When the student is ready, the teacher...wait...are you really ready?

[Aetherous]

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

I've been thinking lately to start this thread, on how a student can make themselves truly ready. People can add whatever they think is essential for an aspiring student to cultivate.

 

*****

 

Imagine a teacher appearing, but you lack the discipline to even practice what they have to teach...what an absolute waste! Yet that's a fact for many of us, if only we were aware of it.

So this is my first contribution to the thread: we need to actively cultivate discipline. Before the teacher even appears.

 

¹dis·ci·pline

noun \ˈdi-sə-plən\

: control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior

: a way of behaving that shows a willingness to obey rules or orders

: behavior that is judged by how well it follows a set of rules or orders

 

Most students don't know what a teacher will require, of course...but it could be that the teacher requires 25% of your waking life to be dedicated to practices, or in other words, 4 hours of practice each day...and that's apart from meeting your duties in life (which a true teacher will likely also insist upon).

 

If you're very busy in working life, I'd say take it somewhat easy on yourself, and spend a full 2 hours each day practicing.

The key to discipline is to not stray from what you set out to do. It's typical for people to resist discipline in their feelings...they take a day off now and then because practice doesn't feel right to do. I know this all too well. But if you want to cultivate discipline, then you have to do as planned, even if you feel like you don't want to. Those useless feelings are actually your enemies in your practices, although they feel like they are "yours" and are thus worthwhile to listen to.

Other things can come in between yourself and your practice of discipline. Like friends, family, etc. It can help to decide in the first place, that you will only interrupt your practice for the sake of something life (or career) threatening. So that means, if your friend wants some attention during practice time, you have to say that you'll talk to them later...no matter what. But if your friend is literally dying and only you can save them...then it's necessary to go do that. Or if you're going to be fired from your job for not showing up during that time, then show up.

 

Without true discipline, a teacher's energy goes to waste...and they might leave you, or not even show up at all in the first place, and just leave you in the "spiritual marketplace" (where basically no teachings are legitimate) to figure it out for yourself.

But the worst is if a teacher sticks with you, and yet you're inadequate...you don't attain the result...that is, I think, when we really learn the importance of cultivating discipline.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Aetherous

[ChiDragon]

The key to discipline is to not stray from what you set out to do. It's typical for people to resist discipline in their feelings...they take a day off now and then because practice doesn't feel right to do. I know this all too well. But if you want to cultivate discipline, then you have to do as planned, even if you feel like you don't want to.

 

 

I've detected the unwillingness here. It would not be considered discipline if one's heart was not really into it. Self discipline has to be done with joy and amusement. By just going through the motions of formality is not discipline. E. g. I'd seen a demo recently, showing someone was just going through the motion of the Chen Style Tai Ji, real fast, instead of the pragmatic movements. I didn't know it was done purposely or what....!!!

[Aetherous]

I know what you're saying, but am going to disagree.

Lets take old style martial arts training for example (only because it's an easy example in this case). Does the student want to get up at 4 am, when it's cold outside of the blanket, and when they're exhausted and could get some rest and be healthier...and go monotonously lift sandbags for an hour, or whatever grueling training it is?

Are they getting out of bed with "joy and amusement"? NO. Perhaps what gets them out of bed is dedication to their path, because they ultimately love it more than anything else...but it's not like they want to train in that moment.

Especially if they've been at the same practice for years...hopefully there is joy and amusement, but it's highly likely at times that a person will feel like doing something else instead. What keeps them going is their decision, which comes from love of the goal or the journey.

 

Discipline is literally just doing what you have decided to do...that's all. It's not doing things because you enjoy them. This must be cultivated for success in anything. Choosing not to practice on a whim is not the way. You're right, it might indicate that your heart isn't fully into it...in which case, you're presented with a decision to make. Do you focus on your chosen path...or do you not want to attain the results, and instead to just do whatever?

Discipline causes the aspiring student to clearly make that choice. And if they choose the path, it causes an increase in love for the path...instead of their love being scattered on many different things.

[ChiDragon]

I understand you now. You were talking about under the discipline by others.....

[dawei]

First I want to say this is a really great thread... so kudos for it

 

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

I've been thinking lately to start this thread, on how a student can make themselves truly ready. People can add whatever they think is essential for an aspiring student to cultivate.

 

A very heavy weight came off... so here goes

 

Imagine a teacher appearing, but you lack the discipline to even practice what they have to teach...what an absolute waste! Yet that's a fact for many of us, if only we were aware of it.

So this is my first contribution to the thread: we need to actively cultivate discipline. Before the teacher even appears.

 

I think there are some assumptions about the teacher here... have you ever been a teacher of anything?

 

If you taught in any capacity, then you know your doing this more as a destiny-ability (although I've meet my share of teachers/coaches who are just forcing their role of teaching).

 

Most students don't know what a teacher will require, of course...but it could be that the teacher requires 25% of your waking life to be dedicated to practices, or in other words, 4 hours of practice each day...and that's apart from meeting your duties in life (which a true teacher will likely also insist upon).

 

This is testing the waters... many don't know what they should do... so they try something. Ever tried a Latte ?

 

If you're very busy in working life, I'd say take it somewhat easy on yourself, and spend a full 2 hours each day practicing.

 

moving one.. it depends...

 

The key to discipline is to not stray from what you set out to do. It's typical for people to resist discipline in their feelings...they take a day off now and then because practice doesn't feel right to do. I know this all too well. But if you want to cultivate discipline, then you have to do as planned, even if you feel like you don't want to. Those useless feelings are actually your enemies in your practices, although they feel like they are "yours" and are thus worthwhile to listen to.

 

This topic seems to be more about discipline... and now I understand title...

 

Realize that people occupy a spectrum of 'ready' to 'not-ready'... there is not one 'discipline' to cover everyone...

 

Other things can come in between yourself and your practice of discipline. Like friends, family, etc. It can help to decide in the first place, that you will only interrupt your practice for the sake of something life (or career) threatening. So that means, if your friend wants some attention during practice time, you have to say that you'll talk to them later...no matter what. But if your friend is literally dying and only you can save them...then it's necessary to go do that. Or if you're going to be fired from your job for not showing up during that time, then show up.

 

Without true discipline, a teacher's energy goes to waste...and they might leave you, or not even show up at all in the first place, and just leave you in the "spiritual marketplace" (where basically no teachings are legitimate) to figure it out for yourself.

But the worst is if a teacher sticks with you, and yet you're inadequate...you don't attain the result...that is, I think, when we really learn the importance of cultivating discipline.

 

I'll end with this... and I've said it similarly in other threads:

 

Duty vs Discipline vs Destiny

 

Practice vs Path

 

 

Destiny and Path is all that really matters... but some are not even aware of it.. they are dipping their toe in the water; they are feeling something with a significant other; they are awakened by their cup of Joe... or sunset... or horns in Manhattan... at some point, some simply get a jolt of something beyond life...

 

This is a good thread and I don't want to veer off from the intended topic which seems more about prepared discipline...

 

I've said many times, per Baopuzi: Practice is not natural... so why do we seek it?

 

I accept the spectrum of folks... your poking here along a spectrum with getting them prepared but they are not even aware of what is going on in most cases.

 

So maybe you want to talk to that spectrum of folks who don't know but if they asked... you want to say something to them?

[Aetherous]

This is a good thread and I don't want to veer off from the intended topic which seems more about prepared discipline...

 

It's all good. I actually meant for the thread to be a free for all, where people share what they think is most essential in getting ready to be a worthy student. I personally plan on bringing up other helpful things; not just discipline.

 

 

 

I think there are some assumptions about the teacher here... have you ever been a teacher of anything?

 

I've had to be a few times, and wasn't too good at it. I do consider myself somewhat of a teacher, in the same way that friends can teach each other things by their actions (sometimes their mistakes), and by dropping little pearls of wisdom now and then...but definitely not formally set up as a teacher...nor do I want to be in this thread.

 

I am truly just a student, and not a good one...so I have experience in the topic of being ready or not.

 

If you taught in any capacity, then you know your doing this more as a destiny-ability (although I've meet my share of teachers/coaches who are just forcing their role of teaching).

 

Well, by teacher, I personally mean someone who is basically omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal, among other things...haha...but the thread can be referring to any kind of teacher.

 

This is testing the waters... many don't know what they should do... so they try something. Ever tried a Latte ?

 

You are right...it's important for aspiring students to get a feel for the playing field...this can take years of trying different paths. Lots of money spent in the spiritual marketplace.

 

But during those years they could be doing some solid cultivation at the same time!

 

It's said that 95% of mastery is just doing the basics really well. The basics never end. So I just wanted to explore here: what are the basics?

 

Realize that people occupy a spectrum of 'ready' to 'not-ready'... there is not one 'discipline' to cover everyone...

 

True. It's just my personal belief that the ability to follow through with what you decided upon is a key factor for being "ready". For the not-ready people, such as myself, it's something to work on and cultivate.

 

I've said many times, per Baopuzi: Practice is not natural... so why do we seek it?

 

Well, perhaps that's a transcendent way of understanding...it can be practical in terms of letting go, which brings real benefits...but it's not meant to be taken as, "forget about this stuff and just watch Housewives of Atlanta while sipping your peppermint mocha". Or is it?

 

I accept the spectrum of folks... your poking here along a spectrum with getting them prepared but they are not even aware of what is going on in most cases.

 

So maybe you want to talk to that spectrum of folks who don't know but if they asked... you want to say something to them?

 

Well...my intent for this thread is, with the help of other forum members, to come up with solid ideas for real progress in beginners...or for advanced people, to reassess what they do. If they practice these things, then they will come into contact with teachers, and they will also do well. If there's no contact with teachers, at least their life will have become noticeably better, as a result of real progress.

[dawei]

It's all good. I actually meant for the thread to be a free for all, where people share what they think is most essential in getting ready to be a worthy student. I personally plan on bringing up other helpful things; not just discipline.

 

I do get this... I hold a 'destiny' orientation; if it is within one's destiny it will be revealed; otherwise, for most, they are probably better to join Planet Fitness and enjoy life as-is. We can't know if we're in our lifetime to experience another level till it hits us... and to be fair to everyone, how can they know it if someone doesn't show them something too !

 

I've had to be a few times, and wasn't too good at it. I do consider myself somewhat of a teacher, in the same way that friends can teach each other things by their actions (sometimes their mistakes), and by dropping little pearls of wisdom now and then...but definitely not formally set up as a teacher...nor do I want to be in this thread.

 

I am truly just a student, and not a good one...so I have experience in the topic of being ready or not.

 

That is good... good students have an instinct for good teaching... but not all good students result in good teachers.

 

Well, by teacher, I personally mean someone who is basically omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal, among other things...haha...but the thread can be referring to any kind of teacher.

 

I taught soccer for 20 years... one day, my assistant said, "you teach soccer like Zen"... I said, "what is Zen" ?

 

Some teachers are natural and some acquire what is needed and others just do it because they do it.

 

You are right...it's important for aspiring students to get a feel for the playing field...this can take years of trying different paths. Lots of money spent in the spiritual marketplace.

 

But during those years they could be doing some solid cultivation at the same time!

 

It's said that 95% of mastery is just doing the basics really well. The basics never end. So I just wanted to explore here: what are the basics?

 

I get this too. some need to just go through the motions and see what unfolds. This seems to be your focus which I think is admirable and worthy of pursuit

 

True. It's just my personal belief that the ability to follow through with what you decided upon is a key factor for being "ready". For the not-ready people, such as myself, it's something to work on and cultivate.

 

Yes and no... hard to explain.

 

Well, perhaps that's a transcendent way of understanding...it can be practical in terms of letting go, which brings real benefits...but it's not meant to be taken as, "forget about this stuff and just watch Housewives of Atlanta while sipping your peppermint mocha". Or is it?

 

transcendent for some... and peppermint mocha for others... that is the spectrum.

 

Well...my intent for this thread is, with the help of other forum members, to come up with solid ideas for real progress in beginners...or for advanced people, to reassess what they do. If they practice these things, then they will come into contact with teachers, and they will also do well. If there's no contact with teachers, at least their life will have become noticeably better, as a result of real progress.

 

We don't determine another's destiny; we point a way; we are a guide at times. We can even help them travel.

 

But sometimes, as is said: I only see further because I stand on the shoulder of giants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

[Daeluin]

Learning the way goes into some deep and subtle places within a psyche.

Having discipline doesn't mean one can benefit from any teaching.

There are plenty of examples of people who train hard but manage to miss the heart.

Discipline is important for sure; maintaining sincerity is necessary and especially difficult in times like these.

 

But that sincerity needs focus, direction. And it needs to come from, to have a relationship with the heart, the core. The heart is the compass to one's destiny.

 

I feel that if one is able to tune into the heart's intention, one will be led to a teacher who shares that intention, when and if the sincerity of one's spirit and heart is able to cut through all other distractions and obstacles. Sometimes this just means maintaining sincerity until the timing is right. And like cultivating the tao, seeking is best done with humility, with more listening than asking.

[Taomeow]

How about "when the teacher is ready, the student appears?"

[JinlianPai]

Im sorry none of this seem realistic.

 

The truth is in the beginning the teacher and the student are unsure about each other but each is hopeful. In the beginning they might not even like each other.

 

and both holds back.

 

Plus how can the student even comprehend the level of mastery his teacher has in the beginning.

 

The student is weary of the teacher and art and thinks, "is this right for me?"

 

The teacher thinks, "is this the student who will be dedicated and is worthy to pass my art on to?"

 

Time will tell.

 

If everything goes right.

 

The relationship will grow like fine wine.

 

The student will be dedicated and love the art and tradition it came from and practice sincerely.

 

The master will care for the student like his own child. An the 2 will speak and or meetup daily to talk about the training and the art.

Edited December 28, 2014 by JinlianPai

[Taoist Texts]

The master will care for the student like his own child.

a master of what exactly would do that?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[ChiDragon]

a master of what exactly would do that?

A master who teaches his students with the best of the art.....!?

Edited December 28, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Im sorry none of this seem realistic.

 

The truth is in the beginning the teacher and the student are unsure about each other but each is hopeful. In the beginning they might not even like each other.

 

and both holds back.

 

Plus how can the student even comprehend the level of mastery his teacher has in the beginning.

 

Why should they might not even like each other...??? It is up to the teacher to make the class interesting and keep the students enthusiastic. Otherwise, the teacher is not qualify as a teacher and failed to teach a class.

[Taoist Texts]

A master who teaches his students with the best of the art.....!?

what art would that be for example?

[ChiDragon]

what art would that be for example?

Whatever.....!!! Chi kung, Tai Ji Quan, Shiaolin Kung Fu and so far......etc.

[MooNiNite]

when you're ready the teacher will appear. no doubt.

Edited December 28, 2014 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

he will never leave either. he's always there. because his is always present. a presence that is immortal. he/she is there always in the space

[Taoist Texts]

Whatever.....!!! Chi kung, Tai Ji Quan, Shiaolin Kung Fu and so far......etc.

oh those 傍门

[dust]

No rules for me thanks

 

edit: and I definitely do not take orders

Edited December 28, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Aetherous]

The student is weary of the teacher and art and thinks, "is this right for me?"

 

If the student is somewhat "ready", then the way they find out whether the teacher is right for them or not, is by putting the teachings to the test. Following instructions and practicing.

 

The way is not to receive teachings and then skip the practices, practice incorrectly, or otherwise not apply the teachings at all...and I doubt anyone could ever sensibly argue that it is.

 

If a student isn't ready, they will dip their toes in the water instead of jumping in. Which is fine. Perhaps when they feel how good the water feels, they will eventually jump in and listen to their guide. Or maybe they jump in, and then rush back out of the pool to go back to normalcy. It's all good...the burden of a teaching happening is on the teacher, and not on the student. But the burden of applying the teaching is on the student alone.

 

Anyway, moving on from "discipline" hopefully, which most people don't like to hear about. This is all just food for thought. And this thread is NOT about the subject of discipline.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Aetherous

[Cheshire Cat]

*****

 

Imagine a teacher appearing, but you lack the discipline to even practice what they have to teach...what an absolute waste! Yet that's a fact for many of us, if only we were aware of it.

 

 

The main point to consider is that a teacher will usually demand something from the student.

More often than not, they ask for money.

 

If you're willing to pay, in no time a teacher will appear knocking at your door.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited January 9, 2015 by chris d

[liminal_luke]

This thread brings up an all-important question: Where does your motivation for practice come from? In Taoist terms, which shen, or organ-spirit, is in charge of the cultivation schedule. Or we might ask, in a more western psychological vein, which sub-personality governs this activity.

 

A group of students gathers to practice for one hour. One practices out of sheer joy; the practice comes naturally from the heart, and there´s nothing the student would rather be doing. Other students practice in a dry, mechanical --even robotic-- way out of a sense of obligation. Perhaps one has a parent who said she´d never amount to anything, and cultivation represents a way of proving that introjected voice wrong. Another hopes to numb out a sense of shame by cultivating super powers or extraordinary prowess in the bedroom. Yet another wants to learn to fight so he can confidently overpower another man in a street fight.

 

Although the practice time might be the same, the fruits of cultivation for these different students will vary. The source of motivation matters every bit as much as the absolute number of hours put in.

 

Liminal

Edited December 28, 2014 by liminal_luke

[ChiDragon]

oh those 傍门

 

Yes, 傍門左道, the illegitimate practice too.

[thewhitetiger]

Very interesting thread.

There are so many factors to this.

If the teacher is a hardcore traditionalist it is most likely the student will only learn the surface or most peripheral elements, especially if that teacher already has other more senior students. No mater the amount of personal time dedicated to training that teacher will not be interested in teaching some of the more in-depth, spiritual or technical aspects.

In a story that was told to me by my one of my own teachers, a Master from the early 20th Century taught chi kung and kung fu very traditionally..he never taught more then the surface of the art to everyone except for two of his senior students, who had been given the real elements that would make the art work.

One day he encountered a family member who was dying of a disease. He knew he could help this man but he never put in the time his other students had done, yet without his help he would surely die.

He finally took it upon himself to teach this family member the true healing methods. In the hospital he would arrive everyday to teach and everyday he found so many others that needed the knowledge he had in order to live.The dying man did heal himself and was so grateful he praised the Master for his generosity. The Master broke down, feeling great shame, he held his knowledge selfishly back from so many others who could have lived a better life if they had the knowledge he possessed.

It was from that day forth he began to teach the true depth of his art. He taught it to the sick and dying, he taught women and he felt a great weight lift from him.

 

Now personally I have encountered teachers that should not be given the time of day. Mostly because of deep narcissistic and insecure personalities. These are teachers to be avoided at all costs. But they do not reveal themselves at first...one must be so very cautious.

When that student is ready the master will appear. I say only if the Master has truly Mastered themselves, not in just discipline, but in their own spirituality and fearlessness. Not combative fearlessness, but social fearlessness, cultural fearlessness. When they choose a course of action outside of tradition or the ridicule of others.