The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu became breathless and had to stop talking.

 

There was silence for a while then Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Restoring The Original Character

When you use the Tao to govern the world,
Evil spirits will not have omnipotent power.
Actually,
It’s not that evil spirits
Will not have omnipotent powers,
It’s that their power will not harm men.
Then the original Character of the world is restored.
 

[Marblehead]

After a short break Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Sage Does No Harm To The People

The Sage lives in accordance with Tao and therefore the evil spirits do not harm him.  

The Sage lives with people, but does no harm to the people.  Who does no harm to other people cannot be harmed by others.  Only one who is beyond harm can go about freely among the people.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu had nothing more to say.

 

After a while Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Female Overcomes With Tranquillity

The large state is like the lower part of a river;
It is the female of the world;
It is the meeting point of the world.

The female constantly
Overcomes the male with tranquillity.

Because she is tranquil,
Therefore she is fittingly underneath.

Therefore if a big country
Places itself below a small country,
It absorbs the small country.

What a big country wants is but to shelter others,
And what a small country wants
Is but to be able to come in and be sheltered.

Thus considering that both may have what they want,
A big country ought to place itself low.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu responded:

 

 

The Great Sea

“The great sea does not object to flowing eastwards (or downwards).”
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu must be getting tired as he had nothing more to offer.

 

The two watched the fishes for a while then Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Arriving At The Great Accord

Those who practiced the Tao in antiquity
Did not use it to enlighten the people.

 

Rather,
They used it to make them dumb.

Now,
The reason why people are difficult to rule
Is because of their knowledge.

 

As a result,
To use knowledge to rule the state
Is thievery of the state.

 

To use ignorance to rule the state
Is kindness to the state.

 

One who constantly understands these two,
Also understands the principles of Nature.
To constantly understand the principles;
This is called Profound Virtue.
Profound Virtue is deep, it is far-reaching,
And together with things it returns to its source.
Thus we arrive at the Great Accord.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu thought for a moment then said:

 

 

The Origin Of World Chaos

Nowadays anyone can make the people strain their necks and stand on tiptoes by saying, “In such and such a place there is a Sage.”  Immediately they put together a few provisions and hurry off, neglecting their parents at home and their master’s business abroad, going on foot through the territories of the princes, and riding hundreds of miles away.  Such is the evil effect of the ruler’s desire for knowledge.  When the rulers desire knowledge and neglect Tao, the empire is overwhelmed in confusion.

How can this be shown?  When the knowledge of bows and cross-bows and hand-nets and tailed arrows increases, then there is confusion among the birds of the air.  When the knowledge of hooks and bait and nets and traps increases, then there is confusion among the fishes of the deep.  When the knowledge of fences and nets and snares increases, then there is confusion among the beasts of the field.  When cunning and deceit and flippancy and the sophistries of the “hard” and “white” and identities and differences increase in number and variety, then they overwhelm the world with logic.

Therefore it is that there is often chaos in the world, and the love of knowledge is ever at the bottom of it.  For all men strive to grasp what they do not know, while none strive to grasp what they already know; and all strive to discredit what they do not excel in, while none strive to discredit what they do excel in.  That is why there is chaos.  Thus, above, the splendor of the Heavenly bodies is dimmed; below, the power of land and water is burned up, while in between the influence of the four seasons is upset.  There is not one tiny worm that moves on Earth or an insect that flies in the air but has lost its original nature.  Such indeed is the world chaos caused by the desire for knowledge!

The simple and the guileless have been set aside; the specious and the cunning have been exalted.  Tranquil inaction has given place to love of disputation; and disputation alone is enough to bring chaos upon the world.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu must have had a good rest as he immediately continued with:

 

 

The Harm Done To Man’s Nature

In the days before man became obsessed with knowledge the people did nothing in particular at their homes and went nowhere in particular on their walks.  Having food, they rejoiced; tapping their bellies, they wandered about.  Thus far the natural capacities of the people carried them.  Then the learned ones came to make them bow and bend with ceremonies and music in order to regulate the external forms of intercourse, and dangled humanity and justice before them in order to keep their minds in submission.  Then the people began to labor and develop a taste for knowledge, and to struggle with one another in their desire for gain, to which there is no end.
 

[Marblehead]

And continuing Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

The Danger Of Showing Oneself

There was a master who became famous for his wisdom, and the people began to venerate him as a Sage.  He avoided their homage and refused their gifts.  He kept himself hidden and would not let them come to see him.  His disciples remonstrated with him, and declared that it had been the tradition for wise men to accept veneration, and thus exercise a good influence.

The master replied, “Come here, my children, listen to this.  If a beast large enough to swallow a wagon should leave its mountain forest, it will not escape the hunter’s trap.  If a fish big enough to swallow a boat lets itself be stranded by the outgoing tide, then even ants will destroy it.  So birds fly high, beast remain in trackless solitudes, keeping out of sight; and fishes and turtles go deep down, down to the very bottom.  The man who has some respect for his person keeps his carcass out of sight; hides himself as perfectly as he can.

“If the virtuous are honored, the world will be filled with envy.  If the smart man is rewarded, the world will be filled with thieves.  You cannot make men good and honest by praising virtue and knowledge.  Since the days of the learned ones everybody has been trying to get rich.  A son will kill his father for money, a minister will  murder his sovereign to satisfy his ambition.  In broad daylight they rob each other, at midnight they break down walls.  The root of all this was planted when man began to search for knowledge.  The branches will grow for a thousand ages, and a thousand ages from now men will be eating one another raw!”
 

[Marblehead]

During the short pause Chuang Tzu switched to reverse breathing because he had more to say.

 

 

Symphony For A Sea Bird

You cannot put a big load in a small bag, nor can you, with a short rope, draw water from a deep well.  You cannot talk to a power politician as if he were a wise man.  If he seeks to understand you, if he looks inside himself to find the truth you have told him, he cannot find it there.  Not finding, he doubts.  When a man doubts, he will kill.

Have you not heard how a bird from the sea was blown inshore and landed outside the capital?

The Prince ordered a solemn reception, offered the sea bird wine in the sacred precinct, called for musicians to play the great compositions and slaughtered cattle to nourish it.  Dazed with symphonies, the unhappy sea bird died of despair.

How should you treat a bird?  As yourself or as a bird?  Ought not a bird to nest in deep woodland or fly over meadow and marsh?  Ought it not to swim on river and pond, feed on eels and fish, fly in formation with other waterfowl, and rest in the reeds?

Bad enough for a sea bird to be surrounded by men and frightened by their voices!  That was not enough!  They killed it with music!

Play all the symphonies you like on the marshlands, the birds will fly away in all directions; the animals will hide; the fish will dive to the bottom; but men will gather around and listen.

Water is for fish and the air is for birds.  Natures differ, and needs with them.

Hence the wise men of old did not lay down one measure for all.
 

[Marblehead]

And with a little breath left Chuang Tzu added:

 

 

The Man With One Foot

A Sage had gone to the city and  saw a maimed official whose left foot had been cut off; a penalty in the political game!

“What kind of man,” he cried, “is this one-footed oddity?  How did he get that way?  Shall we say man did this, or Heaven?”

“Heaven,” he said, “this comes from Heaven, not from man.  When Heaven gave this man life, it willed he should stand out from others and sent him into politics to get himself distinguished.  See!  One foot!  This man is different.”
 

[Stosh]

Obviously foolish , since the crowd didnt care what he had to say anyway. 

[Marblehead]

After a short period of silence Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Sage Accepts Gentility

When the people don’t respect those in power,
Then what they greatly fear is about to arrive.
Rule a big country as you would fry small fish;
Let alone, or the fish will become paste
By constant turning about.
Don’t narrow the size of the places
In which the people live.
Don’t oppress them in their means of livelihood.
It’s simply because you do not oppress them
That they therefore will not be fed up.

Govern the people with love and consideration,
You will be able to avoid intervening!
Therefore the Sage knows himself
But doesn’t show himself;
He cherishes himself
But doesn’t value himself.
For this reason,
He rejects force and accepts gentility.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu remained silent.  Apparently he had nothing to say or he had fallen asleep.

 

After a while Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Fear Of Death

If the people were constant in their behavior
And yet did not fear death,
How could you use execution to intimidate them?
If you brought it about
That the people were constant in their behavior
And moreover feared death,
And we took those who behaved in abnormal ways
And killed them;
Who would dare act in this way?!
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

On Promotions And Punishments

 

“Since the days of the learned ones the world has lived in a helter-skelter of promotions and punishments.  What chance have the people left for fulfilling peacefully the natural instincts of their lives?”

[Marblehead]

Then there was silence.  The fish were jumping.  Either playing or running away from something that wanted to eat them.

 

After a while Lao Tzu said:

 

 

Interfere Not With The People

The reason why people starve
Is because government takes so much in tax-grain;
Therefore they starve.
The unruliness of hungry people
Is due to the interference of their rulers;
That is why the people are unruly.
The people are not afraid of death
Because they are anxious to make a living;
That is why they are not afraid of death.
It is those who interfere not with the people’s living
That are wise in exalting life.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

To Live Peacefully

 

“For it is not difficult to get the people to live peacefully with one another.”

[Marblehead]

Silence.  Surely Chuang Tzu is getting tired.

 

After a while Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Weak Can Defeat The Strong

In the whole world,
Nothing is softer and more yielding than water,
And yet for attacking the hard and strong,
Nothing can surpass it
Because there is nothing you can use to replace it.
That water can defeat the unyielding;
That the weak can defeat the strong;
There is no one in the whole world who doesn’t know it,
And yet there are few who can put it into practice.
For this reason, the words of the ancients say,
“To take on yourself the disgrace of the state;
This is called
Being the lord of the altars of Earth and grain;
To assume responsibility
For all ill-omened events in the state;
This is called being the king of the world.”

It is also said by the ancients that
“Who receives unto himself the calumny of the world
Is the preserver of the world.
Who bears himself the sins of the world
Is the king of the world.”

Correct words seem to say
The reverse of what you expect them to say.
 

[Marblehead]

Noticing that Chuang Tzu had fallen soundly asleep Lao Tzu decided to tell to the wind the last two concepts remaining in his mind that he wished to speak to.

 

 

Gentleness Overcomes Strength


Gentleness overcomes strength.

Fish should not be taken out of the depths,
They should be left in the deep pool,
And the state’s sharp weapons
Should not be shown to the people,
They should be left where none can see them.

 

 

And lastly:

 

 

Let The Country Be Small

Let the country be small and people few.

Bring it about
That there are weapons for “tens” and “hundreds”,
Yet let no one use them except in defense.
Have the people regard death gravely
And put migrating far from their minds.
Though they might have boats and carriages,
No one will ride them;
Though they might have armor and spears,
No one will display them.
Have the people
Return to knotting cords and using them.
They will relish their food,
Regard their clothing as beautiful,
Delight in their customs,
And feel safe and secure in their homes.
Neighboring states might overlook one another,
And the sounds of chickens and dogs might be overheard,
Yet the people will arrive at old age and death
With no comings and goings between them.
Then there would indeed be perfect peace.


 

[Marblehead]

Well, that's it folks.

 

We now have a record of the concepts of Lao Tzu with the comments to those concepts by Chuang Tzu.

 

This thread is now open for any and all discussions.

[AussieTrees]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Thankyou a lot,spanning one year and one month,what a great topic and effort.

 

Tao

Te

Ching

 

One

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.

The named is the mother of ten thousand things.

Ever desireless,one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring,one can see the manifestations.

These two spring from the same source but differ in name;this appears as darkness.

Darkness within darkness.

The gate to all mystery."

 

Seems we go full circle in understanding this mysterious Unknown.

Edited January 28, 2016 by AussieTrees

[Stosh]

Bump

[Marblehead]

... and grind.

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I'm ready to get back to this.

 

It was on page 8 that the active discussions stopped and I mostly presented the exchanges between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu without making many comments in response to others' posts so I will be starting with page 9 and make any additional comments to the posts of others if appropriate.

[Marblehead]

Therefore it is impossible to speak of it because it cannot be defined. It is literally absolutely nothing.

This speaks directly to my understanding that the word "Tao" is a verb and not a noun.

 

Shortly after I first joined this site I had one heck of a discussion regarding the reification of Tao.  Many suggested that Taoists reify Tao by using the word as a noun.  And it was a good argument.  And this is also why I prefer Robert Henricks' translation of the TTC; he generally uses the word "Way" where most translators use the word "Tao".

 

But I don't think it would be accurate to say it is absolutely nothing.  Tao is "no"thing but yet everything is included within the realm of Tao.  Recently I started looking at the verb "Tao" as equal to the word "Tzujan" in that Tao is the naturalness of the universe.

 

 

It's not nothing not something not this not that not infinite not finite not great not petty not bright not dark not empty not full not profound not shallow not intelligent not stupid not complex not simple not inside not outside not there not here not life not death not existence not nonexistence not dual not nondual not one not two not singular not multitudinous....it cannot be known it can only be not known because its the only thing that is real. It isn't knowing not ignorance not real not unreal not it not me not wisdom not ignorance not abstraction not reality not mind not body not instinct not will not consciousness not unconsciousness not subconsiousness not hyperconsciousness not the noosphere not the world-soul not gods not mortals not time not space not ocean not shore not not.

Yeah, you pretty much covered all the bases with that one.

 

It is not any one thing but it is all things plus the naturalness of all things.

[Stosh]

Great , that's out of the way.