The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu paused to take a breath and Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Secret And Its Manifest Forms

The Secret and its Manifest Forms
May both be called the Cosmic Mystery;
Reaching from the Mystery
Into the Deeper Mystery.
It is the Gate to the Secret of all Life.

Thus, when man is able to rid himself of passions,
To give up pleasure, and to purify his insides,
Then the Spirit can dwell peacefully within him.

Therefore,
Those constantly without desires,
Will perceive the Secret’s subtlety.

Those constantly with desires,
Will see only that which they yearn for and seek;
Tao’s manifest forms.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied (you knew he would):

 

 

The Gate To The Secret Of All Life

Tao existed before time began; Tao is non-being and yet when Tao manifests itself it has substance. Time began when Tao manifested itself. Time represents the changes in the manifestations of Tao. Tao has substance but is not confined in space; it has length, but is not confined in distance. Having substance and yet being not confined; having length and yet being without source. And so there is appearance and disappearance, life and death. To appear and disappear without showing its form; that is the Gate to the Secret of all Life. The Gate to the Secret of all Life signifies the return to the state of non-being. All things come from and return to non-being.

[rene]

that just shows you how wrong he was

and your rendition of laozi's thought also misses the point

laozi was both, not either/or, as your quote suggests

seems a materialist guy like you would know that by now...

or not.

 

perpetual imo applied

kind regards

 

(sorry for the drive-by shot; i'm headed off-line for a while but could not let that pass untweaked.)

[Marblehead]

that just shows you how wrong he was

But by who's standards was he wrong? Hehehe.

 

and your rendition of laozi's thought also misses the point

laozi was both, not either/or, as your quote suggests

But Lao Tzu didn't express the state of "wu", only "yo".

 

Chuang Tzu was able to express both.

 

seems a materialist guy like you would know that by now...

or not.

But I can' know what can't be known.

 

(sorry for the drive-by shot; i'm headed off-line for a while but could not let that pass untweaked.)

Yeah, I'll forgive you. I always do.

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu replied:

 

 

Tao Is Like An Abyss

Tao is empty;
Yet when you use it,
You never need refill it;
Like an abyss,
It is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things!

Tao is like a hollow vessel,
And its use is inexhaustible!

Fathomless!
It is the fountain head of all things.
It files down sharp edges;
Unties the tangles;
Softens the glare;
And settles the dust.

With its sharp edges rounded,
Its tangles untied,
Its light tempered,
Its turmoil submerged,
Yet dark and unseen it remains.

Submerged!
An image of what existed before the Universe,
Heaven and Earth were formed.

Imperceptible, indiscernible!
It holds within it the Images.

Indistinct, incomprehensible!
It holds within it the Beings.

Obscure, dark!
It holds within it the Spiritual Essences.
These essences are perfectly pure.

Throughout time its name has never left it,
For from it issued the Mothers
Of each species of being in the world.

[ChiDragon]

But Lao Tzu didn't express the state of "wu", only "yo".

It was be because no one has read Chapter One correctly. Lao Zi had introduced Wu(無) and You(有) in Chapter One and explicitly expressed throughout the TTC. All ZZ's ideas were derived from LZ.

[Brian]

But by who's standards was he wrong? Hehehe.

<snip>

My standard is the only one which matters.

 

Duh...

[Marblehead]

It was be because no one has read Chapter One correctly. Lao Zi had introduced Wu(無) and You(有) in Chapter One and explicitly expressed throughout the TTC. All ZZ's ideas were derived from LZ.

While what you say is true I think it is also true that Lao Tzu never went searching for the state of wu. He says that it exists but you can't touch, see, hear, taste, or smell it.

 

But true, Lao Tzu introduces the concept of wu in Chapter 1.

 

But then Chaung Tzu found the state of wu.

[ChiDragon]

 

But then Chaung Tzu found the state of wu.

 

 

Great! but how?

[ChiDragon]

On Knowing

Seek not to know all the answers but rather to understand the questions.

(This did not come from Chuang Tzu. It is actually from one of the "Kung Fu" programs.)

 

Then, where do you think that the philosophy in the Kung Fu programs came from...???

[Marblehead]

Great! but how?

I guess you are just going to have to read the Chuang Tzu again. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

 

Then, where do you think that the philosophy in the Kung Fu programs came from...???

That series included Buddhist as well as Taoist philosophy. America didn't really have a cultural philosophy during that time.

 

I wish I could say it came from Chuang Tzu but I can't.

[rene]

While what you say is true I think it is also true that Lao Tzu never went searching for the state of wu. He says that it exists but you can't touch, see, hear, taste, or smell it.

 

But true, Lao Tzu introduces the concept of wu in Chapter 1.

 

But then Chaung Tzu found the state of wu.

 

Why would Laozi search? Not possible to 'find' something that isn't missing in the first place.

[dawei]

Why would Laozi search? Not possible to 'find' something that isn't missing in the first place.

 

I think that is what MH is saying... LZ points it out but doesn't really dwell on it as much as he wants to emphasize living/life...

 

We should also remember that Wang Bi really introduces the 'mystery' and metaphysical aspects much more than any previous interpreter. Lest we forget, he was a very young Confucian

[ChiDragon]

That series included Buddhist as well as Taoist philosophy. America didn't really have a cultural philosophy during that time.

 

I wish I could say it came from Chuang Tzu but I can't.

Year, but the Kung Fu series was written by a China man called Bruce Lee who has a BA degree in Philosophy.

Edited January 15, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Why would Laozi search? Not possible to 'find' something that isn't missing in the first place.

I am unable to answer that question. All I can say is that Chuang Tzu did search for answers to the questions common people had. Lao Tzu spoke to the person who would rule the world.

 

That is why I have said before that I really couldn't get a handle on Taoist Philosophy until after I read the Chuang Tzu.

 

Sure, Chuang Tzu knew there was nothing missing. But he searched to understand and share his understanding through made-up stories that represented real life. Lao Tzu's life wasn't real to me.

[Marblehead]

Year, but the Kung Fu series was written by a China man called Bruce Lee.

Do your research.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(TV_series)#Bruce_Lee.27s_involvement

[dawei]

Do your research.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(TV_series)#Bruce_Lee.27s_involvement

 

Yes... that is one of the great myths/lies which lives on

[ChiDragon]

Do your research.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(TV_series)#Bruce_Lee.27s_involvement

You lost me by throwing out piece by piece without a direct answer as usual. My double headed snake......

Are we talking about Kung Fu or the serious.....???

[Marblehead]

You lost me by throwing out piece by piece without a direct answer as usual. My double headed snake......

Are we talking about Kung Fu or the serious.....???

Hehehe. You are not paying attention again. I was talking about the TV Series. The quote I posted above was from one of the shows. The quote likely came from, who knows where? Kung Fu has its roots in Chinese/Buddhist Martial Arts. Yes, I would agree that Bruce was the ultimate in the art of Kung Fu.

 

But Lao Tzu was the ultimate in the art of the paradox.

 

Chuang Tzu was a great story-teller.

 

The Father and the Son. Tao is the Mother (of all things).

[Marblehead]

After a short break for off topic discussion Chuang Tzu replied to Lao Tzu:

 

 

Tao Is Like The Sea

“We have a little time today,” said the disciple to the Sage. “May I ask what is the great Tao?”

The Sage replied, “Give a ceremonial bath to your mind! Cleanse your soul! Throw away your material wisdom! Tao is dark and elusive, impossible to describe. However, I will outline it for you.

“Light comes from darkness, and the predictables come from the formless. Life energy comes from Tao. Life energy and form combine and produce all living things. All things of creation are given different life energy and therefore evolve into different forms. Life springs into existence without a visible source and disappears into infinity. It stands in the middle of a vast expanse, without visible exit, entrance or shelter.

“He who follows Tao is strong of body, clear of mind and sharp of sight and hearing. He does not clutter up his mind with worries, and is flexible in his adjustment to external conditions. The Heaven cannot help being high, the Earth cannot help being wide, the sun and the moon cannot help being what they are, and all things of the creation cannot help but live, grow and die. Perhaps this is Tao.

“Besides, the learned is not necessarily wise, and the good talker is not necessarily clever. The Sage eschews these things. But that which is added to and does not increase, is taken away from and does not decrease; that is what the Sage is anxious to preserve. Fathomless, it is like the sea. Awe-inspiring, the cycle begins again when it ends. It sustains all creation and is never exhausted. In comparison with this, the teachings of the gentlemen deal with the superficial externals. What gives life to all creation and is itself inexhaustible; that is Tao.”

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu thought for a moment then said:

 

 

The Tao Floats And Drifts

The Tao floats and drifts;
It can go left or right.

Like a flood,
It may go up or down;
The Great Tao flows everywhere.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Tao Is Everywhere

At its greatest, Tao is infinite; at its smallest, there is nothing so small but Tao is in it. That is how the Ten Thousand Things come. It is so big that it encompasses everything. Deep like the sea, it cannot be fathomed.

The greatest reaches of space do not leave its confines, and the smallest down of a bird in autumn awaits its power to assume form.

[Marblehead]

Where Is Tao?

The disciple asked the Sage, “Show me where the Tao is found.”

The Sage replied, “There is nowhere it is not to be found.”

The former insisted, “Show me at least some definite place where Tao is found.”

“It is in the ant,” said the Sage.

“Is it in some lesser being?”

“It is in the weeds.”

“Can you go further down the scale of things?”

“It is in this piece of tile.”

“Further?”

“It is in this turd.”

At this the disciple had nothing more to say.

But the Sage continued, “None of your questions are to the point. They are like the questions of inspectors in the market, testing the weight of pigs by prodding them in their thinnest parts. Why look for Tao by going ‘down the scale of being’ as if that which we call ‘least’ had less of Tao? Tao is great in all things, complete in all, universal in all, whole in all. These three aspects are distinct, but the Reality is One.

“Therefore come with me to the land of Nowhere where all the many things are One. There at last we might speak of what has no limitation and no end. Come with me to the land of Non-Doing. What shall we there say; that Tao is simplicity, stillness, indifference, purity, harmony and ease? All these names leave me indifferent for their distinctions have disappeared. If it is nowhere, how should I be aware of it? My will is aimless there. If it goes and returns, I know not where it has been. If it wanders here then there, I know not where it will end. The mind remains undetermined in the Great Void. Here the highest knowledge is boundless. That which gives things their thusness cannot be delimited by things. So when we speak of ‘limits,’ we remain confined to limited things. The limits of capacity are called ‘fullness’ and ‘emptiness’. Tao is the source of both. But it is itself neither fullness nor emptiness. Tao produces both renewal and decay, but is neither renewal or decay. It causes being and non-being; beginning and end. Tao assembles and it destroys, but it is neither the Totality nor the Void.”

[Marblehead]

How Deep Is Tao!

My Master said, “Tao, how deep, how still its hiding place! Tao, how pure! Without this stillness, metal would not ring, stone, when struck, would give no answer. The power of sound is in the metal and Tao is in all things. When they clash, they ring with Tao, and are silent again. Who is there now to tell all things their places?”