The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

A Community Of Heart

As for the Sage’s presence in the world;
He is one with it and dwells in the world
Peacefully, harmoniously,
And with the world he merges his mind.

The people of the world
Are brought into a community of heart
And all the people fix their eyes and ears on him
And the Sage treats them all as his children.
 

[Jeff]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

A Community Of Heart

 

As for the Sage’s presence in the world;

He is one with it and dwells in the world

Peacefully, harmoniously,

And with the world he merges his mind.

 

The people of the world

Are brought into a community of heart

And all the people fix their eyes and ears on him

And the Sage treats them all as his children.

 

 

Excellent. Very profound.  Thank you.

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Impartiality Of Tao

A canton consists of a community of people of different clans and families who are bound together by common customs.  It is a community of different units, which, when dispersed, become different again.  If you take the different parts of a horse separately, you do not get a horse.  But a horse surely stands there, by which we mean an animal which comes into being through the combination of the different parts of the horse’s body.

Little hillocks pile themselves up and become a mountain; streams flow into one another and become a great river.  The great man unties all things and becomes impartial.  Hence it is that his response to external surroundings is guided by a central self which disregards the individual parts, and his own initiative is dictated by a common standard.  The four seasons are different in temperature; thus it is possible to have a complete year.  The officials of the five departments have different duties conferred by the ruler; thus it is possible to have a unified nation.  The things of creation have different constitutions given by Tao.

Tao does not ‘do things’ and because it does not ‘do things’ everything is done.  There is a before and an after in time, and the world is in continual change.  Fortune and misfortune follow one another.  People usually look at things from their respective points of view, and miss the truth by wanting to correct others.  Tao may be compared to a great swamp, where timber of all kinds is grown.  Look at a great mountain; it tolerates trees and rocks on the same slope.
 

[Marblehead]

In continuing this present thought process Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Cultivating Virtue

When you cultivate the Tao in your person,
Your Virtue will then be genuine.

When you cultivate it in your family,
Your Virtue will then overflow.

When you cultivate it in your village,
Your Virtue will then be abundant.

When you cultivate it in your state,
Your Virtue will then prosper and be far-reaching.

When you cultivate it throughout the world,
Your Virtue will become universal and long-lasting.
 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu quickly replied:

 

 

The Disciple

A disciple complained to his master, “The eyes of all men seem to be alike, I detect no difference in them; yet some men are blind; their eyes do not see.  The ears of all men seem to be alike, I detect no difference in them; yet some men are deaf, their ears do not hear.  The minds of all men have the same nature, I detect no difference between them; but the mad cannot make another man’s mind their own.

Here am I, apparently like the other disciples, but there is a difference; they get your meaning and put it into practice, I cannot.  You tell me, ‘Hold your being secure and quiet, keep your life collected in its own center.  Do not allow your thoughts to be disturbed.’  But however hard I try, Tao is only a word in my ear.  It does not ring any bells inside.”

The Sage replied, “I have nothing more to say.  Bantams do not hatch goose eggs, though the goose can.  It is not so much a difference of nature as a difference of capacity.  My capacity is too slight to transform you.  Why not go south and see the Great Sage?”

The disciple got some supplies, traveled seven days and nights alone, and came to the Great Sage.  The Sage asked, “Who are all those people you have brought with you?” The disciple whirled around to look.  Nobody there.  Panic!  The Sage said, “Don’t you understand?”

The disciple hung his head.  Confusion!  Then a sigh.  “Alas, I have forgotten my answer.”  More confusion!  “I have also forgotten my question.”

The Sage said, “What are you trying to say?”

The disciple replied, “When I don’t know, people treat me like a fool.  When I do know, the knowledge gets me into trouble.  When I fail to be good, I hurt others.  When I do good, I hurt myself.  If I avoid my duty, I am remiss, but if I do it, I am ruined.  How can I get out of these contradictions?  That is what I came to ask you.”

The Sage replied, “A moment ago I looked into your eyes.  I saw you were hemmed in by contradictions.  Your words confirm this.  You are scared to death, like a child who has lost father and mother.  You are trying to sound the middle of the ocean with a six foot pole.  You have got lost, and are trying to find your way back to your own true self.  You find nothing but illegible signposts pointing in all directions.  I pity you.”

The disciple asked for admittance, took a cell, and there meditated, trying to cultivate qualities he thought desirable and get rid of others which he disliked.  Ten days of that!  Dispair!

“Miserable!” said the Sage.  “All blocked up!  Tied in knots!  Try to get untied!  If your obstructions are on the outside, do not attempt to grasp them one by one and thrust them away.  Impossible!  Learn to ignore them.  If they are within yourself, you cannot destroy them piecemeal, but you can refuse to let them take effect.  If they are both inside and outside, do not try to hold on to Tao, just hope that Tao will keep hold of you!”

The disciple groaned, “When a farmer gets sick and the other farmer comes to see him, if he can at least tell them what is the matter his sickness is not bad.  But as for me, in my search for Tao, I am like a sick man who takes medicine that makes him ten times worse.  Just tell me the first elements.  I will be satisfied!”

The Sage replied, “Can you embrace the One and not lose it?  Can you foretell good things and bad without the tortoise shell or the straws?  Can you rest where there is rest?  Do you know when to stop?  Can you mind your own business without cares, without desiring reports of how others are progressing?  Can you stand on your own feet?  Can you duck?  Can you be like an infant that cries all day without getting a sore throat or clenches his fist all day without getting a sore hand or gazes all day without eyestrain?  You want the first elements?  The infant has them.  Free from care, aware of self, he acts without reflection, stays where he is put, does not know why, does not figure things out, just goes along with them; is part of the current.  These are the first elements!”

The disciple asked, “Is this perfection?”

The Sage replied, “Not at all.  It is only the beginning.  This melts the ice.  This enables you to unlearn so that you can be led by Tao, be a child of Tao.

“If you persist in trying to attain what is never attainable; if you persist in making effort to obtain what effort cannot get; if you persist in reasoning about what cannot be understood, you will be destroyed by the very thing you seek.  To know when to stop; to know when you can go no further by your own actions; this is the right beginning!”


(The result of mingling action and inaction, of living both above the world and in it by necessity, is a state of mind called “mildness” or “mellowness” which is the chief virtue of a Taoist.

Mildness, calm, quietude and inaction are used together and almost interchangeably.  As the Tao is mild, so is the Taoist.)
 

[canacan]

What an enjoyable subject! Thank you so much Marblehead for the contributions.

 

I don't know much about TaoTeKing as I never felt attracted enough to it. But I feel some deep bond with the ZhuangZi, or mostly to ZhuangZi himself... The guy is wise and hilarious.

 

Based on Jean-François Billeter's studies and my own imagination, I tend to see ZZ's work as older than what we attribute to LZ. Suddenly everything makes more sense. ZZ would have an original philosophy not based on Daoism but mostly Confuciasnims and Mohism. He then takes long roads to explain what both for him and others would seem obscure (... and should partly stay obscure). I'd even think he doesn't care that much about Dao. Dao is a toy to reveal the strange ways of thinking, action, knowledge and transmission. If this is one subject, then this is the core of his work. Dao is the trick of the magician. Marvel is the gem.

 

Could not the author of TaoTeKing be a follower of ZhuangZi, who put the legend of LaoZi and some ideas of ZZ to good use for the current rulers of the state? Thus both cristalyzing some things about Dao, kind of betraying some ideas of ZZ and incidentally contributing to save him for posterity. He'd then be the true father of Daoism (under a false name, who cares?). ZhuangZi would then be the incidental and unintentional grandfather. Imagine him listening to Daoists today, wouldn't he laugh at them the way he laughed at Confucius and other serious people ?

 

Of course, I ramble as always. Irrationality and halfeducation are my norm.

Edited September 8, 2015 by canacan

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu collapsed into silence after that last rant.  All was silent for a while. 

 

After Chuang Tzu regained consciousness Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Use The World To Examine The World

Use the individual to examine the individual;
Use the family to examine the family;
Use the village to examine the village;
Use the state to examine the state;
And use the world to examine the world.
How do I know the world is so?
From within myself.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Nine Tests For Judging Men

“Man’s mind”, says the Sage, “is more treacherous than mountains and rivers, and more difficult to know than the sky.  For with the sky you know what to expect in respect of the coming of spring, summer, autumn and winter, and the alternation of day and night.  But man hides his character behind an inscrutable appearance.  There are those who appear tame and self-effacing, but conceal a terrible pride.  There are those who have some special ability but appear to be stupid.  There are those who are compliant and yielding but always get their objective.  Some are hard outside but soft inside, and some are slow without but impatient within.  Those who rush forward to do the righteous thing as if they were craving for it, drop it like something hot.”

Therefore, in the judgement of men, a gentleman sends a man to a distant mission in order to test his loyalty. He employs him near by in order to observe his manners.  He gives him a lot to do in order to judge his ability.  He suddenly puts a question to him in order to test his knowledge.  He makes a commitment with him under difficult circumstances to test his ability to live up to his word.  He trusts him with money in order to test his heart.  He announces to him the coming of a crisis to test his integrity.  He makes him drunk in order to see inside of his character, and puts him in female company to see his attitude toward women.  Submitted to these nine tests, a fool always reveals himself.
 

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu was expecting more from Chuang Tzu but nothing came forth.

 

After a while Lao Tzu decided to change the subject and said:

 

 

Beyond Love And Hate

He blocks up the holes,
Closes the doors,
Softens the glare,
Settles the dust,
Files down the sharp edges,
Submerges the turmoil,
And unties the tangles.
This is the Mystic Unity;
All submerged in One.
Then love and hatred cannot touch him.
Profit and loss cannot reach him.
Honor and disgrace cannot affect him.
Therefore is he always the honored one of the world.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

True Honor And Shame

If the whole world flattered him, he would not be affected thereby, nor if the whole world blamed him would he be dissuaded from what he was doing.  For the Sage can distinguish between the inner and outer reality, and understand what is true honor and shame.
 

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu waited for more but nothing came forth so after a short time Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Sage Rejects Nothing

Beautiful words can be bought and sold;
Noble conduct can be presented to others as gifts;
Even the things that people regard as no good;
Will they be rejected?
Though there be bad people,
Why reject them?
 

[Marblehead]

And Cuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Why Reject people?

“One who knows the truth about all-sufficiency seeks nothing, loses nothing, and rejects nothing.”
 

[Marblehead]

Silence.  Both just sat and watched the river flow.  Kinda' like sitting on the dock of the bay.

 

After some time, who knows how long?, Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Send Tao In Tribute

On the crowning of an emperor
And the appointment of the Ministers,
Rather than send tributes of jade
And teams of four horses,
Send in the tribute of Tao.

Wherein did the ancients prize this Tao?
Did they not say,
“Search for the guilty ones and pardon them”
And,
“Those who seek, with this will attain,
And those who commit offenses, with this will escape?!”

Therefore Tao is the treasure of the world;
It’s the most valued thing in the world.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Heaven Covers All Equally

Heaven covers all equally.  Earth supports all equally.
 

[Marblehead]

Again, a period of silence as Chuang Tzu had nothing further to say.

 

Eventually Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Act Without Acting


Accomplish do-nothing;
attend to no-affairs.

Taste the flavorless;
act without acting.

Serve without concern for affairs.

Those who act on it ruin it;
Those who try to hold on to it lose it.
Therefore the Sage does not act,
And as a result, he doesn’t ruin things;
He does not try to hold on to things,
And as a result, he doesn’t lose things.

In people’s handling of affairs,
They always ruin things
When they’re right at the point of completion.

Therefore we say,
“If you’re as careful at the end
As you were at the beginning,
You’ll have no failures.”

The Sage desires not to desire
And does not value goods that are hard to obtain.

He learns that which is unlearned,
And restores what the multitude have lost
That he may assist in the course of Nature
And not presume to interfere.

He could help all things to be natural,
Yet he dare not do it.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Learning What The Multitude Have Lost


Those who cultivate their abilities in mere worldly studies, hoping thereby to recover their original nature, and those who confuse the desires of their minds in worldly thoughts, hoping thereby to reach enlightenment; these are people seeking in the dark.
 

[Marblehead]

Both paused for a while watching the fish play (or were they trying to avoid being eaten?) enjoying the sunny day with a cool breeze coming off the river.

 

Eventually Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Be Good At Being Low


How did the great rivers and seas
Become the Lords of the Ravines?

The reason why rivers and oceans
Are able to be the kings of the one hundred valleys
Is that they are good at being below other things.

For this reason
They are able to be kings of the one hundred valleys.

Therefore,
In order to be the chief among the people,
One must speak like their inferior.

In order to be foremost among the people,
One must walk behind them.

Thus the Sage dwells above,
Yet the people do not regard him as heavy;
He dwells in front,
Yet the people do not see him as posing a threat.

The whole world delights in his praise
And never tires of him.
Is it not because he is not contentious,
That, as a result,
No one in the world can contend against him?!
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Being Like An Inferior To People

“A distinguished man who can act as other men’s inferior is sure to obtain the following of men.”

 

 

And then he quickly added:

 

 

The Great Sea

“The great sea does not object to flowing eastward (downward).”


 

[Marblehead]

Some clouds rolled in and a light rain started to fall.  The two decided to go to the cafe until the rain stopped.

 

They entered and both ordered a cup of wine.

 

After sipping on his Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Being Flawless


To know you don’t know is best.
Not to know you don’t know is a flaw.

Therefore, the Sage’s not being flawed
Stems from his recognizing a flaw as a flaw.
Therefore, he is flawless.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The One Who Knows

“One who does not know really knows, and one who thinks he knows really does not know.”

 

 

And then added:


Knowing Is Really Not Knowing

“Do you know that what you consider knowing is really not knowing?”
 

[dawei]

The Faith Of Virtue

 

The Sage accepts all people;

The good ones he declares good;

The bad ones he also declares good.

 

 

Beyond Love And Hate

 

This is the Mystic Unity;

All submerged in One.

 

 

The Sage Rejects Nothing

 

Even the things that people regard as no good;

Will they be rejected?

Though there be bad people,

Why reject them?

 

 

 

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Heaven Covers All Equally

 

Heaven covers all equally.  Earth supports all equally.

 

MH:  A really brilliant dialogue method...  Many thanks how you weave each other's thoughts and they then finish the others point

[Marblehead]

A short time passed then Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Tao Of Heaven


The Tao of Heaven is like the flexing of a bow.
The high, it presses down;
The low, it raises up.

From those with a surplus it takes away;
To those without enough it adds on.
Therefore the Tao of Heaven
Is to reduce the excess
And increase the insufficient.

Not so with man’s way;
Man takes away from those that have not enough
And gives it as tribute to those that have too much.
The way of man
Is to reduce the insufficient
And offer more to the excessive.

Now,
Who is able to have a surplus
And use it to offer to Heaven?
Clearly, it’s only the one who possesses the Tao.

Therefore the Sage takes actions
But does not possess them;
Accomplishes his tasks
But does not dwell on them.
Like this is his desire
Not to make a display of his worthiness.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu thought for a moment and then replied:

 

 

The Man Of Tao

The man in whom Tao acts without impediment harms no other being by his actions yet he does not know himself to be “kind”; to be “gentle”.  The man in whom Tao acts without impediment does not bother with his own interests but does not despise others who do.  He does not struggle to make money but does not make a virtue of poverty.  He goes his way without relying on others but does not pride himself on walking alone.  While he does not follow the crowd he won’t complain of those who do.  Rank and reward make no appeal to him; disgrace and shame do not deter him.  He is not always looking for right and wrong; always deciding “Yes” or “No”.   The ancients said, therefore,

“The man of Tao remains unknown.
Perfect Virtue produces nothing.
‘No-Self’ is ‘True-Self’,
and the greatest man is ‘Nobody.’”

To have enough is good luck, to have more than enough is harmful. This is true of all things but especially of money.
 

[Marblehead]

The rains had stopped, the sky cleared of clouds and the sun began drying the grass along the river bank so the two decided to go back outside and enjoy nature.

 

After settling down Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Patching Up Or Fixing Guilt


To make peace where there has been great resentment,
There is bound to be resentment left over.

Patching up a great hatred
Is sure to leave some hatred behind.
How could this be regarded as good?

The Sage holds the left tally,
The sign of inferiority in an agreement,
And does not put the guilt on the other party
And makes no demands of others.
For this reason,
The virtuous man is for patching up;
The vicious man is for fixing guilt.
 

[Stosh]

Ironic here , that a verdict of guilt- viciousness is attributed by the same quote suggesting a withheld verdict ,as virtue. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Stosh