of what, to me, is the greatest gift of all: A non-partial Tao, and a non-partial Way of Tao.

Yeah, well, sometimes words are not sufficient. Hehehe.

 

True, the Way of Tao is all inclusive; the good, the bad, and the ugly. (And the pretty too.)

 

Or "Useful/Useless" perhaps? ie, right/wrong, beneficial/harmful.

 

Yes, we need remember that Tao is non-partial. But I am partial. Sorry, it's just the way I am.

[Marblehead]

We require external influences... that is part of the concept of 'self'... but this is a small point.

Agree. But then, much of our external input is destructive toward our "self-development". (Others want us to be like they are.)

[Marblehead]

I agree with Rene that there are some problematic wording... everything is following some 'way' but it may not be their beneficial destined path (borrowed beneficial from Rene ).

Yep. We can see I haven't figured it all out yet. A work in progress perhaps?

 

Everything matters but nothing matters.

 

That is because there is no destination. Only the processes. Does a star care when it is its time to explode? I think not.

[Marblehead]

 

I get the idea of calling it bad vs good ends... and beneficial... but IMO, as it is a spiritual origin, I would simply say whether something follows its destined path of least resistance.

I will always have a problem with this, I think, because of my materialistic thinking.

 

Sometimes it is better to not walk around the rock blocking the mountain path but rather to push the rock off the path and down the mountainside. (That would be more beneficial for all except those in the path of the falling rock.)

[Marblehead]

Can we act against the way of the Dao? (Strictly speaking, that means 'against the way of the way'; but let's not go there.)

No. And no, we won't go there now but I'm sure the question will return - it always does.

[Marblehead]

Yes, just like we can try to swim upstream in a river. Supposedly, the river doesn't care, it's just so much easier to swim with the stream (unless we happen to be a trout).

 

That being said, we CAN act against our own nature. When we do this, we will know by feeling unhappy, perhaps developing health problems etc. It's as though our Dao - part of the universal Dao - has certain aims. Aristotle was talking about the causa finalis, Teilhard de Chardin about the omega point. This has indeed got to do with self-development.

Exactly. The river doesn't care. But we do, especially if we have a chosen destination.

 

Yes, I think it is very possible to act against our own nature. (I used to live that life. It sucks!) And yes it brings about all sorts of internal conflicts, conflicts preventing us from having inner peace.

 

That is why I mentioned external influences above. I know they will happen. We need find ways to not allow them to negatively effect our own "self-so-ness".

[Marblehead]

Talking about rivers and least resistance, I should add that there are streams and streams. Personally, I have been and continue swimming against some kind of stream (especially the stream of convention) often, feeling that the stream of my Dao wants to take me in the opposite direction.

You are not alone in that boat.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yep. We can see I haven't figured it all out yet. A work in progress perhaps?

 

Everything matters but nothing matters.

 

That is because there is no destination. Only the processes. Does a star care when it is its time to explode? I think not.

The ejected stellar matter giving birth to new worlds. What is left of the star serves a purpose, too. If the star was massive enough, this will go on as a Black Hole, storing matter and information. Again, one day, after a very long time, it pops, setting its contents free. Possibly contributing to the creation of a new universe.

 

So, there are processes AND destinations - which in turn lead to new processes.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

This doesn't make sense, does it?

 

it's not the nature of the physical world, but

it's a process of self-development - with no apparent reason

 

What's nature -- outdoor mother nature -- if not a process of self-development with no apparent reason?

Hi Dusty. I'm glad you joined in. The more people to keep me straight the better.

 

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you already understand the concept.

 

And yes, it (Tzujan) is the nature of the entire universe - all things manifest and all non-things either returned or not yet manifest. But all things and all non-things have their own Tzujan. Different processes apply to different states and conditions.

[Marblehead]

The ejected stellar matter giving birth to new worlds. What is left of the star serves a purpose, too. If the star was massive enough, this will be a Black Hole storing matter and information. Again, one day, after a very long time, it pops, setting its contents free. Possibly contributing to the creation of a new universe.

 

So, there are processes AND destinations - which in turn lead to new processes.

Okay, now you've got it! Cycles within the linearity of time and space.

 

But I still see no destination, only processes.

[Michael Sternbach]

Okay, now you've got it! Cycles within the linearity of time and space.

 

But I still see no destination, only processes.

 

No final destinations - but stops and steps.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hmm... I thought about my last post. Perhaps there is a 'final destination' - in infinity! Which is another way of talking of the Dao.

[3bob]

A tangent: I think it is or can be a major misunderstanding when we hear the term, "go with the flow", for going with the flow can also be a mechanical like and unconscious being blown about by the wind. There is no 'Sage" in the condition of being blown about unconsciously in the wind. (or if using the water and river analogy) Thus it takes a conscious will to surrender one's will to a greater law - or be taken by a lesser law of being blown about unconsciously with the flow of mechanical like forces. (simply put, one has to go against the flow of certain mechanical like or so called natural forces to make the "return")