The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

(I have already put labels on Chuang Tzu.  From the following I think one more can be added, that being Pacifist.)

 

Chuang Tzu responded wtih:

 

 

On Not Fighting

A kingdom was under constant attack by barbarians.  The king offered the enemy hides and silks and dogs and horses and jewels and jade, but the invader would not accept these gifts. It was realized, therefore, that what the barbarians wanted was the territory, and the king said to the people, “To live with an elder brother and allow his younger brother to be killed, and to live with the father and allow his sons to be killed, this I cannot do, I must leave the kingdom.  You should all try to remain here.  What is the difference between being my subjects and being the subjects of the barbarians?  Besides, I have heard it said that one should not injure the people to be supported on account of the means of support, that is, on account of the territory.”  Then he took a cane and left the country, but the people fell in line and followed him.  They thus together founded a new kingdom at the foot of the mountains.  Now, such a man like the king may be said to be one who valued the people’s lives.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Don’t Injure Your Life On Account Of A Kingdom

Three generations of the king were assassinated, and the prince was worried and ran away to a mountain cave.  The people were left without a king and they searched for the prince in vain.  Finally, they located him living in a cave but the prince refused to come out.  The people smoked him out by burning herbs.  Then they put him on the royal carriage and when the prince mounted the carriage, he turned his head up and cried.  “To be king!  To be king!  Why don’t you people leave me alone?”  The prince did not mind being a king; what he minded was the troubles that went with being a king.  A person like the prince may be said to be one who would not injure his own life on account of a kingdom.  This was exactly the type of king that the people wanted.
 

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu thought for a moment then said:

 

 

Correctly Using Men

One who is good at leading in war is not warlike.

One who is good at being a warrior
Does not make a show of his might
And is not impetuous or violent.

One who is good in battle
Does not get angry or lose his temper.

One who is good at defeating the enemy
Does not engage him and never takes the offensive.

One who is good at using men
Places himself below them.

This is called the virtue of non-violence;
This is called Equaling Heaven.

It is the high point of the past.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu responded with:

 

 

Utilizing The Natural Capacity Of Things

The expert driver utilizes the natural capacity of a horse to its limit.  To use the capacity to its limit lies in letting it take its own course.  If forced to run at a rapid pace, with the expectation that they can exceed their capacity, horses will be unable to bear it and many will die.  On the other hand, if horses are allowed to use their proper strength and to adapt their pace to their given lot, even if they travel to the borders of the country, their nature will be fully preserved.

But there are those who will say:  “Then set the horses free and do not ride on them.”  And there are others who, upon hearing the doctrine of taking no action will immediately say:  “It is better to lie down than to walk.”  Why are they so much off the track and unable to return?

If one is contented, wherever he goes, he will be at ease wherever he may be.  Even life and death cannot affect him, much less flood or fire.  The perfect man is not besieged by calamities, not because he escapes from them but because he advances the principles of things and goes forward and naturally comes into union with them.
 

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu waited for Chuang Tzu to say more but nothing came.

 

Lao Tzu then said:

 

 

Gentleness Occupies The Superior Position

When people are born,
They are supple and soft;
When they die,
They end up stretched out firm and rigid.

When the Ten Thousand Things
And grasses and trees are alive,
They are supple and pliant;
When they are dead,
They are withered and dried out.

Therefore we say that the firm and rigid
Are companions of death,

While the supple, the soft, and the flexible
Are companions of life.

If a soldier is rigid,
He will not win;
If a tree is rigid,
It will come to its end;
When an army is headstrong,
It will lose in battle.

Rigidity occupies the inferior position;
Suppleness, softness, and flexibility
Occupy the superior position.

The big and strong belong underneath,
The gentle and weak belong at the top,
As with trunk and twig.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu responded with:

 

 

The Need To Win

When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill.  If he shoots for a brass buckle he becomes nervous.  If he shoots for a prize of gold he goes blind or sees two targets; he is out of his mind.  His skill has not changed but the prize divides him.  He cares.  He thinks more of winning than of shooting; and the need to win drains him of power.
 

[Stosh]

Just then ,, Confucious walked by  and inserted,,,A Man who does not care , forgets his bow. 

[Marblehead]

He hadn't forgotten.  He just didn't care.

 

 

Anyhow,

 

 

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Man With No Place For Death

We come out of the Unseen to be born
And we reenter it when we die.

The thirteen parts of us,
The four limbs and nine external cavities,
Are companions of life,
And the same thirteen are companions of death.

I have heard that
Those who excel in maintaining their life principle
Do not fear rhinoceroses and tigers when traveling,
And bear neither breastplates nor weapons in the army.

In such men there is no place
For the rhinoceros to plunge its horn,
The tiger to sink its claws,
Nor the warrior to thrust his blade.

Why?

Because in such men there is no place for death.

We come out into life and go back into death.

Yet people,
Because they regard life as Life,
In all of their actions
Move toward the realm of death.

Now, why is this so?
It is because they regard life as Life.


 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

On Life And Death

Tao gives me this form, this toil in manhood, this repose in old age, this rest in death.  Surely that which is such a kind arbiter of my life is the best arbiter of my death.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Life Is The Companion Of Death; Death Is The Beginning Of Life

Who can appreciate the connection between the two?  When a man is born, it is but the embodiment of Spirit.  When the Spirit is embodied, there is life, and when the Spirit disperses, there is death.  But if life and death are companions to each other, why should I be concerned?  All things are one.

What we love is the mystery of life.  What we hate is corruption in death.  But the corruptible in its turn becomes mysterious life, and this mysterious life once more becomes corruptible.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu felt as if on a roll so continued:

 

 

The Agitations Of Man’s Soul

For whether the soul is locked in sleep or whether in waking hours when the body moves we are striving and struggling with the immediate circumstances.  Some are easy-going and leisurely, some are deep and cunning, and some are secretive.  Now we are frightened over petty fears, now disheartened and dismayed over some great terror.  Now the mind flies forth like an arrow from a cross-bow, to be the arbiter of right and wrong.  Now it stays behind as if sworn to an oath, to hold on to what it has secured. Then, as under autumn and winter’s blight, comes gradual decay, and submerged in its own occupations, it keeps on running its course, never to return.  Finally, worn out and imprisoned, it is choked up like an old drain, and the failing mind shall not see light again.

Joy and anger, sorrow and happiness, worries and regrets, hesitation and fears come upon us by turns with ever-changing moods, like music from the hollows, or like mushrooms from the damp.  Day and night they alternate within us but we cannot tell whence they spring.  Alas!  Alas!  Could we for a moment lay our finger upon their very cause?

But for these emotions I should not be.  Yet, but for me, there would be no one to feel them.  So far we can go; but we do not know by whose order they come into play.  It seems clear that there is a soul; but the clue to its existence is wanting.  That it functions is credible enough, though we cannot see its form.  Perhaps it has inner reality without outward form.

Take the human body with all its hundred bones, nine external cavities and six internal organs, all complete.  Which part of it should I love best?  Do you not cherish all equally, or have you a preference?  Do these organs serve as servants or masters?  Do they serve as master and servant by turn?  Surely there is some soul which controls them all.

But whether or not we ascertain what is the true nature of this soul, it matters but little to the soul itself.  For once coming into this material shape, it runs its course until it is exhausted.  To be harassed by the wear and tear of life, and to be driven along without possibility of arresting one’s course; is not this pitiful indeed?  To labor without cease all ones life, and then, without stopping long enough to enjoy the fruit, worn out with labor, to depart, one knows not whither; is not this a just cause for grief?
 

[Marblehead]

And furthermore Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

Those Who Dream Of The Banquet Wake Up To Lamentation And Sorrow

How do I know that love of life is not a delusion after all?  How do I know but that he who dreads death is not as a child who has lost his way and does not know his way home?

The daughter of a king was sent for marriage to a frontier officer.  When the duke first got her, she wept until the bosom of her dress was drenched with tears.  But when she came to the royal residence, shared with the duke his luxurious couch, and ate rich food, she repented of having wept.  How then do I know but that the dead may repent of having previously clung to life?

Those who dream of the banquet wake to lamentation and sorrow.  Those who dream of lamentation and sorrow wake to join the hunt.  While they dream, they do not know that they are dreaming.  Some will even interpret the very dream they are dreaming; and only when they awake do they know it was a dream. By and by comes the great awakening, and then we find out that this life is really a great dream.  Fools think they are awake now, and flatter themselves they know; this one is a prince, and that one is a shepherd.  What narrowness of mind!  The fools who think they know are but dreams; and I who say they are dreams; I am but a dream myself.  This is a paradox.  Tomorrow a Sage may arise to explain it; but that tomorrow will not be until ten thousand generations have gone by, yet you may meet him around the corner.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

The True Man

What is meant by a “true man”?

The true men of old were not afraid when they stood alone in their views.  No great exploits.  No plans.  If they failed, no sorrow.  No self-congratulation in success.  They scaled cliffs, never dizzy, plunged in water, never wet, walked through fire and were not burnt.  Thus their knowledge reached all the way to Tao.

The true men of old slept without dreams, woke without worries.  Their food was plain.  They breathed deep.  True men breathe from their heels.  Others breathe with their gullets, half-strangled; in dispute they heave up arguments like vomit.  Where the fountains of passion lie deep the Heavenly springs are soon dry.

The true men of old knew no lust for life, no dread of death.  Their entrance was without gladness, their exit, without resistance.  Easy come, easy go.  They did not forget where from, nor ask where to, nor drive grimly forward fighting their way through life.  They took life as it came, gladly; took death as it came, without care; and went away, yonder.  Yonder!

They had no mind to fight Tao.  They did not try, by their own contriving, to help Tao along.  These are the ones we call true men.  Minds free, thoughts gone, brows clear, faces serene.  Were they cool?  Only as cool as autumn.  Were they hot?  No hotter than spring.  All that came out of them came quiet, like the four seasons.  The pure men of old did not know what it was to love life or to hate death.
 

[Marblehead]

Life and death.  How much difference is there between the two?

 

Chuang Tzu continues:

 

 

Human Life Is Short

Human life in this world is but as the form of a white pony flashing across a rock crevice.  In a moment it is gone. Suddenly waking up, all life is born; suddenly slipping off, all silently creep away.  With one change, one is born; with another, one dies.  Living creatures moan, and mankind weeps.  Remove its bondage, slip off its skin-carcass, and curling up, where shall the soul of man go?  Is it perhaps on the great journey home?
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu isn't finished yet.  He continues:

 

 

At The Sage’s Mother’s Death

One disciple said to his senior, “When the Sage’s Mother died, he wept, but without sniveling; his heart was not grieved; he wore mourning but without sorrow.”

“The Sage,” said the other, “has really mastered the Tao. He has gone beyond the wise ones.  The Sage knows not whence we come in life nor whither we go in death.  He knows not which to put first and which to put last. He is ready to be transformed without caring into what he may be transformed; that is all.  How could that which is changing say that it will not change, and how could that which regards itself as permanent realize that it is changing already?  Even you and I are perhaps dreamers who have not yet awakened.  Moreover, the Sage knows his form is subject to change, but his soul remains the same.  He believes not in real death, but regards it as moving into a new house.  He weeps only when he sees others weep, as it comes to him naturally.

“Besides, we all talk of ‘me’.  How do you know what is this ‘me’ that we speak of?  You dream you are a bird, and soar to Heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean’s depths.  You cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream.

“A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile.  Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One.”
 

[Stosh]

Soul?  warning Will Robinson ! !  

[Marblehead]

Soul?  warning Will Robinson ! !  

Yes.  Soul.  As in my understanding, the unconscious mind.

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu concluded with:

 

 

On Dreaming Of Being A Butterfly

Once upon a time I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly.  I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was a man.  Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again.  Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.  Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction.  The transition is called the transformation of material things.


(This is an important idea that recurs frequently in Taoist writings; all things are in constant flux and change, but are only different aspects of the One.)
 

Edited May 13, 2015 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

As you see it, whats the distinction ? 

[Marblehead]

As you see it, whats the distinction ? 

The thought "different aspects of the One".  (Not different incarnations of the same thing.)  (That negates the concept of the soul being repeatedly incarnated into different bodies.)

[Jeff]

The thought "different aspects of the One".  (Not different incarnations of the same thing.)  (That negates the concept of the soul being repeatedly incarnated into different bodies.)

 

How does that concept logically negate the repeatedly incarnated? Could a soul not just be a subset of the one that experiences different forms in the one?

[Marblehead]

How does that concept logically negate the repeatedly incarnated? Could a soul not just be a subset of the one that experiences different forms in the one?

Hi Jeff, it's been a while since we had something to talk about.

 

Remember, I am speaking for myself based on my understanding.  I'm not trying to change anyone else's beliefs.

 

In my understanding there are three aspects of what we are (the "I").

 

First is body and conscious brain (mind).

Second is our unconscious brain (mind) that I consider our soul.

Third is Chi, the energy of life.

 

We know that the body and brain will one day die.  End of the persona.  End of soul.  End of body.

 

Energy, however, is eternal.  It can never be added to nor reduced.  This is the part of us that is transmutated.  The energy.  It will become many other things.  But it will not become itself (what it was as a specific living thing) because that no longer exists.

 

Yes, part of this energy might become a wing of a butterfly.  It might even become part of another living human.  But it will be a totally different human than the human it was a part of while alive.

 

Again, I cannot speak to the concepts of the Christian or Buddhist soul because I do not hold to those beliefs.  As a Materialist I am even stretching things when I speak of Chi energy because really, I have no proof that what I believe is true.

 

I used the terms "body, soul and spirit" simply to include all aspects of what we are now.  Before birth there was no "I" so there was no "body, soul or spirit (in this body as it didn't exist although the potential [Mystery] existed)".

 

So from a POV way off on the sidelines, yes, we can say that we are eternal, but it is not the "I" that is eternal but rather the energy of the universe (Tao) that is eternal.

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff, it's been a while since we had something to talk about.

 

Remember, I am speaking for myself based on my understanding.  I'm not trying to change anyone else's beliefs.

 

In my understanding there are three aspects of what we are (the "I").

 

First is body and conscious brain (mind).

Second is our unconscious brain (mind) that I consider our soul.

Third is Chi, the energy of life.

 

We know that the body and brain will one day die.  End of the persona.  End of soul.  End of body.

 

Energy, however, is eternal.  It can never be added to nor reduced.  This is the part of us that is transmutated.  The energy.  It will become many other things.  But it will not become itself (what it was as a specific living thing) because that no longer exists.

 

Yes, part of this energy might become a wing of a butterfly.  It might even become part of another living human.  But it will be a totally different human than the human it was a part of while alive.

 

Again, I cannot speak to the concepts of the Christian or Buddhist soul because I do not hold to those beliefs.  As a Materialist I am even stretching things when I speak of Chi energy because really, I have no proof that what I believe is true.

 

I used the terms "body, soul and spirit" simply to include all aspects of what we are now.  Before birth there was no "I" so there was no "body, soul or spirit (in this body as it didn't exist although the potential [Mystery] existed)".

 

So from a POV way off on the sidelines, yes, we can say that we are eternal, but it is not the "I" that is eternal but rather the energy of the universe (Tao) that is eternal.

 

Hi MH,

 

Yes, good to have a topic to discuss again. Also, like you I am not trying to put it into any specific framework, but just logically discuss your statements/position. If you don't mind, some potential counter points to your above...

 

First, on energy being eternal (or unchanging), I think there are a few problems with your position found in modern physics. If your position was correct, the universe in motion would be stable in energy terms. Currently, the universe is accelerating in its expansion. Such acceleration requires "energy" coming into the system. Also, if you are familar with a Higgs field (or Higgs particle), modern physics has now measured mass (and therefore also energy) being created from "nothing".

 

Additionally, if you extend your unconscious mind concept to a shared (or universal) subconscious mind concept, the persona (or soul) would not necessarily die with the percieved body. While you may not personally feel energy from others, I think you can agree that a large number of forum members can/have. The "energy sharing method" could easily be defined as that shared subconscious framework.

 

Thanks for the discussion,

Jeff

[Marblehead]

Hi MH, Yes, good to have a topic to discuss again. Also, like you I am not trying to put it into any specific framework, but just logically discuss your statements/position.

Yeah, we get along fine even though we have some different understandings.

 

If you don't mind, some potential counter points to your above...

Oh. I stay ready for those.  Afterall, my understandings vary from most commonly accepted understandings.

 

First, on energy being eternal (or unchanging), I think there are a few problems with your position found in modern physics. If your position was correct, the universe in motion would be stable in energy terms. Currently, the universe is accelerating in its expansion. Such acceleration requires "energy" coming into the system. Also, if you are familar with a Higgs field (or Higgs particle), modern physics has now measured mass (and therefore also energy) being created from "nothing".

Something from nothing is Steven Hawking's theory.  I watched the original presentation on TV.  Didn't accept it then, don't accept it now.  It violates all the laws (as we understand them) of physics as well as logical rationality.  If Hawking's theory were correct then there wasn't any need of a Singularity that went "Bang".

 

Something (everything that is) was created out of Singularity.  (Super-Duper Black Hole - the beginning of this cycle of this universe)  Yes, there are unsaid givens to what I just said but I don't have the knowledge to speak to those givens.

 

And too, Wayne L Wang uses Higgs Field Theory in his introduction to his translation of the TTC titled "Dynamic Tao".

 

I think there is much more to be learned regarding the supposed Higgs Particle and what is believed to have been observed.  (Yeah, I am again saying I don't accept "something from nothing".)

 

 

Additionally, if you extend your unconscious mind concept to a shared (or universal) subconscious mind concept, the persona (or soul) would not necessarily die with the percieved body. While you may not personally feel energy from others, I think you can agree that a large number of forum members can/have. The "energy sharing method" could easily be defined as that shared subconscious framework. Thanks for the discussion, Jeff

Yes, that is an argument I have been subjected to a number of times before.

 

I can understand the desire to believe this is true.  It really is a beautiful concept.

 

Regretfully, I have seen, heard, felt, experienced nothing that would cause me to consider it valid.  Materialism, you know.

 

The closest I can get to this concept is with my understanding of Universal Chi (unmanifested energy) that permeates all things in the universe.  So yes, energy that has permeated my essence, passed through me, passes through others as well and eventually through all things of the universe.  Was this Universal Chi altered in any way when it interacted with my personal Chi?  Perhaps.  If so, then yes, there would be what could be called a commonly shared energy of the universe (and Tao).  But I can't go any further than that.

[Marblehead]

I just had a thought:  This "universal chi" that I speak of could be what science is calling "neutrinos".