The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[rene]

Ah, okay. We are talking about two different things. Nevah mind. (-:

[Stosh]

Didn't look like you were, say, the folks of the Sundarbands ,,some of them just choose to live knowing the tigers are there, they see it as protecting the forest the same forest they depend upon , they know death on fuzzy feet may grab them, that this may be their fate, which they accept,,   others take precautions,,  like leave the forest alone, or wear masks. 

[3bob]

I think referring back to T.T.C. chapter 16 would give further help with chapter 50.

[Stosh]

"Being at one with the Tao is eternal.
And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away."

? 

 Lao's angle on Rhinos perhaps here alluded to. 

 

Decryptifying,

Laosmen accept their own bodies death, and you can mow them down in rows while they watch,like baby harp seals,  after all , life will go on right?

Whereas Zsmen , take precautions to not be around, like snow leopards,  accepting that its what they have to do, to preserve their bodies life, thats how it is ,, and life goes on. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

But still, Rene is correct in a way in that while speaking to the concept Lao Tzu speaks from a philosophical perspective while Chuang Tzu was speaking from an "experienced in life" perspective.

 

However, birth and death, creation and destruction are just the cycles within the processes.

[3bob]

Stosh, I was alluding to the last two lines in the John Wu translation containing: "Such a one will be safe and whole even after the dissolution of his body" which to me gives a more personal sounding/related description.

[3bob]

I'd say that more than concept/speculation is being pointed to here...

[Marblehead]

Stosh, I was alluding to the last two lines in the John Wu translation containing: "Such a one will be safe and whole even after the dissolution of his body" which to me gives a more personal sounding/related description.

Yes, that understanding is presented by most translators.  For me, it is venturing into metaphysics and I just don't believe Lao Tzu meant what he said in that manner.  (Personal understanding which I cannot support.)

Edited June 12, 2015 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

I'd say that more than concept/speculation is being pointed to here...

We could say that this is a given, couldn't we?

[3bob]

I'd say many or most "beliefs" and non-beliefs are no better than a transition type of shelf that they should be put on pending further review and new developments related to facts proven per direct experience...

[Stosh]

But still, Rene is correct in a way in that while speaking to the concept Lao Tzu speaks from a philosophical perspective while Chuang Tzu was speaking from an "experienced in life" perspective.

 

However, birth and death, creation and destruction are just the cycles within the processes.

Sure she is , but to me the point of philosophy is to enhance our life, rather than disable us , or remain in the realm of the relatively impossible. To see a human as merely part of the larger process, to me makes them expendable,interchangeable  ,, which , we basically are ,, but I dont the we as individuals or members of a larger society are improved by looking at each other that way.  I really only broke in because she made that comment which abandoned 'willingness to engage'. You guys like each other and simply running away at the first sign of not being in entire accord is too intolerant. Does she think she cant handle herself all of a sudden? that she would dissolve if you won a round outright? c'mon . 

[rene]

Sure she is , but to me the point of philosophy is to enhance our life, rather than disable us , or remain in the realm of the relatively impossible. To see a human as merely part of the larger process, to me makes them expendable,interchangeable  ,, which , we basically are ,, but I dont the we as individuals or members of a larger society are improved by looking at each other that way.  I really only broke in because she made that comment which abandoned 'willingness to engage'. You guys like each other and simply running away at the first sign of not being in entire accord is too intolerant. Does she think she cant handle herself all of a sudden? that she would dissolve if you won a round outright? c'mon . 

 

LOL Stosh (nice to see you, btw). I can see how your perspective might come to a 'she ran away' conclusion, sure. It might be, however, that she chose to not engage MH in his ZZ/LZ dialogue thread - for this tangental conversation.

 

Now... if you'd like to make a seperate topic on whether or not this LZ thought is like the llined up baby harp seals, I invite you to bring it.

 

(-:

[Stosh]

LOL Stosh (nice to see you, btw). I can see how your perspective might come to a 'she ran away' conclusion, sure. It might be, however, that she chose to not engage MH in his ZZ/LZ dialogue thread - for this tangental conversation.

 

Now... if you'd like to make a seperate topic on whether or not this LZ thought is like the llined up baby harp seals, I invite you to bring it.

 

(-:

I would , but any proper Lz response would have to be useless. 

[rene]

As you wish. (-:

[Marblehead]

The discussion in the background died down so Lao Tzu determined it was safe to speak again.  He said:

 

 

To Be Sparing Is To Forestall

In managing human affairs and serving Heaven,
There is no better rule than to be sparing;
Never do too much.

To be sparing is to forestall;
To forestall is to be prepared and strengthened.

Therefore, early submit to the Tao.

Early submission!

This is called to repeatedly accumulate Virtue.

If you repeatedly accumulate Virtue,
Then there is nothing you cannot overcome.

When there is nothing you cannot overcome;
You can last a very long time.

To be prepared and strengthened
Is to be ever-victorious;
To be ever-victorious
Is to have infinite capacity.

He who has infinite capacity
Is fit to rule a country,
And the Mother of a country can long endure.

This is called having deep roots and a firm base,
It is the Tao of long life and long-lasting vision.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu thought for a moment then responded with:

 

 

The Art Of Nourishing The Spirit

There are those who are artificial and moderate in conduct, strange in manners and live apart from society, who indulge in high-sounding talks and sharp criticism of others, all designed to show one’s high-mindedness.  These are the recluses of the forests.  Those who think that society is wrong love their teachings.

There are those who occupy themselves with discussions of humanity and justice, loyalty and honesty, respect, humility and courtesy; teachings designed for self-cultivation.  These are the social philosophers.  The schoolmen and traveling students love their teachings.

Occupied in talks about great service to the country and making a big name, about courtesy between ruler and subjects and order between officials and the people, topics concerned with the administration of the country; these are the courtiers and politicians.  Those who wish to help their sovereign make their country become strong and expand and conquer their neighbors’ territory by force love such teachings.

To go to a lake and live out in the open and fish at leisure for the object of succeeding in doing nothing; these are the scholars of the rivers and seas.  Those who wish to retire from the world and enjoy leisure love such doctrines.

To control one’s breathing, expelling the foul air and inhaling the fresh, to stretch like a bear and crane like a bird for the purpose of achieving a long life; these are the believers of mental hygiene.  Those who wish to strengthen their bodies and achieve longevity love such teachings.

But to be high-minded without artificiality, to cultivate oneself without the teachings of humanity and justice, to believe in governmental order without caring for meritorious service and a high reputation, to have leisure without retiring to the rivers and seas, and to live a long life without the constant practice of mental hygiene, forgetting nothing, and possessing everything, to be detached and infinitely dispassionate and yet to possess all the virtues; this is the Tao of the Universe and the character of the Sage.

Therefore it is said that mellowness, calm, passivity and inaction represent the state of repose of the Universe and the substance of Tao and Te.  Therefore it is said the Sage takes repose.  From repose comes unaffected simplicity and from unaffected simplicity comes mellowness.  When one is simple and unaffected and mellow, sorrows and fears cannot disturb him and evil influences cannot affect him.  Thereby one’s Character becomes whole and his soul becomes unimpaired.

Therefore it is said, the Sage follows Nature in his life and goes back to Nature at his death.  In his quietness he shares the same Character with Yin; in his activity the same energy with Yang.  He responds only when moved, acts only when he is urged, and rises to action only when he is compelled to do so.  He regards his life like a floating dream and regards his death as rest.  He does not plan, contrive or calculate.  He shines but does not dazzle, is honest but does not rely on observing of contracts.  Sleeping without dreams, and waking up without worries, the Spirit is pure and his soul is never tired.

Therefore it is said, absolute purity of Character, unchangeable calm and quiet, mellowness and inaction, and activity in accordance with Nature; these are the ways of nourishing the Spirit.
 

[Michael Sternbach]

Chuang Tzu thought for a moment then responded with:

 

 

The Art Of Nourishing The Spirit

 

There are those who are artificial and moderate in conduct, strange in manners and live apart from society, who indulge in high-sounding talks and sharp criticism of others, all designed to show one’s high-mindedness.  These are the recluses of the forests.  Those who think that society is wrong love their teachings ...

 

To go to a lake and live out in the open and fish at leisure for the object of succeeding in doing nothing; these are the scholars of the rivers and seas.  Those who wish to retire from the world and enjoy leisure love such doctrines.

 

To control one’s breathing, expelling the foul air and inhaling the fresh, to stretch like a bear and crane like a bird for the purpose of achieving a long life; these are the believers of mental hygiene.  Those who wish to strengthen their bodies and achieve longevity love such teachings.

 

Hey, without a doubt, ChuangTzu was talking about the Dao Bums!

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

The Natural Is Better Than The Planned

A young man who lived near the seashore was very fond of seagulls.  Every morning he went down to the beach to play with them, and the gulls arrived by the hundreds without hesitation.  One day the young man’s father said to him, “I’ve heard that the seagulls play familiarly with you.  Catch me a few so that I can play with them as well.”

Next morning the young man went down to the beach but the gulls played in the air above his head and not one came down to him.
 

[Stosh]

Hansel was walking in the woods and saw some bachmans sparrows, every time he drew nearer, the sparrows dived for the bushes before he got close. So he played a recording of their fighting song , and they popped out right by his head in challenge. So Hansel decided the sparrows were pawns of their own emotions.

 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 So Hansel decided the sparrows were pawns of their own emotions.

Aren't we all?

[Marblehead]

And then Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

Perfect Talent

“What do you mean by his talents being perfect?” asked the Duke.

“Life and death”, replied the Sage, “possession and loss, success and failure, poverty and wealth, virtue and vice, good and evil report, hunger and thirst, heat and cold; these are changes of things in the natural course of events.  Day and night they follow upon one another, and no man can say where they spring from.  Therefore they must not be allowed to disturb the natural harmony, nor enter into the soul’s domain.  One should live in a sweet, harmonious atmosphere without being driven to sharpness of temper, and by day and by night share the peace of spring with the created things.  Thus continuously one creates the seasons in one’s own breast.  Such a person may be said to have a perfect talent.”
 

[Stosh]

Gretel didn’t know anything about fishing but he heard big bluefish were being caught at New Smyrna beach, Hansel agreed to take her.

Half way out there ,scary dark clouds began to move in, but they decided to continue on , having nothing else planned.  As they arrived the skies cleared and they began fishing. Gretel hooked a fish which bent her rod to the ground , peeling off a hundred yards of line.

When it was landed, they found the fish weighed only seven pounds. Gretel was bummed because she had been sure it was a record bluefish. Hansel asked if she was out of her mind , because it was a humongous seven pound pompano.  Gretel was happy again.

Hansel decided Gretel’s emotions and behavior ,were subject to her beliefs and expectations.

[Marblehead]

And then Chuang Tzu added:

 

 

See The Solitary One

A would-be disciple said to a beautiful lady, “You are of a high age, and yet you have a child’s complexion.  How is this?”

The lady replied, “I have learnt to rest in Tao.”

“Could I get Tao by studying it?” asked the other.

“How can you?” said the lady.  “You cannot get or possess Tao.  You can, however, learn to rest in Tao as I have.  There was another who asked me to help him learn Tao.  He had the natural talent of a Sage, but did not know the teachings.  I knew all the teachings.  I wanted to teach him in the hope that he might become a Sage.  It should have been very easy to teach the doctrines of a Sage to one who had the natural endowment for them.  But it was not so, for I had to wait patiently to reveal them to him.  In three days, he could transcend this world.  Again I waited for seven days more, then he could transcend all material existence.  After he could transcend all material existence, I waited for another nine days, after which he could transcend all life.  After he could transcend all life, then he had the clear vision of the morning, and after that, was able to see the Solitary One.  After seeing the Solitary, he could abolish the distinctions of past and present.  After abolishing the distinctions of past and present, he was able to enter there where life and death are no more, where killing does not take away life, nor does giving birth bring life into being.  He was ever in accord with his environment, accepting all and welcoming all, regarding everything as destroyed and everything as in completion.  This is to be ‘secure amidst confusion’ and ‘reaching security through chaos.’”
 

[rene]

/\  10+

[3bob]

such a soul appears to be a man but Spirit knows better.