The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

This thread is designed as a place to discuss the commonalities and differences between the writings within the Tao Te Ching and The Chuang Tzu.

 

Preface:

 

Philosophical Taoism is best represented for us in the thought of two texts written in early China. One is called the Chuang-tzu, which preserves the ideas of the philosopher Chuang Chou (369 - 286 B.C.). The other a book known as the Lao-tzu (which means “Old Master” or “Old Philosopher”) or the Tao-Te Ching (The Book of the Way and Its Power). The writing (or recording) of the Tao-Te Ching is generally attributed to a person named Lao-tzu (or Lao Tan), sometimes called Li Erh, during the fifth century B.C.

 

 

(Please withhold comments until I have completed the introduction. I will let you know when that has happened.)

 

 

[Marblehead]

Of course, the Father, IMO, of Taoism is Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, the Son.

 

 

There are many similar ideas in the texts of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu but there are major differences between the two texts as well. For example, a good part of the Lao-tzu is addressed to the man who would be king and is concerned with the correct, Taoist way to rule; Chuang-tzu has no interest in social-political matters. Chuang-tzu’s message is addressed to the rugged individualist who turns his back on social commitment in his search for the fulfilled life.

 

 

The character of Chuang-tzu enables us to see some of the differences between the two Taoist sages.

[Marblehead]

A primary principal teaching of Lao-tzu is humility. His recurrent theme, on which he spoke more than on any other single subject, was gentleness, resignation, the futility of contentions, the strength of weakness and the tactical advantage of lying low. It is difficult, if not impossible, to find parallel sayings of Chuang-tzu on these subjects. To be sure, starting from the same basic philosophy, Chuang-tzu had to believe in humility, but he never could quite say it. Where Lao-tzu spoke of the virtue of non-contention, Chuang-tzu was inclined to speak of the virtue of quiescence, of keeping and preserving one’s spiritual power through tranquillity and rest. To Lao-tzu, water is the “softest of all substances” and a symbol of the wisdom of “keeping a low profile”, but to Chuang-tzu it is a symbol of tranquillity of the mind and clarity of the soul; of enormous reserve power in inaction. While Lao-tzu urged the unimportance of failure, or at least of appearing to fail (for Lao-tzu was the first philosopher of camouflage), Chuang-tzu scoffed at the glitter of success. Lao-tzu praised the humble; Chuang-tzu lambasted the great.

[Marblehead]

An important difference between the two is that Chuang-tzu not only developed a complete theory of knowledge and reality and the futility of language, but felt and expressed more poignantly the pathos of human life. What was philosophy in Lao-tzu became poetry in Chuang-tzu. With all the consolation of philosophy, Chuang-tzu felt the pang and sorrow of man’s short life.

 

 

I have personally always felt that Lao Tzu was more materialistic and that Chuang Tzu was more metaphysical.

 

They talked about the same thing in most part (life) but spoke to different aspects of life as well as from different perspectives in most cases.

 

 

 

Okay. That should be enough to get us started. We should be able to do a good contrast/comparison between the two as they both, as mentioned, spoke of human life.

 

 

Who wants to go first? Hehehe.

[rene]

Excellent start, MH.

 

I have personally always felt that Lao Tzu was more materialistic and that Chuang Tzu was more metaphysical.

 

Who wants to go first? Hehehe.

 

Oh, I will. (-:

 

Regarding the above, to me LZ spoke of ways to interact with the material (manifest) that doesn't exclude the mystery. ZZ, as you pointed out, speaks more to the metaphysical - almost dismissing the material at times. LZ reflects the balance, interaction and importance of both.

 

Many more thoughts to come, but one at a time for me.

 

Thanks again for the thread, friend.

 

 

[子泰]

I agree that they were talking about the same subject, but approaching from different aspects. But what do you guys think the purpose of that was?

[ChiDragon]

I have personally always felt that Lao Tzu was more materialistic......

Lao Tzu was more materialistic.....???
Can you please justify that more explicitly....???

[rene]

I agree that they were talking about the same subject, but approaching from different aspects. But what do you guys think the purpose of that was?

 

Hi, 子泰, nice to see you (-:

 

Other than two different 'writers' having two different 'voices' - are you asking if maybe ZZ was poking at LZ in some manner? Or? I'm curious as to your thoughts about 'purposes'.

 

Thanks!

[Marblehead]

I agree that they were talking about the same subject, but approaching from different aspects. But what do you guys think the purpose of that was?

That was an unexpected question. I will give this a shot as well as ChiDragon's question and then I will step back a little and allow others to become more interactive in this thread.

 

I doubt I will be able to support this well but here goes.

 

Lao Tzu formalized a Philosophy built upon the already existent concept of Tao. Confucius stole much of this philosophy and formed his own version but also included the general population as well. Ceremonies, rites and rituals are established and overshadow what Lao Tzu had presented.

 

Chuang Tzu comes along and says, "Wait a minute! Confucius is misguiding you all." Then he presents his understanding about how one should live. And that is according to one's own Tzujan (self-so-ness).

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu was more materialistic.....???

Can you please justify that more explicitly....???

Yep. Lao Tzu spoke primarily about how the people should be ruled. (Yes, this can be applied to how one should rule one's own life as well.) But Lao Tzu never dreamed he was a butterfly. He never spoke of dreaming. He spoke of preserving one's life. He spoke of preserving energy (wu wei).

 

Is that a good start?

[rene]

 

Lao Tzu formalized a Philosophy built upon the already existent concept of Tao. Confucius stole much of this philosophy and formed his own version but also included the general population as well. Ceremonies, rites and rituals are established and overshadow what Lao Tzu had presented.

 

Chuang Tzu comes along and says, "Wait a minute! Confucius is misguiding you all." Then he presents his understanding about how one should live. And that is according to one's own Tzujan (self-so-ness).

 

Ah..okay.

 

Is this what you were wondering about 子泰 (re purpose)?

[子泰]

My intention in asking about the purpose of writing about different aspects has to do with abiding with conditions. They were confronting the conditions of their time and being serviceable to the people. I personally think that they both have a clear picture in their head about the Tao, and were only writing differently towards the masses for the peoples' sake, because just as different people have different paths, different times require different means by staying with the times, so to speak.

 

Obviously we don't live in the period in which they lived, so we won't know for sure

Edited December 29, 2014 by 子泰

[ChiDragon]

Yep. Lao Tzu spoke primarily about how the people should be ruled. (Yes, this can be applied to how one should rule one's own life as well.) But Lao Tzu never dreamed he was a butterfly. He never spoke of dreaming. He spoke of preserving one's life. He spoke of preserving energy (wu wei).

 

Is that a good start?

 

Yes, it is a good start to see how each of us understand the philosophies of both philosophers. It seems to me that Zhuang Zi was the one who spoke more about preserving life and enjoy life individualistically; and Lao Zi spoke more about preserving one's virtue by following the principles of Tao.

[Marblehead]

Good point ChiDragon. I will step back a little now and let others present thoughts.

[GrandmasterP]

Head- Lao tzu

Heart - Chuang tzu

 

I liked your 'philosopher/poet' comparison MH.

Hadn't thought of them in those terms before.

 

[rene]

Head- Lao tzu Heart - Chuang tzu ....

 

In the spirit of GMP's post...

 

Chuangtzu - mystery emphasis

Confucious - manifest emphasis

Laozi - both

 

Maybe C & C took what they could relate to from the wholeness of The Laozi and created from there. One source, arising in two different directions. Sounds familiar, heh.

[Marblehead]

In the spirit of GMP's post...

 

Chuangtzu - mystery emphasis

Confucious - manifest emphasis

Laozi - both

 

Maybe C & C took what they could relate to from the wholeness of The Laozi and created from there. One source, arising in two different directions. Sounds familiar, heh.

You know what's the most beautiful about this post, Rene? That you and CheDragon are actually in agreement with your understandings.

[rene]

You know what's the most beautiful about this post, Rene? That you and CheDragon are actually in agreement with your understandings.

 

Those who understand generally are.

 

It's what flows from understanding - that can vary widely. (-:

 

[ChiDragon]

Please! I am still trying to stay away from porn. Any little thing will do the triggering.....

[dust]

A primary principal teaching of Lao-tzu is humility. His recurrent theme, on which he spoke more than on any other single subject, was gentleness, resignation, the futility of contentions, the strength of weakness and the tactical advantage of lying low. It is difficult, if not impossible, to find parallel sayings of Chuang-tzu on these subjects. To be sure, starting from the same basic philosophy, Chuang-tzu had to believe in humility, but he never could quite say it. Where Lao-tzu spoke of the virtue of non-contention, Chuang-tzu was inclined to speak of the virtue of quiescence, of keeping and preserving one’s spiritual power through tranquillity and rest. To Lao-tzu, water is the “softest of all substances” and a symbol of the wisdom of “keeping a low profile”, but to Chuang-tzu it is a symbol of tranquillity of the mind and clarity of the soul; of enormous reserve power in inaction. While Lao-tzu urged the unimportance of failure, or at least of appearing to fail (for Lao-tzu was the first philosopher of camouflage), Chuang-tzu scoffed at the glitter of success. Lao-tzu praised the humble; Chuang-tzu lambasted the great.

 

Some excellent overviewing.

 

At times I see them as sharing a philosophy, with some important individual differences;

at other times I see them as having very different philosophies, but with a few important similarities.

 

For my part, some text that illustrates a parallel (and difference?):

 

 

Laozi 25 (first few lines and last line from the Guodian)

 

又壯蟲成 Something great gave way to all form;

先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth,

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless,

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things

(... ...)

道灋自然 The Way is of itself

 

 

Laozi 37 (from Guodian)

 

衜恒亡爲也 The Way is eternally wu wei

侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it,

而萬勿將自 And life will take care of itself,

而欲作 Doing as it will;

將貞之以亡名之僕 Pure like a nameless servant,

夫亦將智足 And this will be enough;

智足以朿 Enough to have peace,

萬勿將自定 Life will steady itself

 

 

Laozi 41 (last few lines from Guodian)

 

大方亡禺 A great square has no corners,

大器曼成 A great capacity emerges slowly,

大音祗聖 A great sound goes low;

天象亡坓 The shape of Heaven has no form,

道褒亡名 The Way is great and nameless

 

 

Zhuangzi 大宗師 The Great Master (excerpt)

 

夫道 For in the Way,

有情有信無為無形 There is feeling and trust, but no action, no form,

可傳而不可受 It can be handed down but not received,

可得而不可見 It can be gained but not seen;

自本自根未有天地 Before Heaven and Earth, it is its own source,

自古以固存 Existing firm from ancient times,

神鬼神帝生天生地 Giving power to ghosts and emperors, giving birth to Heaven and Earth;

在太極之先而不為高 Exceeding the greatest extreme, it can’t be seen as high,

在六極之下而不為深 Lower than all space, it can’t be seen as deep,

先天地生而不為久 Born before Heaven and Earth, it can’t be seen as longevous,

長於上古而不為老 From long before the oldest time, it can’t be seen as old

 

 

Zhuangzi 應帝王 For Emperors & Kings (excerpt)

 

汝遊心於淡 Let your mind wander in simplicity,

合氣於漠 Blend your breath (/spirit) with the vastness,

順物自然 Follow along with things the way they are,

而無容私焉 And make no room for self;

而天下治矣 Then the world will be governed

 

 

 

 

Well.. to start with, there are some exact linguistic similarities:

 

无为 wuwei / however you want to translate it

无形 wuxing / formless

先天地生 born before Heaven and Earth

 

 

and some similar ideas:

 

道灋自然 The Way is of itself (LZ)

自本自根 it is its own source (ZZ)

 

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things (LZ)

生天生地 giving birth to Heaven and Earth (ZZ)

 

侯王能支之而萬勿將自 A ruler can lean on it and life will take care of itself (LZ)

順物自然 (...) 而天下治矣 Follow along with things the way they are (...) then the world will be governed (ZZ)

 

 

and a bunch of other things.

 

As MH mentioned, in Laozi's descriptions of Dao he tends to mention that knowledge of Dao and wuwei and other attributes can be used to govern; Zhuangzi isn't so concerned with this, but obviously there is some talk of rule, some advice for kings.

 

So far, their descriptions agree that the Way is and was the great mother, the originator of all we see and don't see, etc, and that following it can be pretty cool. They both talk of lessening the self/selfishness, following the nature of things, being wuwei (non-interfering, or whatever), etc.

 

 

 

There is one oddity that I am unsure of.. ZZ says,

 

夫道有情有信 For in the Way there is (feeling) and (trust)

 

Now, I'm not sure how best to translate these 2 terms, but... they do stick out, don't they?

 

情 qing can mean kindness, good will, feeling, emotion, mood, passion, and a bunch of other similar things...

 

I don't think there's a discussion on this in the ZZ section yet. Perhaps it would be an interesting one.

Edited December 29, 2014 by dustybeijing

[rene]

CD! Any picture of me is NOT porn!!

**************


dustybejing - wonderful post - the comparisons are very helpful !

Regarding this:

There is one oddity that I am unsure of.. ZZ says,

夫道有情有信 For in the Way there is (feeling) and (trust)

Now, I'm not sure how best to translate these 2 terms, but... they do stick out, don't they?

情 qing can mean kindness, good will, feeling, emotion, mood, passion, and a bunch of other similar things...

I don't think there's a discussion on this in the ZZ section yet. Perhaps it would be an interesting one.

 

The context in which that line resides - is it speaking of attributes of Dao?

 

Or is it more like: 'those who dwell in the Way can experience (feeling) and (trust)' ?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

(I'm starting to think my ideas about ZZ may have been too harsh - but the jury's still out on that so dont go gettin all excited yet, MH.)

[Marblehead]

As MH mentioned, in Laozi's descriptions of Dao he tends to mention that knowledge of Dao and wuwei and other attributes can be used to govern; Zhuangzi isn't so concerned with this, but obviously there is some talk of rule, some advice for kings.

 

So far, their descriptions agree that the Way is and was the great mother, the originator of all we see and don't see, etc, and that following it can be pretty cool. They both talk of lessening the self/selfishness, following the nature of things, being wuwei (non-interfering, or whatever), etc.

A first realization for me while reading your post: I think it can be said that the two were almost identical where it comes to what they spoke of Tao. The differences come in when they speak of Te concepts.

[Marblehead]

CD! Any picture of me is NOT porn!!

 

Picture wouldn't load for me. Boo Hoo!

[dust]

The context in which that line resides - is it speaking of attributes of Dao?

 

Or is it more like: 'those who dwell in the Way can experience (feeling) and (trust)' ?

 

In the previous bit, ZZ's been talking about the ancient man and how to be a model for all men. When he mentions Dao, next, it's a related but separate 'paragraph'. It starts with, word for word:

 

For/so Dao have qing have xin

 

 

Legge translates:

 

This is the Dao; there is in It emotion and sincerity

 

 

Watson translates:

 

The Way has its reality and its signs

 

 

I'm not sure about either, really...

in many ancient texts such as Xunzi, Mengzi, and Shuowen, qing means "good will"

in others such as Liji and Huainanzi, qing means "mood" or "feeling"

 

in Sun Tzu, 兵之情主速 is translated as

"Rapidity is the essence of war" or "The situation of wars is decided promptly"

 

Perhaps we should see what other Chinese-readers have to say...?

Edited December 29, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

Perhaps we should see what other Chinese-readers have to say...?

I'm not sure where in the Chuang Tzu this is found but if it is in the Inner Chapters Lin Yutang would have translated it.