The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

"... and the people lived in peace."  "What a lovely thought!", thought Lao Tzu.

 

 

Lao Tzu then said:

 

 

Tao Is Constantly Nameless


The Tao is constantly nameless.
Were marquises and kings able to maintain it,
The Ten Thousand Things
Would submit to them on their own,
And Heaven and Earth
Would unite to send forth sweet dew.
By Nature, it would fall equally on all things,
With no one among the people ordering that it be so.

Tao is absolute and has no name.
If kings and marquises can keep their unspoiled nature,
The whole world shall yield them
Lordship of their own accord.
The Heaven and Earth join,
And the sweet rain falls,
Beyond the command of men,
Yet evenly upon all.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Seek Repose In What The Human Mind Cannot Know

Te always leads up to the unity represented by Tao, and knowledge must seek repose in what the human mind cannot know.  That represents the limit of knowledge.  What is unified in Tao becomes differentiated in Te.  What the human consciousness cannot know is impossible for words to express.  It is fatal to argue with one another in a bid for fame and reputation.

Therefore, the great sea does not object to flowing eastwards (or downward); that is why it is great.  The Great Sage encompasses the entire Universe and his influence is felt throughout the world, and yet we do not know his family name.  Therefore, in his lifetime, he has no rank, and after his death, he receives no posthumous title.  He accumulates nothing and does not make a name for himself.  Such is what we call a great man.

A dog is not considered good because of his barking, and a man is not considered clever because of his ability to talk.  How much more is this true of the man of Character?  To be great is to be complete in itself.  What is more self-sufficient than the Universe, but does it ever seek for anything in order to achieve all-sufficiency?  One who knows the truth about all-sufficiency seeks nothing, loses nothing, and rejects nothing. He does not allow his own nature to be affected by material things.  He seeks it within himself and finds infinity there; he follows the ancients but he is not servile to them.  Such is the substance of the great man.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu suggested they go back out to the riverbank to watch the fishes and Lao Tzu agreed that they should.

 

After getting settled Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Exalt Not The Wise


Exalt not the wise
So that the people shall not scheme and contend;
Prize not rare objects
So that the people shall not steal;
Shut out from sight the things of desire
So that the people’s hearts shall not be disturbed.

Therefore
In the government of the Sage,
He keeps them empty-hearted (open-minded),
And makes full their bellies.
He discourages their ambitions
And strengthens their frames
So that the people
May be innocent of knowledge and desires
And the cunning ones shall not presume to interfere.

He constantly causes the people to be
Without knowledge and without desires.
By action without deeds may all live in peace.
If lords and kings could be like the Tao
And persist in this attitude of nonintervention,
The Ten Thousand Creatures
Would soon follow its example of their own accord;
And if they should show any passion,
They would be tamed
With the simplicity of the nameless,
And then they would be passionless.
Being passionless,
They would be still,
And peace would follow naturally.
 

[Marblehead]

Without hesitation Chuang Tzu responded with:

 

 

Exalt Not The Wise; A World Of Unconscious Goodness

In the world of perfect peace, no value was placed upon exalting the wise, or putting the capable men in position.  The ruler was like the top of a tree, unconsciously there, and the people lived like the deer of the forest.  Doing right, they did not know that it was called justice; “Doing their duty.”  Kind to one another, they did not know it was called humanity; “Love of neighbor.”  They were straight and did not know it was called faithfulness; “Men to be trusted.”  They were proper, and did not know it was called honesty; “Men of good faith.”  They moved about and called to one another for help, and did not call it favor; “Being generous.”  For this reason their actions left no trace and their events left no record.  Their deeds have not been narrated; they made no history.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Knowledge Is The Instrument Of Contention

Do you realize how one’s character is lost and where knowledge leads?  A man loses his character through the desire for fame, and knowledge and desires lead to contention.  In the struggle for fame, men crush each other, while their knowledge is but an instrument for scheming and contention.  These two are instruments of evil and lead one away from the moral life.
 

[Stosh]

Possibly quite true , but in order to make this assertive instruction , one sets himself up for contention ,,, and therefore must also understand the pragmatic value of taking a stance-  themselves.  The thing then ,is whether the contention is actually over fame. Not whether one is taking a contentious stance.   Its would be a false assumption to contend , all contention is done for evil reasons , it would implicate the author on those grounds as well. How then is Chuang tzu exempt from his own declaration?

Edited November 11, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Note to the thread:  Yes, I am not responding to posts in this thread although I appreciate the interest.  It is my intention, after the end of the conversations between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, to go back through the entire thread and respond to all the comments made that I have not already responded to.

 

Please have patience with me.

[Marblehead]

After a few moments Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

The Five Enemies

With wood from a hundred-year-old tree they make sacrificial vessels, covered with green and yellow designs.  The wood that was cut away lies unused in the ditch.  If we compare the sacrificial vessels with the wood in the ditch we find them to differ in appearance, one is more beautiful than the other yet they are equal in this, both have lost their original nature.  So if you compare the robber and the respectable citizen you find that one is, indeed, more respectable than the other, yet they agree in this, they have both lost the original simplicity of man.

How did they lose it?  Here are the five ways:  Love of colors bewilders the eye and it fails to see right.  Love of harmonies bewitches the ear and it loses its true hearing.  Love of perfumes fills the head with dizziness.  Love of flavors ruins the taste.  Desires unsettle the heart until the original nature runs amok.

These five are enemies of true life.  Yet these are what “men of discernment” claim to live for.  They are not what I live for.  If this is life, then pigeons in a cage have found happiness!
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

The Doctrine Of Inaction

There has been such a thing as letting mankind alone and tolerance; there has never been such a thing as efficiently governing mankind.  Letting alone springs from the fear lest men’s natural dispositions be perverted, and tolerance springs from the fear lest their character be corrupted.  But if their natural dispositions be not perverted, nor their character corrupted, what need is there left for government?

In days long past the empire was governed by a ruler who made the people live happily; consequently the people struggled to be happy and became restless.  Then the empire was governed by one who made the people live in misery; consequently the people regarded life as a burden and were discontented.  Restlessness and discontent are subversive of man’s Character; and without Character there has never been such a thing as stability.
 

[Marblehead]

With still more to say Chunag Tzu continued:

 

 

Fulfilling The Natural Instincts Of Life

When man rejoices greatly, he gravitates towards Yang.  When he is in great sorrow, he gravitates towards Yin.  When the equilibrium of positive and negative is disturbed, the four seasons are upset, and the balance of heat and cold is destroyed.  Man himself suffers physically thereby.  It causes men to rejoice and sorrow inordinately, to live disorderly lives, be vexed in their thoughts, and lose their pattern and norm of conduct.  When that happens, then the whole world seethes with revolt and discontent.  Offer the entire world as rewards for the good or threaten the wicked with the dire punishments of the entire world, and it is still insufficient to reform them. Consequently, with the entire world, one cannot furnish sufficient inducements or deterrents to action.  The world now lives in a helter-skelter of promotions and punishments.  What chance have the people left for fulfilling peacefully the natural instincts of their lives?

Therefore, when a gentleman is unavoidably compelled to take charge of the government of the empire, there is nothing better than inaction; letting alone.  By means of inaction only can he allow the people to fulfill peacefully the natural instincts of their lives.  Therefore he who values the world as his own self may be entrusted with the government of the world; and he who loves the world as his own self may be entrusted with the care of the world.

If the gentleman can refrain from disturbing the internal economy of man and glorifying the powers of sight and hearing, he can sit still like a corpse or spring into action like a dragon, be silent as the deep or talk with the voice of thunder, the movements of his soul calling forth the natural mechanism of Heaven.  He can remain calm and leisurely do nothing while all things are brought to maturity and thrive.  What need then would he have to set about governing the world?
 

[Marblehead]

And then, as an after-thought, Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

The Sage In Government

Even though the Sage may be in the midst of government, his mind seems to be in the mountain forest.  His adobe is in the Ten Thousand Things, but it does not mean that he does not wander freely.
 

[Marblehead]

At that point silence consumed the river bank.  Both sat quietly.

 

Eventually Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Profound Virtue


Give birth to them and nourish them.
Give birth to them but don’t try to own them;
Help them to grow but don’t rule them.
This is called Profound Virtue.

To give birth, to nourish,
To give birth without taking possession,
To act without appropriation,
To be chief among men without managing them;
This is the Mystic Virtue.
 

[Marblehead]

Having rested, Chuang Tzu immediately responded with:

 

 

Leaving Things Alone

I know about letting the world alone, not interfering.  I do not know about running things.  Letting things alone so that men will not blow their nature out of shape!  Not interfering, so that men will not be changed into something they are not!  When men do not get twisted and maimed beyond recognition, when they are allowed to live, the purpose of government is achieved.

Too much pleasure?  Yang has too much influence.  Too much suffering?  Yin has too much influence.  When one of these outweighs the other, it is as if the seasons come at the wrong times.  The balance of cold and heat is destroyed; the body of man suffers.

Too much happiness, too much unhappiness; out of due time, men are thrown off balance.  What will they do next?  Thought runs wild.  No control.  They start everything, finish nothing.  Here competition begins, here the idea of excellence is born, and robbers appear in the world.

Now the whole world is not enough reward for the “good,” nor enough punishment for the “wicked.”  Since now the world itself is not big enough for reward or punishment.  How can they find time to be human?
 

[Marblehead]

Ad Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

By Taking No Action

By taking no action is not meant folding one’s arms and closing one’s mouth.  If we simply let everything act by itself, it will be contented with its nature and destiny.  To have no alternative but to rule an empire is not to be forced into doing so by power or punishment.  If only Tao is embraced and simplicity cherished, and what has to be is allowed to run its maximum course, then the world will naturally be contented with itself.
 

[Marblehead]

A short silence followed while both watched the fishes jumping about.

 

And then Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Embrace Thy Original Nature


Manifest plainness and embrace the genuine;
Lessen self-interest and make few your desires;
Eliminate learning and have no undue concern.
Banish wisdom, discard knowledge;
The people shall benefit a hundredfold.

Banish “humanity”, discard “justice”;
The people will return to filial piety and compassion.
Banish cunning, throw away profit;
Then we will have no robbers and thieves.

The people have need of what they can depend upon.
Reveal thy simple, unadorned, uncultured self,
Embrace thy original nature,
Check thy selfishness,
Curtail thy desires.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

Opening Trunks

The precautions taken against thieves who open trunks, search bags, or ransack cabinets, consist in securing with cords and fastening with bolts and locks.  This is what the world calls wit.  But a big thief comes along and carries off the cabinet on his shoulders, with box and bag, and runs away with them.  His only fear is that the cords and locks should not be strong enough!  Therefore, does not what the world calls wit simply amount to saving up for the strong thief?  And I venture to state that nothing of that which the world calls wit is otherwise than saving up for big thieves; and nothing of that which the world calls sage wisdom is other than hoarding up for robbers.

How can this be shown?  Of old, many learned men have been beheaded, disemboweled, sliced to death, and thrown to the waves.  All these were learned ones, but they could not preserve themselves from death by punishment.

An apprentice to a great robber asked him, saying, “Is there then honor among thieves?”

“Tell me if there is anything in which there is not Tao,” the robber replied.  “There is the sage character of thieves by which booty is located, the courage to go in first, and the chivalry of coming out last.  There is the wisdom of calculating success, and kindness in the equal division of the spoils.  There has never yet been a great robber who was not possessed of these five qualities.”

It is seen therefore that without the teachings of the learned men, good men could not keep their position, and the great robber could not accomplish his ends.  Now, since good men are scarce and bad men are the majority, the good the learned ones do to the world is little and the evil great.

When knowledge arose, gangsters appeared.  Overthrow the learned ones and set the gangsters free, and then will the empire be in order.  When the streams cease, the gully dries up, and when the hill is leveled the chasm is filled.  When knowledge is dead gangsters will not appear and the empire will rest in peace.  On the other hand, if knowledge is not diminished, neither will the gangsters drop off.  Not if you double the number of men wherewith to govern the empire will you do more than double the profits of the robbers.

If pecks and bushels are used for measurement, the pecks and bushels themselves will also be stolen, along with the rice.  If scales and steelyards are used for weighing, the scales and steelyards themselves will also be stolen, along with the goods.  If tallies and signets are used for good faith, the tallies and signets will also be stolen.  If humanity and justice are used for moral principles, humanity and justice will also be stolen.

How is this so?  Steal a hook and you hang as a crook; steal a kingdom and you are made a king.  The teachings of humanity and justice remain in the king’s domain.  Is it not true, then, that they are thieves of humanity and justice?

So it is that those who follow the way of brigandage are promoted into princes and dukes.  Those who are bent on stealing humanity and justice together with the measures, scales, tallies, and signets can be dissuaded by no rewards of official regalia and uniform, nor deterred by fear of sharp instruments of punishment.  This doubling the profits of robbers, making it impossible to stop them, is the fault of knowledge.

Therefore it has been said, “Fishes must be left in the water; the sharp weapons of a state must be left where none can see them.”  The learned ones are the sharp weapons of the world; they must not be shown to the world.

Banish wisdom, discard knowledge, and gangsters will stop!  Fling away jade and destroy pearls, and petty thieves will cease. Burn tallies and break signets, and the people will revert to their uncouth integrity.  Split measures and smash scales, and the people will not fight over quantities.  Trample down all the institutions of the learned ones, and the people will begin to be fit for discussing Tao.  Confuse the six pitch-pipes, confine flutes and string instruments to the flames, and each man will keep his own sense of hearing.  Put an end to decorations, confuse the five colors, and each man will keep his own sense of sight.  Destroy arcs and lines, fling away squares and compasses, snap off the fingers of the artisan, and each man will use his own natural skill.  Discard humanity and justice, and the Character of the people will arrive at Mystic Unity.
 

[Marblehead]

After only a short pause Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

On Not Interfering With The Natural Goodness Of The Heart Of Man

A disciple asked the Sage, saying, “If the empire is not to be governed, how are men’s hearts to be kept good?”

“Be careful,” replied the Sage, “not to interfere with the natural goodness of the heart of man.  Man’s heart may be forced down or stirred up.  In each case the issue is fatal.  By gentleness, the hardest heart may be softened.  But try to cut and polish it, and it will glow like fire or freeze like ice.  In the twinkling of an eye it will pass beyond the limits of the Four Seas.  In repose, it is profoundly still; in motion, it flies up to the sky.  Like an unruly horse, it cannot be held in check.  Such is the human heart.”

“At the beginning of the decline of Tao, the emperor first interfered with the natural goodness of the heart of man by means of humanity and justice.  In consequence, rulers wore the hair off their legs and the flesh off their arms in endeavoring to feed their people’s bodies.  They tortured the people’s internal economy in order to conform to humanity and justice.  They exhausted the people’s energies to live in accordance with the laws and statutes.  Even then they did not succeed.  Then came confusion between joy and anger, fraud between the simple and the cunning, recrimination between the virtuous and the evil-minded, slander between the honest and the liars, and the world order collapsed.”

“When man’s original Character lost its unity, men’s lives were frustrated.  When there was a general rush for knowledge, the people’s desires ever went beyond their possessions.  The next thing was then to invent axes and saws, to kill by laws and statutes, to disfigure by chisels and awls.  The empire seethed with discontent, the blame for which rests upon those who interfered with the natural goodness of the heart of man.”

“In consequence, virtuous men sought refuge in mountain caves, while rulers of great states sat trembling in their ancestral halls.  Then, when dead men lay about pillowed on each other’s corpses, when chained prisoners jostled each other in crowds and condemned criminals were seen everywhere, then the learned men bustled about and rolled up their sleeves in the midst of handcuffs and fetters!  Alas, they know not shame, not what it is to blush!”

“Until I can say that the wisdom of the learned ones is not a fastener of chains, and that humanity and justice are not handcuffs and shackles, how should I know that they were not the singing arrows (signal for attack) of the gangsters?  Therefore it is said, ‘Abandon wisdom and discard knowledge, and the empire will be at peace.’”
 

[Marblehead]

And still fired up, Chuang Tzu continued with:

 

 

The Robber

Throughout the land, from village to village, you could hear cocks crowing and dogs barking.  Fishermen cast their nets, ploughmen ploughed the wide fields; everything was neatly marked out by boundary lines.  For five hundred square miles there were temples for ancestors, altars for field spirits and corn spirits.  Every canton, county, and district was run according to the laws and statutes until one morning the attorney general did away with the king and took over the whole state.

Was he content to steal the land?  No!  He also took over the laws and statutes at the same time, and all the lawyers with them, not to mention the police.  They all formed part of the same package.

Of course, the people called the attorney general a robber, but they left him alone, to live as happy as the patriarchs.  No small state would say a word against him, no large state would make a move in his direction, so for twelve generations the state belonged to his family.  No one interfered with his inalienable rights.
 

[Marblehead]

And while speaking of robbery Chuang Tzu decided to add:

 

 

On Robbery

The invention of weights and measures makes robbery easier.  Signing contracts, setting seals, makes robbery more sure.  Teaching love and duty provides a fitting language with which to prove that robbery is really for the general good.  A poor man must swing for stealing a belt buckle but if a rich man steals a whole state he is acclaimed as statesman of the year.

Hence if you want to hear the very best speeches on love, duty, justice, etc., listen to statesmen.  But when the creek dries up nothing grows in the valley.  When the mound is leveled the hollow next to it is filled.  And when the statesmen and lawyers and preachers of duty disappear there are no more robberies either and the world is at peace.

Moral:  The more you pile up ethical principles and duties and obligations to bring everyone in line, the more you gather loot for a thief.  By ethical argument and moral principle the greater crimes are eventually shown to have been necessary, and, in fact, a benefit to mankind.
 

[Marblehead]

And still Chuang Tzu had more to say so he continued with:

 

 

Advising The Prince

The Sage had come to see the Prince.  The Prince was glad.  “I have desired,” he said, “to see you for a long time.  Tell me if I am doing right.  I want to love my people, and by the exercise of justice, to put an end to war.  Is this enough?”

“By no means,” said the Sage.  “Your love for your people puts them in mortal danger.  Your exercise of justice is the root of war after war!  Your grand intentions will end in disaster!

“If you set out to accomplish something great, you only deceive yourself.  Your love and justice are fraudulent.  They are mere pretexts for self-assertion; for aggression.  One action will bring on another and in the chain of events your hidden intentions will be made plain.

“You claim to practice justice.  Should you seem to succeed, success itself will bring more conflict.  Why all these guards standing at attention at the palace gate, around the temple altar, everywhere?  Are you at war with yourself!?  You do not believe in justice, only in power and success.  If you overcome an enemy and annex his country you will be even less at peace with yourself than you are now.  Nor will your passions let you sit still.  You will fight again and again for the sake of a more perfect exercise of ‘justice’!

“Abandon your plan to be a loving and equitable ruler.  Try to respond to the demands of inner truth.  Stop vexing yourself and your people with these obsessions!  Your people will breathe easily at last.  They will live and war will end by itself!”
 

[Brian]

There is much to be learned from studying ancient texts.

[Marblehead]

Finally Chuang Tzu fell silent.  Silence reigned for a while then Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Provide For The Belly And Not For The Eyes

The five colors blind the eyes of man;
The five musical notes deafen the ears of man;
The five flavors dull the taste of man;
Horse-racing and hunting and chasing
Madden the minds of man;
Rare, valuable goods
Keep their owners awake at night.

Therefore the Sage
Provides for the belly and not for the eyes;
Provides for the inner self
And not for the external self,
Not for the sensuous world.
Hence, he rejects the one and accepts the other.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Five Senses Detract From Our Nature

There are five ways in which we lose our original nature.  First, the five colors confuse the eye and obstruct our vision.  Second, the five notes confuse the ear and obstruct our hearing.  Third, the five smells assail our nostrils and block up our forehead. Fourth, the five tastes foul the mouth and hurt our taste. Fifth, desires and occupations confuse our mind and cause agitation of our soul.

All these do injury to our life, and yet many men regard them as means toward fulfillment.  That is not what I would regard as fulfillment.  For if fulfillment means enslavement, how can it be regarded as fulfillment?  If so, then the pigeon and the owl in a cage may regard themselves as having fulfilled themselves.  Besides, if a man’s mind is enclosed in a fur cap, or a kingfisher hat, and belts and ceremonial tablets, his mind a mass of stuffed confusion inside and his body a bundle of entanglements outside, and he still claims self-fulfillment from behind that bundle of entanglements, then the convict whose hands are tied behind his back and whose fingers are in a squeezer, and the tigers and leopards behind the bars, may also claim fulfillment of their nature.
 

[Marblehead]

Taking this thought further, Chuang tzu said:

 

 

Action Of The Wind On Water

When a wind passes over the ocean, it takes away something from the ocean.  When the sun shines on the ocean, it also takes away something from the ocean.  Yet if you ask the wind and the sun to keep on acting on the ocean, the ocean is not conscious of its loss because it is fed by a living source.  Such is the gradual, intimate action of water upon the Earth, the gradual, intimate relation between shadow and substance and the gradual, intimate action of material things upon other things.  Therefore the eye is harmful to the innate capacity of vision, the ear is harmful to the innate capacity of hearing, and the mind is harmful to the innate capacity of understanding.  All functions are harmful to their respective organs.  When the harm is done, it is beyond repair, for such effects accumulate and grow.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Distractions Of The Material World

For a long time now there is no man but has changed his nature on account of material things.  The common men sacrifice their lives for profit; the scholars sacrifice their lives for fame; the noblemen sacrifice their lives for their families; the learned sacrifice their lives for the world.  All these people have different professions and their reputations vary, but in suffering injury to their original nature, they are alike.

Two shepherds were both tending their sheep and both lost them.  On being asked what he was doing, the first replied that he was reading with the shepherd’s stick under his arm.  On being asked what he was doing, the second replied that he was gambling.  The manner in which the two lost their sheep was different, but the fact of their losing their sheep was the same.