The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I am unable to answer that question. All I can say is that Chuang Tzu did search for answers to the questions common people had. Lao Tzu spoke to the person who would rule the world.

 

That is why I have said before that I really couldn't get a handle on Taoist Philosophy until after I read the Chuang Tzu.

 

Sure, Chuang Tzu knew there was nothing missing. But he searched to understand and share his understanding through made-up stories that represented real life. Lao Tzu's life wasn't real to me.

This struck a chord with me, thanks!

I didnt read CT until after a decade of periodically studying the TTC and to me the two clashed a lot, but later on levelled out. This thread is giving me a lot of new takes on the two together and i'm liking this Dialogues rendition MH!

Lao Tzu doesnt feel real no but he's bending himself out of shape even trying to explain what he sees, never mind that people have been misquoting him for thousands of years with the "but Daddy said...", and i think that if he was real he really was torn between not wanting to put the words down and seeing the necessity of answering the questions, out of respect to the asker. But i romanticize a lot so thats just me.

 

Here follows a personal reflection, never mind.

I think the recipient is the same person still, but as has been said, they approach the issue differently.

Lao Tzu spoke to the king yes, but i'm still sure he was also making fun of peoples lack of ability in getting over oneself. But if you're a true person or walk the path true you're more of a king or a queen than royals. And actually so is everyone else, only being more irresponsible in their rule, thinking there is reason and coherence to be found in the ways of existance. His irony comes from his "detachment" (for lack of a better word).

So he speaks to those who rule, to those of us who claim to be rulers and those of us who think we are above thinking of ourselves as kings and queens. He has the patience of a parent and laughs behind his moustasche because he cant help it, we appear as well meaning but silly, but we listen and he's giving us huuuuge amounts of face by calling us rulers and if we really listen this humbles us and we allow him to poke a little fun at us.

Chuang Tzu tries to level with us, speak clarly, he's the older sibling, he knows the arrogance of kings already and it vexes him, but still he tries and we appreciate his effort. He gives us face and respect in an intimate context. He's not impressed nor does he wish to be. We asked a question and he wants to answer, be too cannot resist the temptation of jest, but his jest is more frustrated because he still feels a little powerless in the face of injustice. It's just part of his nature.

 

But they still speak to us younger family members, the would be and factual emperors of existance. Thats how i feel. I dont get even half and half the time i feel like i'm eavesdropping on a conversation when i read any of them. I'm there and being given huge amounts of respect for showing up and i deserve nothing of it and i cant begin to grasp. "It's okay, no rush" i tell myself, but have a hard time listening to that advice.

[Marblehead]

Nice views. Thanks for sharing.

[Marblehead]

After a moment of silence Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Universe Is Everlasting

How the Universe is like a bellows!

Empty, yet it gives a supply that never fails;
The more it is worked, the more it brings forth.

The Universe is everlasting!

The reason the Universe is everlasting
Is that it does not live for itself;
It gives life to others through its transformations,
Therefore it is everlasting.

Heaven endures;
Earth lasts a long time.

The reason why Heaven and Earth
Can endure and last a long time
Is that they do not live for themselves;
They give life to others through their transformations,
Therefore they can long endure.

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Tao Is Like A Bellows

The Sage says, “Tao is deep and profound in its state of rest, crystal clear like a pond. Mightily it springs into life, suddenly it moves, and all creation follows. Looked at, it is dark. Listened to, it is noiseless. But in that darkness there appears a light; and in the silence, a harmony is heard.

“The space between Heaven and Earth is like a bellows. It is empty, but gives a supply that never fails. When it is in motion, it never stops producing.

“To be poured into without becoming full, and to pour out without becoming empty, without knowing how this comes about; this is the art of Preserving the Light.”

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Highest Good Is Like Water

The Tao’s presence in the world
Is like the relationship of small valley streams
To rivers and seas.

It may be compared to rivers
That seek repose in the sea.

The highest good is like water.

Water is good at benefiting the Ten Thousand Things
And yet it does not compete with them.

It is only because it does not compete,
That therefore it is without fault.

Because it never contends,
It never goes amiss,
Therefore it is close to the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Water As The Symbol Of Heavenly Virtue

“A man cannot see his own image in flowing water but sees it in water that is at rest. Only that which remains at rest itself can become the resting-place for all those who wish to seek rest.”

When the body is kept bustling about without stop, it becomes fatigued. When the mind is overworked without stop, it becomes worried, and worry causes exhaustion. The nature of water is that it becomes clear when left alone and becomes still when undisturbed. It is the symbol of Heavenly Virtue.

Calm represents the nature of water at its best. In that it may serve as our model, for its power is preserved and is not dispersed through agitation.

[Marblehead]

And with so much talk about water the two paused to gaze out upon the waters of the river to watch the fish enjoying themselves.

 

Silence.

 

Eventually Lao Tzu turned back to face Chuang Tzu and said:

 

 

There Was A Beginning

There was something which existed before
The Universe, Heaven and Earth were born.

Quiet and still!
Pure and deep!

Silent, isolated,
Standing alone,
Changing not,
Eternally revolving without fail,
It stands on its own and does not change.

Its name is not yet known.

It is “styled” “the Tao”.

Were I forced to give it a name,
I would call it “the Great”.

Being great implies reaching out,
Reaching out implies
Reversion to the original point.

It can be regarded as the Mother of all things.

From the Mother,
We may know her sons.

After knowing her sons
You must return and keep to the Mother.

Thus till the end of your life you will suffer no harm.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu quickly responded with:

 

 

The Mystery Of The Universe

Is the sky revolving around?  Is the Earth remaining still?  Are the sun and the moon competing for their places?  Who manages them?  Who holds them in control?  Who has nothing to do and is making these things move?  Is it perhaps that there is a mechanism so that the Heavenly bodies cannot help themselves?  Is it perhaps that they continue to revolve and cannot stop themselves?  Clouds become rain, and rain becomes clouds.  Who makes them rise and come down?  Who has nothing to do and is urging them to do so?  The wind rises from the north; it blows east and west, and there is a steady blowing in the stratosphere.  Who is sucking and blowing it alternately?  Who has nothing to do and is shaking it about like this?
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Heaven Cannot Help Being High

“The Heaven cannot help being high, the Earth cannot help being wide.  The sun and the moon cannot help being what they are, and all things of creation cannot help but live, grow and die.  Perhaps this is Tao.”
 

[Marblehead]

And continued further:

 

 

Tao Is Not Regarded As Old

While speaking of Tao to one of his disciples the Sage said, “Existing before the Universe, Heaven and Earth, it is not regarded as long ago; being older than the primeval beginnings, it is not regarded as old.”

“Can you then just call it Tao?” asked the disciple.

“No,” replied the Sage.  “We speak of ‘The Ten Thousand Things’ of the creation, although we know that there are more than ten thousand of them.  Because the number is so great, we just call it ‘The Ten Thousand’.  The Universe, Heaven and Earth are the great in form.  The Yin and Yang are the great in force.  Tao is the source of both.  We merely give Tao the name “Great” because of its greatness.  But with a given name, it should not be compared with the names of things.  One cannot go on and argue that Tao is something by that name, as we say that dogs and horses are animals by those names.  For that would be far off the mark.”

“Within the four points of the compass and above and below, how do the Ten Thousand Things take their rise?”  asked the disciple.

“Yin and Yang act on one another, affect one another and keep one another in place.  The four seasons follow one another in succession, interrelated in their coming and going.  Hence arise likes and dislikes, and choices and preferences. Peace and chaos follow one another; fortune breeds misfortune and vice versa.  The slow and the quick rub against each other and things are formed and disperse.  These are some of the things that we can say about material things and some of the subtle principles that we can put down.  All order is born of a principle, and all rise and decay are interrelated.  When something reaches a limit it reverses its direction; when the end is reached, the beginning begins.  This is all that is evidenced by the material world, all that we know and all that we can say.  And after all, our knowledge does not extend beyond the material Universe.  He who observes the working of Tao does not try to follow a thing to its very end, nor trace it to its very source.  There all discussion ends.”
 

[Marblehead]

And without even taking a breath Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Complete, Entire And All

The three, Complete, Entire and All differ in name, but are the same in reality.  They all indicate the One.  Once they roamed about together in the Palace of Nowhere.  Did they get together to discuss things and never come to an end?  Did they go about doing nothing together, and remain mellow and quiet, and indifferent and free?  Did they get along well and spend their idle hours together?

Free and unfettered is my mind, it reaches out and does not know where it reaches; it returns and does not know where it has been.  My mind goes back and forth and does not know where it all ends.  It loiters in the sphere of the Great Void, where it enters but does not know where it leads to.  To realize that matter is matter is to reach the infinite.  Take the phenomena of rise and fall, growth and decay; it does not regard rise and fall as rise and fall, and it does not regard growth and decay as growth and decay.  It does not regard beginning and end as beginning and end.  It does not regard formation and dispersion as formation and dispersion.
 

[Marblehead]

And furthermore, Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

Things Exist Naturally

The Universe is the general name for all things.  All things are the reality of the Universe while Nature is their norm.  Being natural means to exist spontaneously without having to take any action.  Therefore the fabulous phoenix can soar high and the quail must fly low, the acacia can live for a long time and the mushroom for a short time.  They are capable of doing these not because of their taking any action but because of their nature, because of what they are.
 

[Marblehead]

Silence. 

 

Lao Tzu became tranced by all Chuang Tzu's words.

 

But the silence awakened him and he replied:

 

 

Tao Is Great And Endless

Tao is Great, Heaven is Great,
Earth is Great, And man is also Great.

These are the Great Four in the Universe,
And man is one of them.

Man models himself after the Earth;
Earth models itself after Heaven;
Heaven models itself after Nature;
And Nature models itself after Tao.

Music and fine food make the passerby pause.

How different is that which the mouth utters about the Tao!

How tasteless, how lacking in savor!

If you look at it, you can see nothing;
If you listen to it, you hear nothing;
But, if you use it, you can never use it up.

Great Space has no corners;
The Great Vessel takes long to complete;
The Great Tone makes little sound;
And the Great Image has no shape.

Great talent takes long to mature;
Great music is faintly heard;
Great form has no contour;
And Tao is hidden without a name.

The Tao is Great but has no name.

The Tao is good at beginning things
And at bringing things to completion.

It is this Tao that is adept at
Lending its power and bringing fulfillment.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu seemed to be dreaming he was a butterfly so Lao Tzu continued,

 

 

Reversal Is The Movement Of Tao

Gentleness is the function of Tao.
Reversion is the action of Tao;
Flexibility is the method of Tao.

 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu quickly responded:

 

 

Reversion Is The Action Of Tao

All things being equal, how can one say which is long and which is short?  Tao is without beginning, without end.  The material things are born and die, and no credit is taken for their development.  Emptiness and fullness alternate, and their relations are not fixed.  Past years cannot be recalled; time cannot be arrested.  The succession of growth and decay, of increase and decrease, goes in a cycle, each end becoming a new beginning.  In this sense only may we discuss the ways of truth and the principles of the Universe.  The life of things passes by like a rushing, galloping horse, changing at every turn, at every hour.  What should one do, or what should one not do?  Let the cycle of changes go on by themselves!
 

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu stated:

 

 

He Who Knows Does Not Speak

He who knows does not speak;
He who speaks does not know.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu looked around, then looked at Lao Tzu and asked, "You talkin' to me?'

 

Lao Tzu simply smiled.

 

 

Then Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

The Duke And The Wheelwright

The Duke sat under his canopy reading his philosophy; and the wheelwright was out in the yard making a wheel.  The wheelwright laid aside hammer and chisel, climbed the steps, and said to the Duke, “May I ask you, Lord, what is this you are reading?”

The Duke said, “The experts.  The authorities.”

And the wheelwright asked, “Alive or dead?”

“Dead a long time.”

“Then,” said the wheelwright, “you are reading only the dirt they left behind.”

Then the Duke replied, “What do you know about it?  You are only a wheelwright.  You had better give me a good explanation or else you must pay for your arrogance.”

The wheelwright said, “Let us look at the affair from my point of view.  When I make wheels, if I go easy, they fall apart, if I am too rough, they do not fit.  If I am neither too easy nor too rough they come out right.  The work is what I want it to be.  You cannot put this into words.  You just have to know how it is.  I cannot even tell my own son exactly how it is done, and my own son cannot learn it from me.  So here I am, seventy years old, still making wheels!  The men of old took all they really knew with them to the grave.  And so, Lord, what you are reading there is only the dirt they left behind them.”
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued on:

 

 

The Value Of Words

When people think of learning the truth, they think of books.  Books are only words but words, of course, have a value.  The value of words lies in the meaning behind them.  This so-called meaning is but an effort to grasp at something and that something cannot really be expressed by words.  Because the world values words, it preserves the books.  But I do not value them, because what they value is not the real value of the books.
 

[Marblehead]

A quick breath and Chuang Tzu continues:

 

 

He Who Knows

The world values books, and thinks that in so doing it is valuing Tao.  But books contain words only.  And yet there is something else which gives value to the books.  Not the words only, nor the thought in the words, but something else within the thought, swinging it in a certain direction that words cannot comprehend.  But it is the words themselves that the world values when it commits them to books.  And though the world values them, these words are worthless as long as that which gives them value is not held in honor.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

He Who Discusses Does Not Understand

That form comes from the formless and the formless operates through form is understood by everybody.  All people speak about this, but the man who understands Tao ignores such discussion. He who understands Tao finally does not discuss, and he who discusses does not understand Tao finally.
 

[Marblehead]

Furthermore Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

It Is Difficult Not To Talk About Tao

The Sage says, “It is easy to know Tao, and difficult not to talk about it.  To know and not to talk about it is to follow Nature; to know and talk about it is to follow man.  The ancients followed Nature and did not follow man.”
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued without break:

 

 

That Which Man Apprehends

That which man apprehends by observation is only outward form and color, name and noise; and he thinks that this will put him in possession of Tao.  Form and color, name and sound, do not reach to reality.  That is why it is said, “He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.”  How then is the world going to know Tao through words?
 

[Marblehead]

Feeling at peace with himself, Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

The Relativity Of Knowledge

The disciple asked the Sage, saying, “Do you know for certain that all things are the same?”

“How can I know?” answered the Sage.  “Do you know what you do not know?”

“How can I know?” replied the disciple.  “But then does nobody know?”

“How can I know? said the Sage.  “Nevertheless, I will try to tell you.  How can it be known that what I call knowing is really not knowing and that what I call not knowing is not really knowing?  Now I would ask you this.  If a man sleeps in a damp place, he gets lumbago and dies.  But how about an eel?  And living up in a tree is frightening and trying to one’s nerves. But how about monkeys?  Of the man, the eel, and the monkey, whose habitat is the right one, absolutely?  Human beings feed on flesh, deer on grass, centipedes on little snakes, owls and crows on mice.  Of these four, whose is the right taste, absolutely? The monkey mates with the dog-headed female ape, the buck with the doe, eels consort with their own kind, while man admires the famous beauties, at the sight of whom fish plunge deep down in the water, birds soar high in the air, and deer hurry away.  Yet who shall say which is the correct standard of beauty?  In my opinion, the doctrines of humanity and justice and the paths of right and wrong are so confused that it is impossible to know their contentions.”

“If you then”, asked the disciple, “do not know what is good and bad, is the Perfect Man equally without this knowledge?”

“The Perfect Man”, answered the Sage, “is a pure spiritual being.  Were the ocean itself scorched up, he would not feel hot.  Were the great rivers frozen hard, he would not feel cold.  Were the mountains to be cleft by thunder, and the great deep to be thrown up by storm, he would not tremble with fear.  Thus, he would mount upon the clouds of Heaven and pass beyond the limits of this mundane existence.  Death and life have no more victory over him.  How much less should he concern himself with the distinctions such as profit and loss, right and wrong?”

“Then”, said the disciple, “one who does not know really knows, and one who knows really does not know.  Who knows this knowledge without knowing?”
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu furthermore stated:

 

 

On The Unknowable

What man knows is very little.  Although that knowledge is little, man must rather depend on what he does not know before he can know the meaning of Tao.  What we can know compared with what we cannot know is but like a squint compared with the full view of a situation.
 

[Marblehead]

Finally Chuang Tzu fell silent.

 

After a few minutes Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Heaven’s Way

The heavy is the root of the light;
Tranquillity is the lord of agitation.
The solid is the root of the fluid;
Quiescent is the master of the hasty.

When things reach their prime, they get old;
This is called “not the Tao”.

What is not the Tao will come to an early end.

Retire when the deed is accomplished;
Such is Heaven’s way.