The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Michael Sternbach]

And Chuang Tzu furthermore stated:

 

 

On The Unknowable

 

What man knows is very little.  Although that knowledge is little, man must rather depend on what he does not know before he can know the meaning of Tao.  What we can know compared with what we cannot know is but like a squint compared with the full view of a situation.

 

I agree that what we actually know is very little in comparison to what there would be to know. But how can we depend on what we don't know? Does Chuang Tzu mean, to know the Dao is to accept it as "the Unknowable"?

 

Finally Chuang Tzu fell silent.

 

After a few minutes Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Heaven’s Way

 

The heavy is the root of the light;

Tranquillity is the lord of agitation.

The solid is the root of the fluid;

Quiescent is the master of the hasty.

 

When things reach their prime, they get old;

This is called “not the Tao”.

 

What is not the Tao will come to an early end.

 

Retire when the deed is accomplished;

Such is Heaven’s way.

 

 

How can something not be the Dao, or not be one with it? Does this mean, what doesn't follow the spirit of the Dao cannot endure?

 

I look forward to your comments, Master Marblehead.

[Marblehead]

Of your two questions; one at a time in order to reduce the possibility of misunderstandings.

I agree that what we actually know is very little in comparison to what there would be to know. But how can we depend on what we don't know? Does Chuang Tzu mean, to know the Dao is to accept it as "the Unknowable"?

For me this speaks to the concept of our intuition.  Why do we become intuitively inspired?  That, to me, is the "unknowable".

 

In my life I have found my intuitive inspirations much more sound than much of my logical thought.  Logical thought is (or at least should be) based on facts as we understand them.  Our understandings are oftentimes flawed resulting in faulty logic.

 

To know the processes of Dao without knowing why, I think, is something we can depend on.  To know what our intuition is telling us without knowing why is something I think we can depend on.

[Marblehead]

What is not the Tao will come to an early end

How can something not be the Dao, or not be one with it? Does this mean, what doesn't follow the spirit of the Dao cannot endure?

This is one that I'm not sure I hold to an understanding of Lao Tzu's intent but have applied it to my own understandings.

 

Lao Tzu spoke numerous time about "the Way of Tao" and "the Way of man" and suggesting that these two were different.  So much so that he suggests that "the Way of man" is not always "the Way of Tao".

 

Example:  Man has a deep rooted desire to change the course of nature.  To me, this is NOT the Way of Tao and all efforts to do so will come to an eventual (not necessarily an early) end.  Basically, long term, a wasted effort.

 

However, doing things that will not be against the Way of Tao, the Way of nature, will last longer because it has not interferred with the natural flow of Tao.  All we did was give nature a helping hand at creating something that is more desirable for us but yet not against the natural flow.

 

You know that I cannot speak to any "intent" on the part of Tao as that would suggest personifying (reifying) Tao.  There is no intent; there are only the processes (Tzujan, Ziran).

 

We humans oftentimes view these processes as destructive.  But the destruction results in the potential for new creation.  But in nature, exclusive of man, these are only processes; beyond the dualities of good/bad, destruction/creation.  This is to say that if the Way of Tao is followed things will endure to their natural end.  The Way of man results in an early end.

[Michael Sternbach]

Of your two questions; one at a time in order to reduce the possibility of misunderstandings.

 

For me this speaks to the concept of our intuition. Why do we become intuitively inspired? That, to me, is the "unknowable".

 

In my life I have found my intuitive inspirations much more sound than much of my logical thought. Logical thought is (or at least should be) based on facts as we understand them. Our understandings are oftentimes flawed resulting in faulty logic.

 

To know the processes of Dao without knowing why, I think, is something we can depend on. To know what our intuition is telling us without knowing why is something I think we can depend on.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. Intuition provides a way of knowing things, which is different from but as (if not more) reliable than knowing them with our conscious mind.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

What is not the Tao will come to an early end

 

This is one that I'm not sure I hold to an understanding of Lao Tzu's intent but have applied it to my own understandings.

 

Lao Tzu spoke numerous time about "the Way of Tao" and "the Way of man" and suggesting that these two were different.  So much so that he suggests that "the Way of man" is not always "the Way of Tao".

 

Example:  Man has a deep rooted desire to change the course of nature.  To me, this is NOT the Way of Tao and all efforts to do so will come to an eventual (not necessarily an early) end.  Basically, long term, a wasted effort.

 

However, doing things that will not be against the Way of Tao, the Way of nature, will last longer because it has not interferred with the natural flow of Tao.  All we did was give nature a helping hand at creating something that is more desirable for us but yet not against the natural flow.

 

You know that I cannot speak to any "intent" on the part of Tao as that would suggest personifying (reifying) Tao.  There is no intent; there are only the processes (Tzujan, Ziran).

 

We humans oftentimes view these processes as destructive.  But the destruction results in the potential for new creation.  But in nature, exclusive of man, these are only processes; beyond the dualities of good/bad, destruction/creation.  This is to say that if the Way of Tao is followed things will endure to their natural end.  The Way of man results in an early end.

 

Look at evolution, whether in cosmological or in biological terms. Isn't it starting with the most simple forms and directed towards more and more complex manifestations? That Dao therefore has aims is not the same like saying it's got to be personalized but there IS some logic or mathematics inherent to it.

 

And the evolution of the whole breaks down into our everyday situations and decisions in which we can choose to swim with or against the current. In which case will we endure longer?

 

Of course, I am not talking about the currents of the social world here, but of the evolutionary current of... the Dao.

[Marblehead]

True that.  The evolution of all things within the universe don't have to adhere to our logical mind.  And true, swimming against the current can be done but it requires much more energy than swimming with the current.  (Beware of the waterfalls though.)

[Marblehead]

After a moment of silence Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Tao (Way) Of Heaven

The Tao of Heaven is not to fight
Yet to be good at winning.

Not to speak yet skillfully respond.

To be at ease yet carefully plan.

Rewarding vice and virtue without distinction;
Making its appearance without call;
Achieving results without obvious design;
Such are the ways of Tao.

Heaven’s net is large and vast;
No one summons it, yet it comes on its own;
With big meshes, yet letting nothing slip through.
 

[Marblehead]

Surprisingly, Chuang had nothing more to say so he remained silent.

 

Lao Tzu went into deep thought and decided to speak to a different chain of thoughts beginning with:

 

 

Knowing When To Stop

When human civilization arose there were names.

As soon as there are set names,
Then you must know it is time to stop.

By knowing to stop you will come to no harm.

To hold it upright and fill it
Is not so good as stopping in time.

Stretch a bow to the very full
And you will wish you had stopped in time.

Temper a sword-edge to its very sharpest
And the edge will not last long.

When you pound it out and give it a point,
It won’t be preserved very long.
 

[Marblehead]

"Ah!", thought Chuang Tzu, "Something more to speak to." and he said:

 

 

Knowing Where To Stop

Human life is limited, but knowledge is limitless.  To drive the limited in pursuit of the limitless is fatal; and to presume that one really knows is fatal indeed!

One who knows how to stop at where he cannot know has reached the limit of knowledge.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

On Preserving The Nature Of Life

Allow the foot to walk according to its capacity, and let the hand grasp according to its strength.  Listen to what the ear hears and see what the eye sees.  In knowing, stop at what cannot be known.  In action, stop at what cannot be done.  Employ the faculties as they would use themselves.  Do things that would be done by themselves.  Be unrestricted within one’s lot but do not attempt the least outside of it.  This is the easiest way of taking no (unnatural) action.  There has never been a case of taking no action and yet of one’s nature and life not being preserved, and I have never heard of any principle according to which the preservation of Nature and life is not a blessing.
 

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu thought for a moments then stated:

 

 

Prefer Femininity

Know masculinity, but prefer femininity;
You will be the ravine of the world.

Being the ravine of the world,
Your constant Virtue will not leave;

You will have the original Character
Which is not cut up,

And you will return again
To the innocence of the infant.

Know whiteness but prefer blackness;
You will be the model of the world.

Be the model of the world
And Supreme Te will not fail you;
And you will be able to return
To the Absolute of the Unseen.

Being the model of the world,
You have the eternal power which never errs,
Your constant Virtue will not go astray,
And you will return again
To the Primordial Nothingness;
To the condition which has no limit.

Know fame yet prefer ignominy;
Be familiar with honor and glory
But keep to obscurity;
You will be the valley of the world.

Be the valley of the world,
And from Supreme Te you will get your content
And be able to return to the simplicity
Of uncarved wood.

Being the valley of the world,
You will have an eternal power
Which always suffices,
And you will return again
To the natural integrity of uncarved wood.

When you know the pure
Yet hold on to the soiled,
You will be the valley of the country.

When you are the valley of the country,
Your constant Virtue is complete,
And when your constant Virtue is complete
You will return to the state of uncarved wood.

Once the uncarved wood is carved,
It forms utensils.

This is why the Holy Man does not carve,
Nor does he wish to be carved.

Since the Holy Man follows the way of Tao
He is fit to be lord over the functionaries.

The wise one of old
Was skilled at practicing the Tao.

He had subtle wisdom and depth of understanding;
He was mysterious and penetratingly wise.

His depth cannot be known.

It is only because he cannot be known
That therefore were I forced to describe him
I would say,

“Cautious was he,
Like someone crossing a river in winter!
Undecided was he,
As though in fear of his neighbors on all four sides!
Solemn and polite was he,
Like a guest!
Self-effacing was he,
Like ice as it melts!
Genuine and unformed was he,
Like a piece of uncarved wood!
Open-minded and expansive was he,
Like a valley!
Merged, undifferentiated was he,
Mixing freely, easy going, like murky water!”

Who can find repose in a muddy world?

By lying still, it becomes clear.

Who can maintain his calm for long?

By activity and anxiety it comes back to life.

He who holds fast to the Tao of old,
In order to manage the affairs of now,
Is able to know the Primeval Beginnings
Which are the continuity of Tao.
 

[Marblehead]

"Wow!", thought Chuang Tzu, "He got on a roll."

 

After a short pause Chuang replied:

 

 

The Demeanor Of The Pure Man

The pure men of old slept without dreams, and woke without worries.  They ate with indifference to flavor, and drew deep breaths.  True men draw breath from their heels; the vulgar only from their throats.

The pure men of old did not know what it was to love life or to hate death.  They did not rejoice in birth, nor strive to put off dissolution.  Unconcerned they came and unconcerned they went.  That was all.  They did not forget whence it was they had sprung; neither did they seek to inquire their return thither. Cheerfully they accepted life, waiting patiently for their restoration.  This is what is called ‘not to allow the mind to lead one astray from Tao,’ and ‘not to supplement the natural by human means.’  Such a one may be called a pure man.

Such men are free in mind and calm in demeanor.  Sometimes disconsolate like autumn, and sometimes warm like spring, their joys and sorrows are in direct touch with the four seasons, in harmony with all creation, and none know the limit thereof.

The pure men of old appeared of towering stature and yet could not topple.  They behaved as though wanting in themselves, but without looking up to others.  Naturally independent of mind, they were not severe.  Living in unconstrained freedom, yet they did not try to show off.  They appeared to smile as if pleased, and to move only in natural response to surroundings.  Their serenity flowed from the store of goodness within.  In social relationships they kept to their inner Character.  Broad-minded, they appeared great; towering, they seemed beyond control.  Continuously abiding, they seemed like doors kept shut; absent-minded, they seemed to forget speech.
 

[Marblehead]

Without pause Chuang Tzu continues:

 

 

The Eye Of The Senses And The Eye Of The Soul

There was once a man who had had one of his legs cut off.  His disciples were so numerous that no one could count them all.

Two men were talking one day and the one asked the other, saying, “This man has been mutilated, yet he has so many followers that no one can take count.  He neither stands up to preach nor sits down to give discourse; yet those who go to him empty, depart full.  Is he the kind of person who can teach without words and influence peoples’ mind without material means?  What manner of man is this?”

“He is a Sage”, replied the other.

“But the man has been mutilated”, said the first, “and yet people call him ‘Master’.  He must be very different from the ordinary men.  What makes him so different that people willingly subject themselves to him?

"From the point of view of differentiation of things”, replied the other, “we distinguish between the liver and the gall, between one nation and another.  From the point of view of their sameness, all things are One.  He who regards things in the light of Oneness does not trouble about what reaches him through the senses of hearing and sight, but lets his mind wander in the moral harmony of things.  He beholds the unity in things, and does not notice the loss of particular objects.  And thus the loss of his leg is no different to him than the loss of so much dirt.”

“Therefore what he, the pure man, cares for is One, and what he does not care for is parts, manifestations of One.  What he sees as One is One, and what he sees as not One is also One.  In that he sees the unity, he is of Tao; in that he sees the distinctions, he is of man.  Not to allow the human and the divine to be confused; therein is what distinguishes the pure man.”
 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Wouldnt his disciples arrive full, and depart empty?

[Marblehead]

Wouldnt his disciples arrive full, and depart empty?

Hopefully.

[Stosh]

Hopefully.

That isn't what it says though.

[Marblehead]

That isn't what it says though.

But it was the one man who didn't understand who said it.

[Stosh]

oh

Edited March 12, 2015 by Stosh

[PLB]

Marblehead,

The scope of what you have taken on here is remarkable. I will have to read and ponder for a long time before adding reply or realizing I cannot.

Well done.

[Marblehead]

Thanks PLB.  This was done many years ago.  Of course, all translations are the work of others and I thank them for their work.  The assimilation work is mine inspired by Lin Yutang.

[Marblehead]

Anyhow, as silence fell following the public conversations Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

Apologies

If a man steps on a stranger’s foot in the marketplace, he makes a polite apology and offers an explanation “This place is so terribly crowded!”  If an elder brother steps on his younger brother’s foot he says, “Sorry!” and that is that.  If a parent treads on his child’s foot, nothing is said at all.

The greatest politeness is free of all formality.  Perfect conduct is free of concern.  Perfect wisdom is unplanned.  Perfect love is without demonstrations.  Perfect sincerity offers no guarantee.  Perfect friendship is without condition.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu's thoughts kept flowing so he continued with:

 

 

Perfect Knowledge

A disciple, who had no teeth, came and asked the Sage for a lesson on the Tao.  (Maybe he could bite on that!)

So the Sage began, “First, gain control of the body and all its organs.  Have but a single gaze, and the Heavenly harmony will come and find you.  Then, control the mind.  Keep back your knowledge, unify your Self, and the Spirit will come and dwell within you.  Attain One-pointedness, then the harmony of Heaven will come down and dwell in you and you will be radiant with life.  Te will provide beauty for you, Tao will be a dwelling for you; you will rest in Tao.  You will have the innocence and simple look of a new-born calf.  O, lucky you.  You will not even know the cause of your state, and you will ask no questions.”

By the time the Sage had finished speaking, the disciple had dropped off to sleep.  His mind just could not bite on the meat of doctrine.  The Sage went off singing joyfully:

His body is dry, like dead wood,
His mind is like dead ashes!

His knowledge is solid,
His wisdom true!

In deep dark night
He wanders free,

Without aim
And without design.

Who can compare
With this toothless man?
 

[Marblehead]

There was a short silence, Lao Tzu said nothing so Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Perfect Knowledge Sees All In One

Perfect knowledge sees all in One.  Small knowledge breaks down into the many.  When the body sleeps without dream, the soul is enfolded in One.  When the body wakes, the senses begin to function.  They resound with every encounter with all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart; men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt.  Little fears eat away their peace of heart.  Great fears swallow them whole.  Arrows shot at a target.  Hit and miss, right and wrong; that is what men call judgement, decision.  Their pronouncements are as final as treaties between emperors.  Out of their crooked mouths, words are retched up like vomit.  O, they make their point!  Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler than dead leaves in autumn and winter.  Their words flow out like piss, never to be recovered.  They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged, choked up like old drain pipes.  The mind fails.  It shall not see light again.

Pleasure and rage, sadness and joy, hopes and regrets, change and stability, weakness and decision, impatience and sloth; all are sounds from the same flute, all mushroom from the same wet mold.  Day and night follow one another and come upon us without our seeing how they sprout!

Enough!  Enough!  Early and late we meet the “that” from which “these” all grow!  If there were no “that” there would be no “this.”  If there were no “this” there would be nothing for all these winds to play on.  So far we can go, but how shall we understand what brings it about?

One may well suppose a True Governor to be behind it all.  That such a power works I can believe.  I cannot see it’s form.  It acts but has no form.
 

[Michael Sternbach]

Edited March 15, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

I have experienced many times that, waking up from sleep, I felt very clear and deeply at peace,

Yes, beautiful experience, isn't it?

 

but lost this state soon after when the concerns of the day kicked in again.

 

And then we screw it up.  Hehehe.

 

I love the comment from Chuang Tzu:  The perfect man (or sage) sleeps without dreams and wakes without worry.