The Father and Son of Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu furthermore stated:

 

 

Getting Rid Of Mind And Body

A disciple spoke to a Sage, “I am getting on.”

“How so?” asked the latter.

“I have got rid of humanity and justice”, replied the former.

“Very good”, replied the Sage, “but not quite perfect.”

Another day, the disciple met the Sage and said, “I am getting on.”

“How so?”

“I have got rid of ceremonies and music,” answered the disciple.

“Very good,” said the Sage, “but not quite perfect.”

Another day, the disciple again met the Sage and said, “I am getting on.”

“How so?”

“I can forget myself while sitting in a room,” replied the disciple.

“What do you mean by that?” asked the Sage, changing his countenance.

“I have freed myself from my body,” answered the disciple.  “I have discarded my reasoning powers.  And by thus getting rid of my body and mind, I have become One with the Infinite.  This is what I mean by forgetting myself while sitting.”

“If you have become One,” said the Sage, “there can be no room for bias.  If you have lost yourself, there can be no more hindrance.  Perhaps you are really a wise one.”
 

[Marblehead]

After a short pause Lao Tzu said:

 

 

If You Know Contentment

Fame or one’s own self,
Which does one love more?

One’s own self or material goods,
Which has more worth?

Loss of self or loss of possessions,
Which is the greater evil?

If your desires are great,
You are bound to be excessive;
If you store much away,
You are bound to lose a great deal.

Therefore, if you know contentment,
You will not be disgraced.

If you know when to stop,
You will suffer no harm.

In this way you can last a very long time.
 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu replied:

 

 

The Sage Was In A Park

The Sage was one day wandering within the confines of the park when he saw a strange bird coming from the south.  Its wing-spread was seven feet across, and its eyes were an inch in circumference.  The bird’s wing touched his forehead as it flew past to rest in a chestnut grove.  “What kind of a bird is this?” said the Sage to himself.  “With its big wings it does not fly away, and with its big eyes it acts as if it does not see me.”  So he ran along onto the grounds where walking was not allowed and watched it.  He saw a cicada enjoying itself in the shade, forgetting itself.  Behind it was a praying mantis taking advantage of the shadow to pounce upon it.  The praying mantis also forgot itself in the love of gain, for the strange bird was behind him.  The Sage said to himself, “Alas!  This is the manner in which things involve one another and loss follows upon gain.

The Sage started to return to the path when the park keeper saw him and drove him away with angry words. The Sage returned to his house and remained unhappy for three days.

“Why are you so unhappy?” asked one of his disciples.

“Until now I had always watched out for my body while forgetting my real safety; I had gazed on muddy water taking it for a clear spring.  I got so occupied with the corporeal things that I forgot myself.  Looking upon the muddy stream, I forgot the deep clear pool.  I have heard from the Master, ‘When you enter a country, follow its customs; when mingling with the vulgar, behave like the vulgar.’  I was wandering in the park and forgot myself; I forgot my real safety.  The keeper of the chestnut grove took me for a thief.  That is why I am feeling unhappy.”
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang Tzu continued:

 

 

On Losing One’s Real Self

He who pursues fame at the risk of losing his self is not very wise.  He who loses his life and has not been true to himself is a poor man indeed.  Thus many good men have been kept busy in the service of others, and had the pleasure of pleasing others, but never the pleasure of pleasing themselves.
 

[Marblehead]

And Chuang tzu continued with:

 

 

Belonging Together Naturally

Those who come together for profit or gain abandon each other in times of trouble.  Those who belong together by Nature help one another in times of distress.  What a difference there is between the two.  The friendship between gentlemen is mild, like the taste of water; the friendship between petty people is sweet, like strong wine.  But the gentlemen’s mild friendship develops into lasting affection, and the petty people’s friendship begins with sweetness and ends with breaking off.  For those who come together without a natural reason also break away from one another without a natural reason.  When men’s attachments are deep, their divine endowments are shallow.
 

[Marblehead]

Feeling he still had more to say regarding this concept Chuang Tzu added:

 

 

The Turtle

The Sage, with his bamboo pole, was fishing in the river.  The Prince sent two vice-chancellors with a formal document, “We hereby appoint you Prime Minister.”

The Sage held his bamboo pole.  Still watching the river, he said, “I am told there is a sacred tortoise, offered and canonized three thousand years ago, venerated by the prince, wrapped in silk, in a precious shrine on an alter in the temple.

“What do you think?  Is it better to give up one’s life and leaving only a sacred shell as an object of cult in a cloud of incense for three thousand years, or better to live as a plain turtle, dragging its tail in the mud?

“For the turtle,” said the vice-chancellor, “Better to live and drag its tail in the mud.”

“Go home!” said the Sage.  “Leave me here to drag my tail in the mud.”
 

[Marblehead]

Quickly continuing, Chuang Tzu said:

 

 

The Marsh Pheasant

The little marsh pheasant must hop ten times to get a bite of grain.  She must run a hundred steps before she takes a sip of water.  Yet she does not ask to be kept in a hen run though she might have all she desired set before her.  She would rather run and seek her own little living uncaged.
 

[Marblehead]

Not out of breath yet, Chuang Tzu continues:

 

 

The Owl And The Phoenix

The Prime Minister had what he believed to be inside information that the Sage coveted his post and was intriguing to supplant him.  In fact, when the Sage came to visit the capital, the Prime Minister sent out the police to apprehend him.  The police searched for him for three days and three nights but were unable to find him.  Meanwhile the Sage presented himself before the Prime Minister of his own accord and said, “Have you heard about the bird that lives in the south; the Phoenix that never grows old?

“This undying Phoenix rises out of the South Sea and flies to the Sea of the North, never alighting except on certain sacred trees.  He will touch no food but the most exquisite rare fruit, drinks only from the clearest of springs.

“Once an owl, chewing a dead rat already half decayed, saw the Phoenix fly over, looked up, and screeched with alarm, clutching the rat to himself in fear and dismay.

“Why are you so frantic, clinging to your ministry and screeching at me in dismay?

“Have you ever seen the pig being led to the sacrifice?  After being fattened up for several years, it is decked out in embroidered trappings and led into the great temple.  At this moment it would undoubtedly prefer to be an uncared-for piglet, but it is too late, isn’t it?  Do not defile me!  I would rather frolic joyously in the mire than be haltered by the ruler of a state.  I will never take office.  Thus I will remain free to live as I see fit.”
 

[Marblehead]

And still Chuang Tzu continues:

 

 

The Carefree Excursion

If there is not sufficient depth, water will not have the power to float large ships.  Upset a cup of water into a depression on the mud floor and a mustard seed will float like a boat.  Try to float the cup and it will stick because the water is shallow and the vessel is large.  If there is not sufficient volume, wind will not have the power to support large wings.

Small knowledge is not to be compared with great knowledge nor a short life with a long one.  How do we know that this is so?  The morning mushroom knows not the alternation of day and night.  The mole-cricket knows not the alternation of spring and autumn.  These are instances of short life.  South of the state there is a tree, whose spring lasts five hundred years and whose autumn lasts five hundred years.  This is long life.  And yet, the Inspired One, who lived 800 years, is still renowned for his longevity, and so many men wish to match him; isn’t that a pity?

Similarly, a man may possess enough knowledge for the duties of some office and his conduct may benefit his limited neighborhood, or his virtue may be comparable to that of the ruler and he may even win the confidence of the whole country.  But a Sage who taught that men’s desires should be few would regard him with a contented smile.  If the whole world applauded him, he would not be encouraged; if the whole world denounced him, he would not be discouraged.  He held fast to the difference between the internal and the external, and he distinguished clearly the boundary of honor and shame, and that was all.  In the world such a man is rare.  Therefore, it is said, "The perfect man has no self; the spiritual man has no achievement; the true Sage has no name."
 

[Marblehead]

And still with more to say Chuang Tzu continues with:

 

 

On Being Released From Bondage

Those who abide by their time and follow their natural course cannot be affected by sorrow or joy.  They are considered to be men released by Tao from bondage.
 

[Stosh]

And still with more to say Chuang Tzu continues with:

 

 

On Being Released From Bondage

Those who abide by their time and follow their natural course cannot be affected by sorrow or joy.  They are considered to be men released by Tao from bondage.

 

How central a sentiment do you feel this to be to Zz? Lz?

[Marblehead]

I doubt a concept such as this would ever have crossed Lao Tzu's mind.

 

However, I think that Chuang Tzu would have held it as important.  He speaks a few times of those who either tried to avoid being in the lime light or ran away from it so that could be freed from bondage and live naturally.

[Stosh]

The avoidance af limelight, pomp, pretense, title, etc, is how I read those other passages as well..but this says sorrow and joy.. not only that, it divides naturalness from them. Suggesting...

[rene]

Chuang Tzu replied:

And Chuang Tzu continued:

And Chuang tzu continued with:

Feeling he still had more to say regarding this concept Chuang Tzu added:

Quickly continuing, Chuang Tzu said:

Not out of breath yet, Chuang Tzu continues:

And still Chuang Tzu continues:

And still with more to say Chuang Tzu continues with:

 

And while ChuangTzu was reciting...

LaoTzu composed DDJ Ch5 and began Ch23...

 

[dawei]

How central a sentiment do you feel this to be to Zz? Lz?

 

 

I doubt a concept such as this would ever have crossed Lao Tzu's mind.

 

However, I think that Chuang Tzu would have held it as important.  He speaks a few times of those who either tried to avoid being in the lime light or ran away from it so that could be freed from bondage and live naturally.

 

Great Question Stosh ... 

 

As LZ is generally more grounded (not sure the right word here, but he smiles upon our earthly attachments more) than ZZ, I would think he talks of this sentiment...    This is worthy of a separate discussion

[Marblehead]

The avoidance af limelight, pomp, pretense, title, etc, is how I read those other passages as well..but this says sorrow and joy.. not only that, it divides naturalness from them. Suggesting...

In and discussion of these things we would need include ego as part of the discussion.  Ego is what brings about sorrow and joy.

[Marblehead]

And while ChuangTzu was reciting...

LaoTzu composed DDJ Ch5 and began Ch23...

Yeah, but Lao Tzu was a bureaucrat and Chuang Tzu was a free spirit.

[Marblehead]

 This is worthy of a separate discussion

I will be there if anyone starts one.

[Marblehead]

And then Chuang Tzu added:

 

 

Point Of View

From the point of view of the Tao things are neither noble nor mean.  From the point of view of the individual things, each considers itself noble and the other mean.  From the point of view of common opinion, nobility or meanness do not depend on one’s self.

From the point of view of relativity, if we call a thing great because it is greater than something else, then there is nothing in all creation which is not great.  If we call a thing small because it is smaller than something else, then there is nothing which is not small.  To know that the Universe is but a tare-seed, and the tip of a hair is as a mountain, is to have a clear perception of relative dimensions.

From the point of view of function, if we call a thing useful when it fulfills a function, then there is nothing in all creation which is not useful.  If we call a thing useless when it does not fulfill a function, then there is nothing which is not useless.  To understand that east and west are mutually contrary, and yet neither can exist without the other, then we have a proper determination of function.

From the point of view of preference, if we approve of anyone who is approved of by someone, at least himself, then there is no one who may not be approved of.  If we condemn anyone who is condemned by someone else, then there is no one who may not be condemned.  To know that the Sage and the tyrant would each approve of himself and condemn the other, then we have a clear realization of human preferences.

From the point of view of the Tao, what is noble and what is mean?  These are but words in a process of alternations.  Do not be narrowly restricted in your inclination, lest you conflict with the Tao.  What is few and what is many?  They are but varying amounts in a process of rotation.  Do not be slavishly uniform in your conduct lest you deviate from the Tao.  Be august, like the ruler of a state whose favors are impartial.  Be transcendent, like the Spirit of the Land at a sacrifice whose benediction is impartial.  Be expansive, like the boundlessness of the four directions within which there are no sectional limits.  Embrace all creation in your bosom, favoring and honoring none in particular.  This is called impartiality.  And where all things are equal, how is it possible for some to be short and some long?
 

Edited June 28, 2015 by Marblehead

[rene]

Yeah, but Lao Tzu was a bureaucrat and Chuang Tzu was a free spirit.

 

Perhaps, yet I dont see the two methods as being mutually exclusive. (-:

[Marblehead]

Perhaps, yet I dont see the two methods as being mutually exclusive. (-:

Exactly the point I normally fail to make.  The paths are different but the processes and results are the same.

[Marblehead]

Anyhow, Chuang Tzu fell silent so Lao Tzu felt comfortable in presenting the following:

 

 

To Not Lose Your Place

To understand others is to be knowledgeable;
To understand yourself is to be wise.

To conquer others is to have strength;
To conquer yourself is to be strong.

To know when you have enough is to be rich.

To go forward with purpose is to have faith.

To not lose your place is to last long.

To die, but not be forgotten;
That is true long life.
 

[rene]

... The paths are different but the processes and results are the same.

 

Could be! I like to think of LZ as a free-spirit playfully and skillfully working the bureaucratic game, lol You know, both. heh.

[Marblehead]

I like to think of LZ as a free-spirit playfully and skillfully working the bureaucratic game, lol You know, both. heh.

Of course you do.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu responded to Lao Tzu with:

 

 

On Wealth And Poverty

A Sage was living in a little shack in the village.  Its roof was covered with green grass, and the reed screen for its door was tattered.  A mulberry trunk served for the door hinge and a broken jar served for his window.  The house had two rooms and the window was stuffed with rags.  The roof leaked and the floor was damp.  But he sat properly in it and would often play on a string instrument.  One day a successful diplomat came to see him, riding on a big horse wearing a navy blue gown with a white coat on top.  The Sage came out to meet him with a briar stick in his hand and wearing a hemp cap and a pair of shoes without heels.
“Alack-a-day!  What ails you?”  said the diplomat.

“Nothing ails me,” replied the Sage.  “I have heard that to have no money is called poverty, but to know the truth and be not able to follow it is called a disease.  I am poor but not sick.”

The diplomat felt a little embarrassed and loitered for a moment and the Sage laughed.  “You know that there are certain things that I cannot do,” he said.  “These are:  to go about the world and do things to win the public’s praise; to go about socially and form a circle of friends; to study for others’ sake and to teach for one’s own sake; to do evil under the cloak of humanity and justice; and to enjoy the luxury of a beautiful carriage.  These things I cannot do.  The contented man does not land himself in involvements on account of money.”