When the student is ready, the teacher...wait...are you really ready?

[Taomeow]

I remember a quarrel that took place between an acquaintance of mine and his teacher. The acquaintance was about 60, the teacher, about 80. The student disapproved of something the teacher did -- not to him, in the larger world. The teacher took offense at the criticism. They parted company, lessons stopped. My acquaintance has forty years of taiji experience and is a formidable master in his own right. One would think, no big deal?

 

It was a huge deal. He was living against a background of misery over this chasm between him and the teacher. This was going on for a year or so. Then they graciously slipped into a reunion, and I think both not so much pretended that the chasm never happened but actually forgot all about it -- my acquaintance was surprised when I asked him a couple of years later and said, oh, that, well, that was nothing... but I remember very well that, far from being "nothing," it was the weight on his shoulders and the thought on his mind constantly while it was going on. I tried to imagine then how I would feel if I were shunned by my teacher for criticizing him, and I shuddered. I will never criticize him! Ever!

 

This tells me I'm ready... If a student does not see his or her teacher as beyond reproach, one of them is not ready -- or both.

[ChiDragon]

In this case, the teacher is more less ready. It was a matter of saving the face of the teacher....!!!

Edited December 28, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

This thread brings up an all-important question: Where does your motivation for practice come from? In Taoist terms, which shen, or organ-spirit, is in charge of the cultivation schedule. Or we might ask, in a more western psychological vein, which sub-personality governs this activity.

 

A group of students gathers to practice for one hour. One practices out of sheer joy; the practice comes naturally from the heart, and there´s nothing the student would rather be doing. Other students practice in a dry, mechanical --even robotic-- way out of a sense of obligation. Perhaps one has a parent who said she´d never amount to anything, and cultivation represents a way of proving that introjected voice wrong. Another hopes to numb out a sense of shame by cultivating super powers or extraordinary prowess in the bedroom. Yet another wants to learn to fight so he can confidently overpower another man in a street fight.

 

Although the practice time might be the same, the fruits of cultivation for these different students will vary. The source of motivation matters every bit as much as the absolute number of hours put in.

 

Liminal

 

Excellent points!

 

Of the five shens, I can usually see which ones drive someone's practice, and of course I know about mine. Po, my strongest shen, ignited it; zhi, which is in charge of sustaining it, is the weakest, but because I know it and she knows it, we're cultivating her too; yi helps tie the greater "me" and my mind with the practice, provides meanings and explanations; heart shen or lesser shen sustains the drive with a more steady, though less excitable, glow of loyalty and dedication when po, with its bursts of enthusiasm, runs out of fuel and takes a cat nap, which of course it's prone to; and hun manages my relationships with others -- teachers, students, peers and partners.

[Taomeow]

In this case, the teacher is more less ready. It was a matter of saving the face of the teacher....!!!

 

That teacher is reportedly quirky, unpredictable, impatient, almost cruel, and emotionally about 14. He's spent over 70 years cultivating his taoist skills though -- every day -- e.g. he goes to bed with sunset, gets up at 3 am and sits in meditation for 4 hours, then starts practicing taiji, for 8 hours straight, then reads the classics, writes, teaches, and nourishes his heart's desires by taking frequent trips to Singapore and Hong Kong where he's reportedly worshipped as an immortal. But you of course know better how he should live and when he will be ready.

[silent thunder]

I'm really off the whole teacher/student paradigm as I've experienced it up to now.

 

Been thinking about this often of late, can't seem to shake it even when I want to, which tells me something is growing.

 

Having been asked a few times to teach, I always decline, my pat response is "I'm not qualified"... that usually ends the discussion. I just can't imagine a scenario, where I would have any idea what is best or worse for... anyone. As I experience it now, learning isn't imparted by a teacher, it isn't a gift, nor is it a thing or a commodity that can be traded. For me, the real basis of learning is awareness and it doesn't come from any external sources. As I see it now, teaching does not exist and learning is really just the process of awareness.

 

I am no longer seeking any specific human teachers of specific paths. My only real teachers are and always have been, my breath and my heart. The rest are interpretations of thought sharing. Thoughts aren't real for me any longer. They aren't true, important, or even useful most of the time.

 

Oddly enough, I now find myself surrounded by teachers... life is so fucking awesome in this... by saying no to external teachers, I've opened up my awareness to discover I am learning from, potentially everything.

 

While wearing a vajra at work one day, a painter recognized it and asked me if I had a teacher.

I started pointing around the room and responded "yea, you, him, the floor, that pile of wood, the dust... everything." Through the breath and heart, instruction abounds from every possible source... along with the innate, direct experience and solid sense that there are no external sources.

[idiot_stimpy]

Reality itself is the teacher.

[Owledge]

That saying is problematic in that it is self-confirming. So you can never know whether it's actually trying to make you realize something or is just trying to look like deep wisdom.

As so many so-called philosophical things, it's mostly just an offer of a view on things that you can decide to adopt or reject. It's a tool for playing with yourself. You can shape it any way you want. It will always fit.

 

In more detail:

The student is ready for what? To listen? To succeed? To fail? Which was meant to happen? (Which is a pointless question.)

 

That quote is about as useful as "Things happen when they need to happen." It's koan-like.

Totally don't try to do what I just did, lol. (I'm only doing it because I've spent my time pondering on those things.)

[dwai]

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

 

I've been thinking lately to start this thread, on how a student can make themselves truly ready. People can add whatever they think is essential for an aspiring student to cultivate.

 

*****

 

Imagine a teacher appearing, but you lack the discipline to even practice what they have to teach...what an absolute waste! Yet that's a fact for many of us, if only we were aware of it.

 

So this is my first contribution to the thread: we need to actively cultivate discipline. Before the teacher even appears.

 

 

Most students don't know what a teacher will require, of course...but it could be that the teacher requires 25% of your waking life to be dedicated to practices, or in other words, 4 hours of practice each day...and that's apart from meeting your duties in life (which a true teacher will likely also insist upon).

 

If you're very busy in working life, I'd say take it somewhat easy on yourself, and spend a full 2 hours each day practicing.

 

The key to discipline is to not stray from what you set out to do. It's typical for people to resist discipline in their feelings...they take a day off now and then because practice doesn't feel right to do. I know this all too well. But if you want to cultivate discipline, then you have to do as planned, even if you feel like you don't want to. Those useless feelings are actually your enemies in your practices, although they feel like they are "yours" and are thus worthwhile to listen to.

 

Other things can come in between yourself and your practice of discipline. Like friends, family, etc. It can help to decide in the first place, that you will only interrupt your practice for the sake of something life (or career) threatening. So that means, if your friend wants some attention during practice time, you have to say that you'll talk to them later...no matter what. But if your friend is literally dying and only you can save them...then it's necessary to go do that. Or if you're going to be fired from your job for not showing up during that time, then show up.

 

Without true discipline, a teacher's energy goes to waste...and they might leave you, or not even show up at all in the first place, and just leave you in the "spiritual marketplace" (where basically no teachings are legitimate) to figure it out for yourself.

 

But the worst is if a teacher sticks with you, and yet you're inadequate...you don't attain the result...that is, I think, when we really learn the importance of cultivating discipline.

Having been a professional teacher in the past (albeit of technology), I must say that finding a good student isn't just about working hard. It is also about finding someone with aptitude and intelligence. I must have taught a few hundred students over the course of the three years I taught. Based on that and my personal experiences as a student, here are some types of students I categorized --

 

1. Students who feel entitled to the knowledge. Such students may or may not work hard towards learning it, but just take it for granted that since they paid the teacher (or the institution), they are entitled to all the knowledge of the teacher.
2. Students who really want to learn, but don't have an aptitude for the subject. Their motivations vary from "everyone is doing it, so I must too" to "I really want to learn it for x y or z purpose". These students usually work very hard and diligently (but not necessarily in a smart manner) and achieve certain degree of proficiency (but mastery eludes them). That said, sometimes aptitude comes with experience/age. So, if these students persevere, they might eventually gain some degree of mastery on their subject of study.
3. Students who have an aptitude for the subject, but don't want to invest time and effort in it. They are tangentially in category 1 (since they feel entitled to the knowledge). Such students may or may not be successful. Many of these are easily frustrated and might even give up on pursuing their study.
4. The reluctant student who was forced to take up the study (by an eager parent perhaps) - they seldom last.
5. Students who can empty their proverbial cups and really set about learning. These are serious students and are a rarity (at least in my experiences). They grasp the subject intuitively and are smart and methodical about how they approach the study (and practice).

As a teacher, I preferred category 2 or 5. These students remain etched in my memory as a teacher and I have remained in touch with them over the years still (In some cases). I think these categories might be applicable to all forms of study.

[dwai]

How about "when the teacher is ready, the student appears?"

I have found that this might be an apt statement. Teachers are human beings too and in general don't like to waste their energy. So, if a good student appears, it makes the process of investing and expending time and energy worthwhile, imho.

Edited December 30, 2014 by dwai

[Aetherous]

There seems to be tons of confusion and apprehension surrounding the word, "discipline".

To me, it can be summed up as: practicing correctly. To put it in more bum-like words...to be ready as a student, you must be willing to practice correctly. Perhaps forget about "discipline". If you're unwilling to practice correctly, or are willing but otherwise don't do it, then who in their right mind would consider you to be "ready"?

 

Obviously this is a requirement for achieving any kind of results. You practice incorrectly (not following instructions), and things go wrong, and you don't attain the advertised results...IF you attain anything, it's something other than what you were aiming for. So, doing it incorrectly is failure...obviously this includes being intelligent enough to understand what to do. Who in their right mind would advocate for a person to "work harder but not smarter" (in the correct and effective way)? The whole purpose is attaining the result...not to look busy while actually accomplishing nothing.

 

If you practice correctly but only a few times, and not at all regularly, then you fall short of success. So practicing is essential...it is the most essential thing. To not practice, is to not attain. But to do it incorrectly of course is not what's being talked about here. To practice incorrectly is to not be practicing at all...because if you were truly practicing, you'd be doing it right.

It's not up for negotiation or debate...a student must have discipline (as explained here...we must practice) in order to be ready. If we lack this and make up excuses, we are not ready. I say this as someone who knows they aren't ready, due to making up excuses for not practicing. It's good to be clear about what we need to work on, in order to "cultivate"...if we think it's all good and we have nothing to work on, then we're not cultivating.

*****

The second basic that I think all aspiring students of any field of study should have, is the ability to calm the mind.

It literally benefits you in every endeavor possible. For some paths, it's considered indispensable, or a first necessary step. I think raja yoga considers it the only step.

But for fields of learning that don't require meditation, for instance if you're studying to be an architect or something...it still helps you. All people are helped by calming their minds. It helps us think better, have better emotions, deal with people better, have better health, etc. I think it even changes our brain so we are more capable of doing what we do, better. Smarter, faster, stronger.

To relate calming the mind to the first essential, discipline...if you don't want to practice, that shows your mind isn't calm. In that situation, it will benefit you to calm the mind first, and not have such an aversion to practicing...then you can get on with whatever your discipline is.

The discipline itself can be the practice of calming the mind. At times you will want to skip doing it...but the practice itself will mitigate the negative effects of "forcing yourself"...so you won't be practicing in a "forceful" or "robotic" way, as is assumed when the word "discipline" is mentioned. Those are just states of mind, and by practicing this, you calm them. Problem solved.

An easy way to calm the mind, is to either be outside where you can look at nature, or to have an indoor plant that you like. Or it can be anything that you choose to focus on. Set a timer for a minimum of 10 minutes, and look at the object you choose. Take it in, by noticing things about it. For instance, if it's a plant, you could simply notice the particular hue of green it is. If you become aware that you're not taking it in and noticing it, then go back to doing that.

There are other ways, but this works well, and Buddhists would call it "calm abiding with an impure external support". Impure, meaning not a representation of an enlightened being, such as a Buddha statue.

*****

My third and final thought for becoming ready, is physical health...

There's a lot of false information about this subject.

What can truly be relied upon are these 3 things:
1) Getting some form of moderate exercise each day is important.

2) Getting a full night's sleep is important.
3) Eating so that you feel normal is important.

So, lets say you're exercising way too intensely...eating an abnormal diet that makes you feel kind of loopy because it consists only of wheatgrass shots...and cutting back on sleep to 5 hours because you're busy. Your physical health is suffering! Or lets say you're not exercising whatsoever, just Netflix binging, you're stuffing yourself with really cheesy food that makes you feel exhausted and sluggish afterward, and staying up super late which has the side effect of lessening the hours you sleep. Once again, your physical health will be suffering.

 

So physical health can be summed up as: be moderate in sleep, diet, and exercise.

 

If an aspiring student lacks physical health, sometimes their energy or meditation practices will have disastrous results. Sometimes they won't even be capable of practicing certain things, due to the condition of their body. So to be "ready" for what a teacher would ask of you, you need to be normal. Not for all fields of study, but for some...perhaps one that you will one day aspire to.

 

*****

So these are my 3 basics of being a ready student, which I personally strive to perfect. Because mastery is mostly about doing the basics really well.

 

1) Practicing correctly (aka having "discipline").
2) Calming the mind often.
3) Having decent physical health.

Working on these sets up a good foundation for further things to work on. If a person can't take care of these, then how could they take care of something that's even more challenging? And these are prerequisites in many schools or fields of study.

I look forward to seeing what others think are essentials for making ourselves "ready".

[Ya Mu]

 

There seems to be tons of confusion and apprehension surrounding the word, "discipline".

 

To me, it can be summed up as: practicing correctly. To put it in more bum-like words...to be ready as a student, you must be willing to practice correctly. Perhaps forget about "discipline". If you're unwilling to practice correctly, or are willing but otherwise don't do it, then who in their right mind would consider you to be "ready"?

 

Obviously this is a requirement for achieving any kind of results. You practice incorrectly (not following instructions), and things go wrong, and you don't attain the advertised results...IF you attain anything, it's something other than what you were aiming for. So, doing it incorrectly is failure...obviously this includes being intelligent enough to understand what to do. Who in their right mind would advocate for a person to "work harder but not smarter" (in the correct and effective way)? The whole purpose is attaining the result...not to look busy while actually accomplishing nothing.

 

If you practice correctly but only a few times, and not at all regularly, then you fall short of success. So practicing is essential...it is the most essential thing. To not practice, is to not attain. But to do it incorrectly of course is not what's being talked about here. To practice incorrectly is to not be practicing at all...because if you were truly practicing, you'd be doing it right.

 

It's not up for negotiation or debate...a student must have discipline (as explained here...we must practice) in order to be ready. If we lack this and make up excuses, we are not ready. I say this as someone who knows they aren't ready, due to making up excuses for not practicing. It's good to be clear about what we need to work on, in order to "cultivate"...if we think it's all good and we have nothing to work on, then we're not cultivating.

 

*****

 

The second basic that I think all aspiring students of any field of study should have, is the ability to calm the mind.

 

It literally benefits you in every endeavor possible. For some paths, it's considered indispensable, or a first necessary step. I think raja yoga considers it the only step.

 

But for fields of learning that don't require meditation, for instance if you're studying to be an architect or something...it still helps you. All people are helped by calming their minds. It helps us think better, have better emotions, deal with people better, have better health, etc. I think it even changes our brain so we are more capable of doing what we do, better. Smarter, faster, stronger.

 

To relate calming the mind to the first essential, discipline...if you don't want to practice, that shows your mind isn't calm. In that situation, it will benefit you to calm the mind first, and not have such an aversion to practicing...then you can get on with whatever your discipline is.

 

The discipline itself can be the practice of calming the mind. At times you will want to skip doing it...but the practice itself will mitigate the negative effects of "forcing yourself"...so you won't be practicing in a "forceful" or "robotic" way, as is assumed when the word "discipline" is mentioned. Those are just states of mind, and by practicing this, you calm them. Problem solved.

 

....

 

Good post.

[silent thunder]

personally... I've never seen antagonism and condescension as desired qualities in a teacher.

 

perhaps, 'when the teacher is ready, then they can try to become a student' should be the saying.

[Spotless]

If you have a body you are a student.

 

The patterns lit-up in your space gravitate to their understanding that you may master and transcend them. Their karma will unfold them whether you actively seek or not.

 

When you actively seek to transcend patterns and proclivities then you become what you have embodied in your subject heading and at that point your teachers will appear in many forms - often unknown to you -.often fought against - frequently dismissed. But as long as you are actively seeking this transcendence then with increasing frequency, intensity and quality - pressures and teaching will come to bare on you. You will be under less laws of accident.

 

A great teacher is within you and it will recognize your readiness. A simple teaching and diligent practice will require little from the physical teachers you contact but a great teaching with a good sized group of students is an invaluable energy to interact with.

 

The older proven teachings are simply better for the most part - if you are willing and able to actually work regularly even 1 hour a day you are already far beyond most students and would be a cherished light to any teacher.

 

The big problem with most "new" students is baggage and the light testing methods - they come in as a ball of noise and continue their intake of noise making activities and discordant practices and going with what they "know". It is like working with a frozen bag of bones, a boneheadedness and someone who is mostly deaf.

 

In a larger group setting one can settle faster and hear sooner and hide less (hide less from oneself).

 

A simple teacher can be the best teacher - they always are - but simple does not me they are not bright in every sense of the word.

A great teacher will spot the lights immediately but the great student may not see the great teacher through the simple form and may laugh or belittle.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Spotless

[Yae]

Lets take old style martial arts training for example (only because it's an easy example in this case). Does the student want to get up at 4 am, when it's cold outside of the blanket, and when they're exhausted and could get some rest and be healthier...and go monotonously lift sandbags for an hour, or whatever grueling training it is?

 

Are they getting out of bed with "joy and amusement"? NO. Perhaps what gets them out of bed is dedication to their path, because they ultimately love it more than anything else...but it's not like they want to train in that moment.

 

LOL'd literally just now because I would love to that! Hahaha. But the discipline to do 2 hours of SFQ active exercises daily doesn't come as easily for me.

[Aetherous]

LOL'd literally just now because I would love to that! Hahaha. But the discipline to do 2 hours of SFQ active exercises daily doesn't come as easily for me.

 

Same here, lol.

[Yae]

"Discourse 12: The Way of Sages

 

[5a] To enter the way of sages, you must develop determination for many years, amassing

accomplishments and binding yourself to practice. Only an adept of elevated illumination, an

individual with excelling realization, can enter the way of sages."

 

I came across this snippet in The Way of Complete Perfection- A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology by Louis Komjathy.

 

It speaks to my personal experience of how discipline might work. Like, you build up enough experiences over time that nudge you in a certain direction, for me it's mostly finding more and more things too unfulfilling and fleeting, combined maybe with my belief in and some very clearly valid experience with mystical truth (I can go into detail if someone doubts that, I'll very easily make you believe it too)

and desire for answers to this confusing existence, then eventually there's enough momentum and you do it, and then have to remind yourself again why to do it, but then it's something slightly different but with the same goal but a more refined approach, and then... Hah that's where I am now, the concept is unfinished for me. Maybe it'll finally be finished once it finishes the reincarnation cycle and reunites with the Tao. ugh.