The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Jeff]

If one has fear of going astray, then one is already on a side path.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Sacrificial Swine

The Grand Augur, who sacrifices the swine and reads omens in the sacrifice, came dressed in his long dark robes to the pig pen, and spoke to the pigs as follows, “Here is my counsel to you.  Do not complain about having to die.  Set your objections aside, please.  Realize that I shall feed you on choice grain for three months.  I myself will have to observe strict discipline for ten days and fast for three.  Then I will lay out grass mats and offer your hams and shoulders upon delicately carved platters with great ceremony.  What more do you want?”

Then, reflecting, he considered the question from the pig’s point of view, “Of course, I suppose you would prefer to be fed with ordinary coarse feed and be left alone in your pen.”

But again, seeing it once more from his own viewpoint, he replied, “No, definitely there is a nobler kind of existence!  To live in honor, to receive the best treatment, to ride in a carriage with fine clothes, even though at any moment one may be disgraced and executed, that is the noble, though uncertain, destiny that I have chosen for myself.”

So he decided against the pig’s point of view, and adopted his own point of view, both for himself and for the pigs.  How fortunate those swine, whose existence was thus ennobled by one who was at once an officer of state and a minister of religion!

When a man plans for himself, he does not mind living with the honor and glory of badges and titles, and being put on a hearse inside its decorative arched cover.  When a man thinks for the pig, he rejects such a proposition.  But when he plans for himself, he accepts it.  What difference is there between him and a pig?
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

On True Happiness

Is there such a thing as true happiness, or is there not?  Is there such a thing which can preserve one’s life, or is there not?  What should I do and what should I believe?  What should I avoid and what should I follow?  What should I accept and what should I reject?  What should I love and what should I hate?

What the world values are wealth, rank, a long life and goodness. What they hate are poverty, a low position, dying young, and ugly disease.  What people are worried about is that their body should not be in good health, that they might not be able to taste rich food, put on fine clothing, see beauty or hear good music.

When they cannot obtain these things, they are plunged into deep sorrow and worry.  Such attendance to the externals is indeed foolish.  The rich hustle and bustle and hoard up wealth which they cannot use.  Their method of attending to external comforts is superficial.  Those in position plan and contrive day and night and ask “Shall I do this, or should I not?” Their method of attending to the externals of life is undependable.

When a man is born, sorrow comes with it.  Those of old age live in senile decay, bound in sorrow, and yet they cannot die!  What a sad picture!  Are they not far gone astray in their pursuit of the visible things?  Martyrs are in the world’s opinion admittedly good.  Yet their goodness does not prevent them from losing their life, and I do not know whether what is called good is really good or bad.  If the former, still it does not help them to preserve their lives; if the latter, still martyrdom enables them to save others.

As to what the world does and the way people seek happiness now, I do not know if such happiness be real happiness or unhappiness.  I watch the world rushing about with the crowd to seek happiness, and see something seems to drive them along.  Yet they all say they are happy.  I have not participated in their happiness or unhappiness.  Is there, after all, such a thing as happiness or unhappiness?

I consider inaction as true happiness, while the world regards it as great misery.  It has been said, “Perfect happiness is the absence of the striving for happiness; perfect renown is the absence of concern for renown.”
 

[Stosh]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Sacrificial Swine

 

The Grand Augur, who sacrifices the swine and reads omens in the sacrifice, came dressed in his long dark robes to the pig pen, and spoke to the pigs as follows, “Here is my counsel to you.  Do not complain about having to die.  Set your objections aside, please.  Realize that I shall feed you on choice grain for three months.  I myself will have to observe strict discipline for ten days and fast for three.  Then I will lay out grass mats and offer your hams and shoulders upon delicately carved platters with great ceremony.  What more do you want?”

 

Then, reflecting, he considered the question from the pig’s point of view, “Of course, I suppose you would prefer to be fed with ordinary coarse feed and be left alone in your pen.”

 

But again, seeing it once more from his own viewpoint, he replied, “No, definitely there is a nobler kind of existence!  To live in honor, to receive the best treatment, to ride in a carriage with fine clothes, even though at any moment one may be disgraced and executed, that is the noble, though uncertain, destiny that I have chosen for myself.”

 

So he decided against the pig’s point of view, and adopted his own point of view, both for himself and for the pigs.  How fortunate those swine, whose existence was thus ennobled by one who was at once an officer of state and a minister of religion!

 

When a man plans for himself, he does not mind living with the honor and glory of badges and titles, and being put on a hearse inside its decorative arched cover.  When a man thinks for the pig, he rejects such a proposition.  But when he plans for himself, he accepts it.  What difference is there between him and a pig?

 

The pig doesn't get insulted at getting called a pig?  

[Marblehead]

The pig doesn't get insulted at getting called a pig?

No, but if you try putting lipstick on it it will get really pissed off.

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Reversion

Disaster is that on which good fortune depends.

Good fortune is that in which disaster is concealed.

Who knows where it will end?

As it is,
There would never be the normal because the normal
Would immediately revert to the abnormal,
And the good would revert to the sinister.

There is no fixed “correct”.

The “correct” turns into the “deviant”;
And “good” turns into “evil”.

People’s state of confusion
Has certainly existed for a long time.

Therefore be square but do not cut;
Be sharp but do not stab;
Have integrity and do not hurt others,
Be straightforward but not unrestrained;
Be bright but do not dazzle.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Good Fortune

The chief of a village had eight sons.  One day he called in a physiognomist, lined the boys up, and said, “Study their faces.  Tell me which is the fortunate one.”

After his examination the expert said, “This one is the fortunate.”

The chief was pleased and surprised.  “In what way?” he inquired.

The physiognomist replied, “He shall eat meat and drink wine for the rest of his days at government expense.”

The chief broke down and sobbed, “My poor son!  My poor son!  What has he done to deserve this misfortune?”

“What!” cried the physiognomist, “When one shares the meals of a prince blessings reach out to all the family, especially to father and mother!  Will you refuse good fortune?”

The chief said, “What makes this fortune ‘good’?  Meat and wine are for mouth and belly.  Is good fortune only in the mouth, and in the belly?  These ‘meals of the prince’, how shall he share them?

“I am no shepherd and a lamb is suddenly born in my house.  I am no game-keeper and quails are born in my yard.  These are awful portents!  I have had no wish for my sons and myself, but to wander at liberty through Earth and Heaven.  I seek no joy for them and for myself but the joy of Heaven, simple fruits of the Earth.  I seek no advantage, make no plans, engage in no business.  With my boys I seek Tao alone.  I have not fought life!  Yet now this uncanny promise of what I never sought; ‘Good fortune!’  Every strange effect has some strange cause.  My sons and I have done nothing to deserve this.  It is inscrutable punishment.  Therefore I weep!”

And so it happened, some time afterward that the chief sent his son on a journey.  The young man was captured by brigands who decided to sell him as a slave.  Believing they could not sell him as he was, they cut off his feet.  Thus, unable to run away, he became a better bargain.  They sold him to the government of another village, and he was put in charge of a tollgate on the highway.  He had meat and wine for the rest of his life at government expense.  In this way it turned out that this son was the fortunate one!
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued saying:

 

 

On Reverting To Your Original Innocence

The Tao is without beginning and without end.  Things are born and die, without holding to any permanence.  They are now empty, now full, without maintaining a constant form.  The years cannot be made to abide; time cannot be arrested.  Processes of increase and decrease are in constant operation and every end is followed by a new beginning.  Thus may we speak of the great norm of the Tao and the principle pervading all things.

The life of things passes by like a galloping horse.  Every movement brings a change, and every hour makes a difference.  What is one to do or what is one not to do?  Indeed, everything will take its own course.

Therefore it has been said that the natural abides within, the artificial without, and Te resides in the natural.  If one knows the course of Nature and man, taking Nature as the fundamental and abiding by Virtue, one may feel free either to proceed or retreat, either to contract or extend, for there is always a return to the essential and to the ultimate.

Therefore it has been said, do not let the artificial obliterate the natural; do not let effort obliterate destiny; do not let enjoyment be sacrificed to fame.  Diligently observe these precepts without fail, and thus you will revert to the original innocence.
 

[Marblehead]

With more to say about this concept, Chuang Tzu continues with:

 

 

Self And Other Give Rise To Each Other

Everything is its own self; everything is something else’s other.  Things do not know that they are other things’ other; they only know that they are themselves.  Thus it is said, the other arises out of the self, just as the self arises out of the other.  This is the theory that self and other give rise to each other.  Besides, where there is life, there is death; and where there is death, there is life.

Where the self and the other, or the this and the that, lose their contrariety, there we have the very essence of the Tao.  Only the essence of the Tao may occupy the center of the circle, and respond therefrom to the endless opinions from all directions.  Affirmation of the self is one of the endless opinions; denial of the other is another.  Therefore it is said that there is nothing better than to employ the light of reason.
 

[Marblehead]

All fell silent so Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Subtle Light

If you wish to shrink it,
You must initially stretch it.

If you wish to weaken it,
You must initially strengthen it.

If you wish to desert it,
You must initially work closely with it.

If you wish to snatch something from it,
You must initially give something to it.

Therefore,
He who is to be made small
Must first be caused to expand.

He who is to be weakened
Must first be made strong.

He who is to be laid low
Must first be exalted.

He who is to be taken away from
Must first be given to.

This is called the Subtle Light.

The submissive and weak conquer the strong.

 

 

 

[dawei]

This thread is really great and I only wish I saw it more frequently...

 

Carry on !

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Autumn Floods

The autumn floods had came.  Thousands of wild torrents poured furiously into the river.  It surged and flooded its banks until, looking across, you could not tell an ox from a horse on the other side.  Then the River Spirit laughed, delighted to think that all the beauty in the world had fallen into his keeping.  So downstream he swung, until he came to the ocean.  There he looked out over the waves, toward the empty horizon in the east and his face fell.  Gazing out at the far horizon he came to his senses and murmured to the Ocean Spirit, “Well, the proverb is right.  He who has got himself a hundred ideas thinks he knows more than anybody else.  Such a one am I.  Only now do I see what they mean by Expanse!”

The Ocean Spirit replied, “Can you talk about the sea to a frog in a well?  Can you talk about ice to dragonflies?  Can you talk about the way of Life to a doctor of philosophy?

“Of all the waters in the world the Ocean is greatest.  All the rivers pour into it day and night; it is never filled.  It gives back its waters day and night; it is never emptied.  In dry seasons it is not lowered.  In flood time it does not rise.  Greater than all other waters, there is no measure to tell how much greater!  But am I proud of it?  What am I under Heaven?  What am I without Yang and Yin?  Compared with the sky I am a little rock, a scrub oak on the mountain side.  Shall I act as if I were something?”
 

[blue eyed snake]

thank you, this is beautiful and appropriate

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

The Doctrine Of Reversion

“Shut up, Uncle River.  What do you know about the distinctions of the higher-class and lower-class houses and between the big and the small families?” said the Spirit of the North Sea.

“Then what should I do, and what should I not do?  What should I accept, and what should I reject?  What am I going to do?” asked the River Spirit.

“From the point of view of Tao,” said the Spirit of the North Sea, “what is higher class, and what is lower class?  For this is the doctrine of reversion.  Do not clutter up your mind with hard and fast notions, for this would be running opposite to Tao.  What is much and what is little?  Be grateful to Heaven for what you have.  Do not follow stubbornly one course of movement, for this would be to deviate from Tao.  Be strict with yourself, impartial with all others, like the ruler of a country, and at ease, like the sacrifice at the Spirit of Earth where prayers are offered for the common good.  Flow everywhere, in the vast and limitless expanse, abolishing all boundaries.  Love all creation equally.”
 

[Jeff]

Thank you MH. This is worth repeating....

 

"Flow everywhere, in the vast and limitless expanse, abolishing all boundaries."

[dawei]

Thank you MH. This is worth repeating.... "Flow everywhere, in the vast and limitless expanse, abolishing all boundaries."

 

I was talking to someone the other day about why I don't particularly like focusing on 'suffering'... it doesn't give one an idea of the source of it.  IMO, it is boundaries. 

[CloudHands]

I was talking to someone the other day about why I don't particularly like focusing on 'suffering'... it doesn't give one an idea of the source of it.  IMO, it is boundaries. 

 

I think it's symptoms. Doesn't anything happen for a reason ?

To me it's like tensions you have to listen to them to make them disappear. Back to the source, always.

[blue eyed snake]

I think it's symptoms. Doesn't anything happen for a reason ?

To me it's like tensions you have to listen to them to make them disappear. Back to the source, always.

 

well, whether you call it suffering, boundaries or tensions.

as long as you want them to disappear, you resist them.

 

and there simply is a lot of suffering going on that will not disappear, simple plain suffering. People having pain and illnesses that limit them in their doings, simple hurt that makes living hard. And those things very often can't be cured. they must be endured in the way that makes the suffering as small as possible.

 

But as long as you say listen to them and make them disappear...that doesn't feel right to me

[CloudHands]

well, whether you call it suffering, boundaries or tensions.

as long as you want them to disappear, you resist them.

 

and there simply is a lot of suffering going on that will not disappear, simple plain suffering. People having pain and illnesses that limit them in their doings, simple hurt that makes living hard. And those things very often can't be cured. they must be endured in the way that makes the suffering as small as possible.

 

But as long as you say listen to them and make them disappear...that doesn't feel right to me

 

About physical tensions I talk from experience. That's something I learnt praticing tai chi. If your shoulders are high because of anxiety/stress that's because your body transform your mental pain into one physical.

Most people ignore it so they carry tensions in their upper back but think they aren't tense. But they are physically and mentally. You have to accept (listen to it) then work to release these tension. So yes it's more complicated than just listening but it start from acceptance.

 

About mental disorders there is (for westerners) mostly 2 schools : cure the symptom or cure the person.

 

The first lead to understand who you are and what you have been through and why these painful parts of yourself became unconscious. So why you are in this actual state of suffering ? then accept it to go forward through an abreaction that have not been done precedently (it was overwhelming for the psyche at this moment, but time has pass and you are a stronger person now).

 

Second is "it's ok, take the pill".

 

But sure there is different kind of injuries and for now there is noway to regrow fingers or to live again a childhood/babyhood.

 

For me knowing myself better (physically and mentally; that's not so different) has been a good option.

[Marblehead]

After the chattering crowd moved on Chung Tzu continued:

 

 

On Finality

Of all the beings that exist, and there are millions, man is only one.  Among all the millions of men that live on Earth, the civilized people are only a small proportion.  Smaller still the number of those who having office or fortune, travel by carriage or by boat.  And of all these, one man in his carriage is nothing more than the tip of a hair on a horse’s flank.  Why, then, all the fuss about great men and great offices?  Why all the disputations of scholars?  Why all the wrangling of politicians?

There are no fixed limits; time does not stand still.  Nothing endures; nothing is final.  You cannot lay hold of the end or the beginning.  He who is wise sees near and far as the same; does not despise the small or value the great.  Where all standards differ, how can you compare?  With one glance he takes in past and present, without sorrow for the past or impatience with the present.  All is in movement.  He has experience of fullness and emptiness.  He does not rejoice in success or lament in failure.  The game is never over.  Birth and death are equal; the terms are not final.
 

[blue eyed snake]

About physical tensions I talk from experience. That's something I learnt praticing tai chi. If your shoulders are high because of anxiety/stress that's because your body transform your mental pain into one physical.

Most people ignore it so they carry tensions in their upper back but think they aren't tense. But they are physically and mentally. You have to accept (listen to it) then work to release these tension. So yes it's more complicated than just listening but it start from acceptance.

 

About mental disorders there is (for westerners) mostly 2 schools : cure the symptom or cure the person.

 

The first lead to understand who you are and what you have been through and why these painful parts of yourself became unconscious. So why you are in this actual state of suffering ? then accept it to go forward through an abreaction that have not been done precedently (it was overwhelming for the psyche at this moment, but time has pass and you are a stronger person now).

 

Second is "it's ok, take the pill".

 

But sure there is different kind of injuries and for now there is noway to regrow fingers or to live again a childhood/babyhood.

 

For me knowing myself better (physically and mentally; that's not so different) has been a good option.

 

Of course this is right, but it's not all of it. Even caring better for body and mind, knowing yourself better is not enough for a lot of people.

 

Pain/suffering of the body is pretty inevitable for a lot of people, especially when you get older or had...bad luck...

so then I start to see it as...the pain is in the body, but the suffering is in the mind...i think somewhere in this thread there is a nice story about someone getting a lot of nasty things with his body but being uncomplaining. That's what i aspire to learn.... but I'm not yet there 

 

That is about what i mean. Maybe MH can post a link to the story i mean

[blue eyed snake]

After the chattering crowd moved on Chung Tzu continued:

 

 

On Finality

 

Of all the beings that exist, and there are millions, man is only one.  Among all the millions of men that live on Earth, the civilized people are only a small proportion.  Smaller still the number of those who having office or fortune, travel by carriage or by boat.  And of all these, one man in his carriage is nothing more than the tip of a hair on a horse’s flank.  Why, then, all the fuss about great men and great offices?  Why all the disputations of scholars?  Why all the wrangling of politicians?

 

There are no fixed limits; time does not stand still.  Nothing endures; nothing is final.  You cannot lay hold of the end or the beginning.  He who is wise sees near and far as the same; does not despise the small or value the great.  Where all standards differ, how can you compare?  With one glance he takes in past and present, without sorrow for the past or impatience with the present.  All is in movement.  He has experience of fullness and emptiness.  He does not rejoice in success or lament in failure.  The game is never over.  Birth and death are equal; the terms are not final.

 

 

Marble, how do you think this is meant from a materialistic/philosophic point of view?

( i mean, you know how i see it, can't see it any other way, humans tend to get stuck in their grooves... so would like another perspective   )

[Marblehead]

Marble, how do you think this is meant from a materialistic/philosophic point of view?

( i mean, you know how i see it, can't see it any other way, humans tend to get stuck in their grooves... so would like another perspective   )

Yes, I do be a Materialist.

 

Yes, you do be a Spiritualist.

 

I have to look at this from the concept of "transmutation".  You know, everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be; however, everything takes on different forms and non-forms over time.

 

A Spiritualist would see different meaning in what you bolded above.

 

No right or wrong view here.  Only different views.

 

Afterall, eternity is a very long time.

[CloudHands]

Of course this is right, but it's not all of it. Even caring better for body and mind, knowing yourself better is not enough for a lot of people.

 

Pain/suffering of the body is pretty inevitable for a lot of people, especially when you get older or had...bad luck...

so then I start to see it as...the pain is in the body, but the suffering is in the mind...i think somewhere in this thread there is a nice story about someone getting a lot of nasty things with his body but being uncomplaining. That's what i aspire to learn.... but I'm not yet there 

 

That is about what i mean. Maybe MH can post a link to the story i mean

 

Sure, I understand better.

[Marblehead]

...i think somewhere in this thread there is a nice story about someone getting a lot of nasty things with his body but being uncomplaining. That's what i aspire to learn.... but I'm not yet there 

 

 

That is about what i mean. Maybe MH can post a link to the story i mean

I didn't see this earlier but yes, there is such a story.  I've forgotten where it is.