The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

After a short break Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Two Kings And No-Form

The South Sea King was Act-on-Your-Hunch.  The North Sea King was Act-in-a-Flash.  The King of the place between them was No-Form.

Now South Sea King and North Sea King used to go together often to the land of No-Form; he treated them well.

So they consulted together; they thought up a good turn, a pleasant surprise, for No-Form in token of appreciation.

“Men,” they said, “have seven openings for seeing, hearing, eating, breathing.  But No-Form has no openings.  Let’s make him a few holes.”

So after that they put holes in No-Form, one a day, for seven days.  And when they finished the seventh opening, their friend lay dead.

The Sage said, “To organize is to destroy.”
 

[Marblehead]

Without pause Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

The Leveling Into One

“Take the phenomena of rise and fall, growth and decay.  The Tao does not regard rise and fall as rise and fall, and it does not regard growth and decay as growth and decay.  It does not regard beginning and end as beginning and end.  It does not regard formation and dispersion as formation and dispersion.

“These are all leveled together by Tao.  Destruction is the same as creation, and creation is the same as destruction.  There is no such thing as creation and destruction, for these conditions are again leveled together into One.”
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu added that furthermore:

 

 

Tao Unifies The Parts

Tao unifies the parts.  The disadvantage of regarding things in their separate parts is that when one begins to cut up and analyze, each one tries to be exhaustive.  The disadvantage of trying to be exhaustive is that it is consciously exhaustive.  One goes on deeper and deeper, forgetting to return, and sees the externals of things only.  Or one goes on and imagines he has got it, and what he has got is only a carcass.  For a thing which retains its substance but has lost the magic touch of life is but a ghost of reality.  Only one who can imagine the formless in the formed can arrive at the truth.
 

[Jeff]

And Chuang Tzu added that furthermore:

 

 

Tao Unifies The Parts

Tao unifies the parts.  The disadvantage of regarding things in their separate parts is that when one begins to cut up and analyze, each one tries to be exhaustive.  The disadvantage of trying to be exhaustive is that it is consciously exhaustive.  One goes on deeper and deeper, forgetting to return, and sees the externals of things only.  Or one goes on and imagines he has got it, and what he has got is only a carcass.  For a thing which retains its substance but has lost the magic touch of life is but a ghost of reality.  Only one who can imagine the formless in the formed can arrive at the truth.

 

 

So, following this wisdom... Is it better to say "not this", or rather "also this"...?

[Stosh]

IMO its promoting the bigger picture over artificial subdivision. 

[Marblehead]

So, following this wisdom... Is it better to say "not this", or rather "also this"...?

"Also this" is the better, I think.  Sure, we can use "not this" to indicate "that" (an other).

 

There is the momma pig story that speaks well to this concept.  (Don't know where it is at right now though.)

 

I like this because it speaks to a thing's essence.  Even something like a bicycle.  We can take it all apart and say, "This is what makes up a bicycle."  But we don't have a bicycle - we have only parts.  All the parts in the right place is its essence and therefore its usefulness.

[Jeff]

"Also this" is the better, I think.  Sure, we can use "not this" to indicate "that" (an other).

 

There is the momma pig story that speaks well to this concept.  (Don't know where it is at right now though.)

 

I like this because it speaks to a thing's essence.  Even something like a bicycle.  We can take it all apart and say, "This is what makes up a bicycle."  But we don't have a bicycle - we have only parts.  All the parts in the right place is its essence and therefore its usefulness.

 

Some would say that the true essence is found when both statement are accurate.

 

But, both approaches lead to a direction... Does one prefer to head to nothingness or everythingness?

[Marblehead]

Does one prefer to head to nothingness or everythingness?

HEhehe.  I'm the everythingness guy.  3bob is the nothingness guy.

[Marblehead]

With still more to say about his concept, Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

To Be United Is To Be Parted

“In the nature of things and in the known tradition of human affairs, it is different.  To be united is to be parted.  To be completed is to be destroyed.  To be sharp-edged is to be blunted.  To be in an elevated position is to be criticized.  To do is to impair.  To be eminent is to be plotted against.  To be stupid is to be taken advantage of.  Alas, is there anything in this human world that we can regard as sure?  Remember, my disciples, take refuge only in the village of Tao and Te,” says the Sage.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu further added:

 

 

Signs Of Failure And Success

There are eight signs of failure, and three signs of success. Beauty, a long beard, tallness, size, strength, grace, courage, daring; those who excel others in these eight are doomed to failure.  Conservatism, compliance with caution, feeling oneself not equal to others; these three are the signs of success.
 

[Marblehead]

And just so no one misses it, that last sentence is Lao Tzu's "Three Treasures".

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

On Proper Timing

What is at rest is easy to hold.
What has not yet given a sign is easy to forestall.
The brittle is easily shattered.
The minute is easily scattered.

A tree so big that it takes both arms to surround
Starts out as the tiniest shoot.
A nine-story terrace
Rises up from a basket of dirt.
A high place one hundred, one thousand feet high
Begins from under your feet.

Act on it before it comes into being;
Order it before it turns into chaos.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu thought for a moment then responded with:

 

 

Being As Careful At The End As At The Beginning

Those who compete in skill begin with Yang and often end up with Yin, and in overdoing it, the result is useless ornamentation.  Those who drink too much at a formal banquet begin in order and end in disorder, and in overdoing it, the result is intemperate pleasure.  This is true of all affairs also.  What begins in propriety often ends in impropriety.  What begins modestly often ends up in extravagance.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu furthermore said:

 

 

The Sage Rests In The Solution Of Things

The Sage rests in the solution of things and is dissatisfied with what is not a solution.  The common men are satisfied with what is not a solution and do not rest in what is a solution.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

On Overdoing Things

You train your eye and your vision lusts after color.  You train your ear, and you long for delightful sound.  You delight in doing good, and your natural kindness is blown out of shape.  You delight in righteousness, and you become righteous beyond all reason.  You overdo liturgy, and you turn into a ham actor.  Overdo your love of music, and you play corn.  Love of wisdom leads to wise contriving.  Love of knowledge leads to faultfinding.  If men would stay as they really are, taking or leaving these eight delights would make no difference.  But if they will not rest in their right state, the eight delights develop like malignant tumors.  The world falls into confusion.  Since men honor these delights, and lust after them, the world has gone stone-blind.

When the delight is over, they still will not let go of it.  They surround its memory with ritual worship, they fall on their knees to talk about it, play music and sing, fast and discipline themselves in honor of the eight delights.  When the delights become a religion, how can you control them?
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu fell silent so Lao Tzu determined it was his turn to speak:

 

 

The Way Of Tao Is Different But Easy

My words are very easy to understand
And to put into practice,
Yet few in the world
Are capable of understanding them
And putting them into practice.

While the crowd is feasting at a great sacrifice
Or going up to the terraces
For the springtime festivities,
I remain alone in impassive immobility,
Like an infant who has not yet learned how to smile;
I am like a homeless wretch.

While others have more than enough,
I alone seem to have lost everything.
How stupid I look!

How boorish!

How brilliant the people are!

I alone am dull.

How self-assured they are!

I alone am vacillating.

They all have some particular talent,
I alone am as ignorant as a churl.

Different from the others,
I alone prefer to suck my Mother’s breast.

Therefore the Holy Man dresses in homespun
But hides a jade within his bosom.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu responded with:

 

 

The Kingly Man

My Master said, “That which acts on all and meddles in none; that is Heaven.  The Kingly Man realizes this, hides it in his heart, grows boundless, wide-minded, drawing all to himself.  And so he lets the gold lie hidden in the mountain, leaves the pearl lying in the deep.  Goods and possessions are no gain in his eyes, he stays far from wealth and honor.  Long life is no ground for joy, nor early death for sorrow.  Success is not for him to be proud of, failure is no shame.  Had he all the world’s power he would not hold it as his own, if he conquered everything he would not take it to himself.  His glory is in knowing all things come together in One and life and death are equal.”
 

[3bob]

MH,  How did I get brought up in post 358?  I'm pretty sure this is my first post to this string.  Btw I can stick my foot in my mouth well enough on my own regarding various subjects,  which as far as I know or remember I have never once harped about the pros of the terms "nothingness" or "emptiness" in fact I have harped about the harping that sometimes goes on in the use of those terms; granted I have often used the term "no-thing" but to me that has a lot different connotation than the term nothingness which often devolves into some kind of neo-nihilistic whatever...

[Marblehead]

I guess you just happened to be on my mind at that moment.  I know, you and I have a pretty good common understanding of the concepts "empty" and "full".

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

The Man Of Tao Is Beyond All Harm

You have no doubt heard of those
Who are good at holding on to life.

When walking through hills and forests,
They do not avoid rhinos and tigers;
When they go into battle,
They do not put on armor or shields.

The rhino has no place to probe with its horn;
The tiger finds no place to put its claws;
Weapons find no place to hold their blades.

Now, why is this so?

Because he is beyond death.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu quickly replied:

 

 

Why The Man Of Tao Is Beyond All Harm

Those who understand Tao must necessarily apprehend the eternal principles and those who apprehend the eternal principles must understand their application.  Those who understand their application do not suffer material things to injure them.

The man of perfect Character cannot be burnt by fire, nor drowned by water, nor hurt by the cold of winter or the heat of summer, nor torn by bird or beast.  Not that he makes light of these; but that he discriminates between safety and danger, is happy under prosperous and adverse circumstances alike, and cautious in his choice of action, so that none can harm him.
 

[rene]

You see the differences there, yes? Between LZ's and ZZ's ways as reflected in these two passages?

ZZ's man acts with intent; LZ's man doesn't need to act; he just is.

 

 

(MH- did you want feedback like this in the thread? You can remove my post if you want; its all good)

[Marblehead]

Ah!, but without the wisdom of ZZ's man LZ's man would be eaten by the tiger - just as he is.

[rene]

Ah!, but without the wisdom of ZZ's man LZ's man would be eaten by the tiger - just as he is.

 

Of what use would ZZs wisdom be? You really think this is a 'learned' thing?

[Marblehead]

Of what use would ZZs wisdom be? You really think this is a 'learned' thing?

Yes I do think it is a learned thing.  Most children learn this from experience early in life.  Some never do.  In some parts of India the guys who go fishing in areas where there are tigers have learned to wear a mask on the back of their head because most tigers will not attack if they think the people are looking at them.