The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[dawei]

Interesting to re-visit ZZ... but, as Rene points out, the verbosity shows and one could find many, many chapters in LZ which would suggest the same points.

[Marblehead]

Well, if you look at my post count you will see that I follow the ways of Chuang Tzu, not Lao Tzu.

[Bubbles]

In the Beginning Of Beginnings

 

In the Beginning of Beginnings there was Void, the Nameless. This Nameless was One, without Body, without Form. This One, this thing in whom all find power to exist, is Tao. Within Tao is the Life Force. This Life Force is the Formless, the Undivided, the Spirit. (The Spirit, the Life Force of Tao, is universal; the Soul is individual.)

 

 

 

 

Hi Marblehead,

 

It would be interesting if you could explain a little the relationship between the Spirit (universal) and the Soul (individual). And how this fits into your materialism viewpoint.

 

Don't respond here if you find it derails the thread.

 

Thanks!

[Marblehead]

At least half of my posts derail a thread so derailing one of my threads would be fitting.

 

Yes, I, a materialist, can speak of soul and spirit. However, I do define how I use these two words. For me, Soul, as mentioned above, is individual; our unconscious mind. Spirit basically is Chi (the energy of the universe). But there are two aspects of Chi: Individual and universal. Our personal Chi, or energy, or spirit, is limited as to how far it can radiate outward. Universal Chi permeates all things (and non-things) in the universe.

 

For those who like to talk about our interconnectedness, this is how this interconnectedness happens. Remembering that Chi energy has a positive (Yang) and negative (Yin) polarity, this energy is rarely balanced, it will be stronger Yang or stronger Yin. Universal Chi interacts with our individual Chi and this is from where the changes in our mood comes from when there is no other identifiable cause. So any area in the universe where Chi is not in balance will effect all objects (and life forms) in that area.

 

The reference to the "Life Force" is based in the idea that Chi is what gives life and when life ends it is because Chi has left the body.

[Marblehead]

In The Tao There Is Reality

In the Tao there is reality and efficacy, but it neither acts nor has form; you can receive it, but not grasp it; you can perceive it, but not see it. It is trunk and root in itself. Before the Universe, Heaven and Earth existed, it had existed for all eternity. It gave life to the Universe, Heaven, Earth and all living things.

[Marblehead]

Then Lao Tzu said:

 

One Must Strip Oneself Of Passion

Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion
In order to see the Secret of Life;
Othertimes, one regards life with passion
In order to see its Manifest Forms.

These two, the Secret and its Manifest Forms,
Are in their nature the same;
It is given different names
when it becomes manifest.

These two together emerge;
They have different names yet they are the same;
That which is even more profound than the profound;
The gateway of all subtleties.

(Here then is the distinction between that which we have named Tao, the Secret, that which cannot be spoken of, and that which can be spoken of, Tao’s Manifest Forms.)

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

The Seen And The Unseen

Unseen is the name I give to the origin of the Universe, Heaven, Earth and the Ten Thousand Things. Seen is the name I give to the Universe, Heaven, Earth and the Ten Thousand Things. Hence, unseen, in its mode of non-being, we will see its mysteries. Seen, in its mode of being, we will see its manifestations.

[ChiDragon]

Ahhhh....
The Seen and Unseen. It sounds familiar. The Visible(有) and the Invisible(無).

[Marblehead]

No one should wonder anymore of where I got my "Mystery" and "Manifest".

[ChiDragon]

The "Manifest" is more direct toward the "Seen" or "Visible".
The "Mystery" is rather indirect toward the "Unseen" or "Invisible".

Do you have a better term than "Mystery" for more direct toward the "Unseen" or "Invisible".....???

Edited January 7, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Do you have a better term than "Mystery" for more direct toward the "Unseen" or "Invisible".....???

Well, I do sometimes use the word "potential" but too often people try to "understand" this term and that is like speaking of the Tao that cannot be spoken to. If asked, I can get away with saying "I don't know. It's a mystery." when asked to define Mystery.

[ChiDragon]

Well, I do sometimes use the word "potential" but too often people try to "understand" this term and that is like speaking of the Tao that cannot be spoken to. If asked, I can get away with saying "I don't know. It's a mystery." when asked to define Mystery.

haha...

I see that you are linguistically covered is your only way out. You sneaky guy......you......

 

[Marblehead]

haha...

I see that you are linguistically covered is your only way out. You sneaky guy......you......

 

Yeah, I know how to CYA.

[Marblehead]

Starlight And Non-Being

Starlight asked Non-Being, “Master, are you? Or are you not?” Since he received no answer whatever, Starlight set himself to watch for Non-Being. He waited to see if Non-Being would put in an appearance.

He kept his gaze fixed on the Deep Void, hoping to catch a glimpse of Non-Being.

All day long he looked, and he saw nothing. He listened, but heard nothing. He reached out to grasp, and touched nothing.

Then Starlight exclaimed at last, “That is it! This is the highest limit! Who can attain to such ultimate height? I can comprehend the absence of Being but who can comprehend the absence of Non-Being? I can be conscious of not-being since all that is not this (myself) and not that (all other things) must be Non-Being (nothing).”

[Marblehead]

What Knowledge Cannot Know

All things come to life, but we cannot see their prime source. All things appear but we cannot see the gate from which they come. All men value the knowledge of what they know. Only those who fall back upon what knowledge cannot know really know. Is this not a great problem? One must leave it alone and yet one cannot go anywhere without meeting it.

[Marblehead]

The Tao Which Can Be Discussed Is Not Tao

Looked at, it is without form. Listened to, it is without noise. Reached for, it cannot be touched. Men call this the dark and the fathomless. Therefore, the Tao that can be discussed is not Tao.

[ChiDragon]

The Tao Which Can Be Discussed Is Not Tao

 

Looked at, it is without form. Listened to, it is without noise. Reached for, it cannot be touched. Men call this the dark and the fathomless. Therefore, the Tao that can be discussed is not Tao.

 

Aren't all discussing Tao, here, in TTB......???

 

I would say that.....

Tao which cannot be discussed is not Tao;

Tao can be spoken with one word is not Tao; but Tao is just one word.

However, if one understands this one word, then it is all Tao.

Edited January 10, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Aren't all discussing Tao, here, in TTB......???

 

I would say that.....

Tao which cannot be discussed is not Tao;

Tao can be spoken with one word is not Tao; but Tao is just one word.

However, if one understands this one word, then it is all Tao.

No. We her are discussing Te. And sometimes we discuss some of the characteristics of Tao (the Way of Tao).

 

But to talk about something we cannot see, hear, touch, taste or smell? No, I don't thing we are doing that.

[rene]

(the) Tao (that) can be spoken with one word is not Tao;

but Tao is just one word.

However, if one understands this one word,

then it is all Tao.

[ChiDragon]

No. We her are discussing Te. And sometimes we discuss some of the characteristics of Tao (the Way of Tao).

 

But to talk about something we cannot see, hear, touch, taste or smell? No, I don't thing we are doing that.

Okay....MH

If there was no Tao(道), then, there is no Te(德) to be talked about.

If the Te of Tao is the Virtue of Tao, then, where is the Te(virtue) came from with the absence of Tao....???

 

When Tao is always invisible(常無), one grok its quale.

Edited January 10, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

 

My compliment to you too.

[Marblehead]

Okay....MH

If there was no Tao(道), then, there is no Te(德) to be talked about.

If the Te of Tao is the Virtue of Tao, then, where is the Te(virtue) came from with the absence of Tao....???

 

When Tao is always invisible(常無), one grok its quale.

You are just trying to confuse me with that.

[ChiDragon]

But to talk about something we cannot see, hear, touch, taste or smell?

 

This is only the Wu(無) side of Tao. Are you ignoring the You(有) side of Tao....???

Edited January 10, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

This is only the Wu(無) side of Tao. Are you ignoring the You(有) side of Tao....???

What? You suggest that I, the prime Materialist here, am ignoring the material universe? I think we are having different discussions with each other.

[Marblehead]

On Knowing

Seek not to know all the answers but rather to understand the questions.

 

 

 

(This did not come from Chuang Tzu. It is actually from one of the "Kung Fu" programs.)

Edited January 11, 2015 by Marblehead