Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[C T]

 

[manitou]

thank you CT.  That was beyond words.  but I'll try.

 

Ancient; modern; metaphysical, and transcendental all at the same time.

[C T]

To fully embody the Dharma is to simply give in to awareness's natural expression.

 

~ Paramito Ladakh ~ 

[C T]

The “self” is established, albeit only notionally, on the basis of transient forms, feelings, perceptions, thought formations, and sense impressions, and thus it is not absolute, but is merely relational and conditioned.

 

~ Paramito Ladakh ~ 

[C T]

"That coincidence with the self known as satisfaction, where thirst knows itself as thirst at the same time that the drinking satisfies it, when by the very fact of its fulfilment it loses its character as lack while making itself be thirst in and through the satisfaction." ~ JP Sartre

 

Sartre goes on to state that desire is represented as a 'lack of being', and is an invocation that is sustained by nothing except a conduit or various passages, which the mind creates, to see it through to its imaginary repletion of that which will fulfil/annul the lack. However, the vacuity of desire is self-referential: Desire desires itself, inseparable from the craving that ensues, and resists its annihilation through fulfilment. It desires the repletion of the in-itself without losing itself as for-itself. There is never authentic satisfaction, no real making full at all. Simply an appearance, an illusion, reflected as fullness. 

[C T]

If we continue to meditate on the Buddhist path we will eventually have all kinds of experiences

that we may never have had before, such as bliss, clarity, nonconceptuality, and clairvoyance.

But we must understand that they are only a byproduct of our meditation,

and that they are not the ultimate goal. If we become attached to these experiences

they will only distract us from the path

and we will not progress towards liberation

and enlightenment.

 

~ Chamtrul Rinpoche ~

[C T]

Dzogchen could be defined as a way to relax completely. This can be clearly understood from the terms used to denote the state of contemplation, such as "leave it just as it is" (cog bzhag), "cutting loose one's tension" (khregs chod), beyond effort" (rtsol bral), and so on. Some scholars have classified Dzogchen as a "direct path," comparing it to teachings such as Zen, where this expression is often used.

 

In Dzogchen texts, however, the phrases "direct path" and "nongradual path" (cig car) are never used, because the concept of a "direct path" implies necessarily that there must be, on the one hand, a place from which one departs, and on the other, a place where one arrives. But in Dzogchen there is a single principle of the state of knowledge, and if one possesses this state one discovers that right from the beginning one is already there where one wants to arrive. For this reason the state is said to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub).

 

~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche ~ 

 

[manitou]

On 9/28/2017 at 6:38 AM, C T said:

Desire desires itself, inseparable from the craving that ensues, and resists its annihilation through fulfilment. It desires the repletion of the in-itself without losing itself as for-itself. 

 

 

This seriously contorts my mind.  Could somebody please put me out of my misery?

[rene]

10 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

This seriously contorts my mind.  Could somebody please put me out of my misery?

 

You want a pony. You also want to keep wanting a pony. You actually want to keep wanting more than you want the pony...so you sabotage ever getting a pony. Your "wanting" wins: you never get a pony...but you do get to keep wanting one.

[manitou]

35 minutes ago, rene said:

 

You want a pony. You also want to keep wanting a pony. You actually want to keep wanting more than you want the pony...so you sabotage ever getting a pony. Your "wanting" wins: you never get a pony...but you do get to keep wanting one.

 

 

Or maybe this could be explained as if you do get the pony, the wanting switches over to something else?  And if I'm reading CT's original post, it is the wanting that is resisting its annihilation?  Is this because the feeling is more important than the illusion of the pony?  Because the feeling is really the closest thing we have to reality?  And it is the feeling we are clinging to, the attachment of wanting more?

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by manitou

[rene]

25 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Or maybe this could be explained as if you do get the pony, the wanting switches over to something else?  And if I'm reading CT's original post, it is the wanting that is resisting its annihilation?  Is this because the feeling is more important than the illusion of the pony?  Because the feeling is really the closest thing we have to reality?  And it is the feeling we are clinging to, the attachment of wanting more?

 

 

 

 

Could be, sure!

 

[Jeff]

41 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Or maybe this could be explained as if you do get the pony, the wanting switches over to something else?  And if I'm reading CT's original post, it is the wanting that is resisting its annihilation?  Is this because the feeling is more important than the illusion of the pony?  Because the feeling is really the closest thing we have to reality?  And it is the feeling we are clinging to, the attachment of wanting more?

 

 

It is the thrill of the hunt itself, more than the actual success, that drives the process of desire. A good example can be found in putting together a jigsaw puzzle. Is it more fun to find all of the pieces and put it together (even though it may frustrate you), or see the completed picture of the puzzle? 

[manitou]

38 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is the thrill of the hunt itself, more than the actual success, that drives the process of desire. A good example can be found in putting together a jigsaw puzzle. Is it more fun to find all of the pieces and put it together (even though it may frustrate you), or see the completed picture of the puzzle? 

 

 

Unless it's missing one  

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Unless it's missing one  

 

[rene]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

It is the thrill of the hunt itself, more than the actual success, that drives the process of desire.

 

Could be, sure. Or maybe it runs deeper:

 

"Those who dream of the banquet, wake to lamentation and sorrow. Those who dream of lamentation and sorrow wake to join the hunt." - ZZ

 

[C T]

Desire feeds itself thru both yearning for things it cannot have, or yet to have, and also aversion for things it already has, or have experienced, but which is deemed insufficient or unsatisfactory. 

 

The Chinese have a saying that the heart of desire, though residing within the limits of a human being, craves incessantly for reasonable and unreasonable things, the latter very much like a python that dreams of swallowing an elephant. 

 

There is no lasting benefit to exert effort in the analysis of the whys and wherefores of the wave-like nature of desire, nor the objects that shadow it unfailingly, but simply to cast an eye of wisdom over it to see its unhealthy tendency to cause delusion and then for the same delusion to create habits that then propagate cravings and aversions, thereby creating an endless loop, and this will continue to feed itself until such time one determinedly and consciously, or accidentally in some cases, severs any part of the loop. 

 

 

[manitou]

And I'm guessing that it is desire that keeps this endless loop resonating, and in fact is the reason for the endless loop.

[C T]

13 minutes ago, manitou said:

And I'm guessing that it is desire that keeps this endless loop resonating, and in fact is the reason for the endless loop.

That's the premise, yes. 

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, manitou said:

And I'm guessing that it is desire that keeps this endless loop resonating, and in fact is the reason for the endless loop.

 

It is not the desire itself that keeps the endless loop going, it is the “attachment” of that desire (energy) to specific things that keeps it going. The difference can be seen with comparing individual Love (and attachment to that person) and more universal love for all. There is no suffering in Love itself, but in the specific attachment of it.

 

A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun. Similarity, at higher levels of clarity people start to talk about more “oneness with all” as individual attachments drop.

[cold]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is not the desire itself that keeps the endless loop going, it is the “attachment” of that desire (energy) to specific things that keeps it going. The difference can be seen with comparing individual Love (and attachment to that person) and more universal love for all. There is no suffering in Love itself, but in the specific attachment of it.

 

A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun. Similarity, at higher levels of clarity people start to talk about more “oneness with all” as individual attachments drop.

 

An exception to the rule " A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun." sunflowers ?

Just one example of floral heliotropism...

[Marblehead]

I follow the sun and all that it represents.

 

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, cold said:

 

An exception to the rule " A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun." sunflowers ?

Just one example of floral heliotropism...

 

 

Most flowers and probably all are attracted to sunlight - plants grow towards it.

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is not the desire itself that keeps the endless loop going, it is the “attachment” of that desire (energy) to specific things that keeps it going. The difference can be seen with comparing individual Love (and attachment to that person) and more universal love for all. There is no suffering in Love itself, but in the specific attachment of it.

 

A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun. Similarity, at higher levels of clarity people start to talk about more “oneness with all” as individual attachments drop.

 

What is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering?

It is craving which renews being and is accompanied by relish and lust, relishing this and that: in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being. But whereon does this craving arise and flourish? Wherever there is what seems lovable and gratifying, thereon it arises and flourishes.

There is this Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering:such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering....

This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

[rene]

56 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is not the desire itself that keeps the endless loop going, it is the “attachment” of that desire (energy) to specific things that keeps it going. The difference can be seen with comparing individual Love (and attachment to that person) and more universal love for all. There is no suffering in Love itself, but in the specific attachment of it.

 

A flower just grows, it is not attached to the direction of the sun. Similarity, at higher levels of clarity people start to talk about more “oneness with all” as individual attachments drop.

 

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

What is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering?

It is craving which renews being and is accompanied by relish and lust, relishing this and that: in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being. But whereon does this craving arise and flourish? Wherever there is what seems lovable and gratifying, thereon it arises and flourishes.

There is this Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering:such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering....

This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

 

These two quotes, Jeff's and especially the bolded line in Apech's, point to an idea that is on the way - but incomplete in its understanding, and therefore usefulness, imo.

 

Like the flower desires, and turns toward, the sun - so it is natural for us to desire things: food, shelter, love. Most may agree there is nothing wrong with desiring those things, yes? But what about things pleasurable yet not necessary for survival? Those are the things the two quotes are pointing at.

 

One quote (and more than one tradition) seem to suggest eliminating all desire by removing exposure to the things that are the sources of desire - which I find to be an unnatural method. The other quote (and still other traditions) suggest to not be attached to "things" to avoid desire for them. This idea is less severe than the first - but still lacking, imo.

 

To me, (my) desires are natural - but unimportant. Both in their existance and fulfillment. They are unimportant  because I also know there is "no way" that I can predict if fulfilling them would be to my betterment or detriment. Would getting the pony turn out well? Who knows? Not me, lol, so whatever comes is okay!

 

I have a favorite tea cup! ☕

 

Unlike the Master who quickly broke his when realizing he did too (to avoid attachment) - I'm going to keep, use & cherish mine, until it breaks which it eventually will, then say 'Aw..damn,' sweep up the pieces..and pick a new favorite one! Life is good. 🌻

 

[C T]

In the 12 Nidanas, desire/craving (skt. Tanha) comes before clinging/attachment (skt. Upadana)

 

Upadana > Bhava (becoming) > Jati, the last nidana (which is sometimes described as beings bound to ignorance at birth, and leaving the world while in a state of bewilderment and relentless confusion at death). 

 

Confusion and bewilderment is the volitional force that eventually ripens to create the next link, which is Avijja/Avidya (Ignorance), which is the first link. It is placed there because it is the single factor responsible for the perpetuation of all the other links, until such time one of the links weaken and breaks off. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by C T