Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[Limahong]

7 minutes ago, C T said:

Thanks.

 

Hi C T,

 

Thanks too for your invitation. But presently you have already a great thread.

 

I do not wish to come across as being rude but...

 

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[C T]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I dont see how the concept of sin relates to the forgiveness discussion.

 

Also, forgiveness is not about the other person who has theoretically done some wrong. It is not some bounty that you give to the other person (or emotionally blackmail them with). Forgiveness is your own letting go of the issue that binds you to the karma. It is the active facing of the issue/karma and letting it go.  Or like that quote stated, it is like compassion in (conscious) action.

 

Sin and forgiveness are 2 sides of the same coin, not what you alluded to, that letting go and forgiveness are that instead. 

 

It is true knowledge that unbinds karma. 

 

The Buddha's Teaching is thus: "Please pay attention; take this advice and think it over. If you think it is suitable for you to practise my advice, then try to practise it. You can see the results through your own experience."

 

 

Quote

Man's sorrow is his own making and is not handed down by a family curse or an original sin of a mythical primeval ancestor. Buddhists do not accept the belief that this world is merely a place of trial and testing. This world can be made a place where we can attain the highest perfection. And perfection is synonymous with happiness. To the Buddha, man is not an experiment in life created by somebody which can be done away with when unwanted. If a sin could be forgiven, people might take advantage and commit more and more sins. The Buddhist has no reason to believe that the sinner can escape the consequences by the grace of an external power. If a man thrusts his hand into a furnace, his hand will be burnt, and all the prayer in the world will not remove the scars. The same is with the man who walks into the fires of evil action. The Buddha's approach to the problems of suffering is not imaginary, speculative or metaphysical, but essentially empirical.

[C T]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I dont see how the concept of sin relates to the forgiveness discussion.

 

Also, forgiveness is not about the other person who has theoretically done some wrong. It is not some bounty that you give to the other person (or emotionally blackmail them with). Forgiveness is your own letting go of the issue that binds you to the karma. It is the active facing of the issue/karma and letting it go.  Or like that quote stated, it is like compassion in (conscious) action.

 

But, this is your thread, so I will let it go.  Sorry to hear you will not forgive me for the intrusion.

 

  You're welcome here anytime, with open heart, to post pertinent Buddhist quotes and points related to the OP, and to conduct relevant discussions. Since you did not intrude, there's nothing to forgive. 

[Bud Jetsun]

8 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

CT, I've a question for you.

 

Once, my teacher said that a woman who has been assaulted and raped, needs to forgive, not only the rapist, but also needs to forgive herself. To which he added that that sounded strange because of course, the woman is innocent of what happened to her/ not guilty of being raped.

 

the forgiving of the rapist has happened, but the forgiving of myself, is still something that eludes me.

I feel  I should not ' think' about these things ( too much) but your quote reawakened that question in me.

 

some years ago my answer was sort of...err... In another life, I've been a rapist myself, and what happened to me in this life, is just the other side of the coin so to say. That felt and feels right to me, I can have peace with that.

 

but there is more underneath that remark of Sifu, haven't yet found it.

I think I have let go of the underlying trauma, pretty sure of that in fact.

 

 

 

Forgiving is done as a gift to yourself.  

 

Forgiving only works when it's sincere and complete.  When it happens, it severs the self-imposed bonds one was clinging to to in-compassionately inflict self-torture needlessly.  Forgiving is unrelated to condoning someone elses acts or behavior, it's done to lay down the burden of that behavior having any impact in Now. 

Forgiving the trespasser is one side of it, forgiving yourself for having chosen to cling to in-compassionate self-torture of carrying an unforgiven burden is the self-forgiveness side. 

 

If a being decides to conclude suffering, forgiveness of all things that may have been or may be occurring or may yet to occur must happen in real-time of Now with absolutely sincerity.  

 

Some gifts are instantly there own best reward beyond comprehension. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, C T said:

There is no grace in the operation of karma, just as there is no grace in the operation of gravity. The only way to stop the evolution of reactive patterns is to change our relationship with those patterns. ~ Ken McLeod, writing on "Forgiveness is not Buddhist". 

 

In Vajrayana, there is a strong emphasis on purification. In the same article, McLeod wrote:

 

 

Ironic that he would write of tonglen in "Forgiveness is not Buddhist."

 

"In this practice, we imagine taking in the pain, illness, negativity, confusion, and ignorance of others, freeing them from those afflictions, and then sending to them the joy, health, goodness, good fortune, well-being, and understanding that we experience in our own lives, giving it all away so that they may enjoy it, too."

 

What is forgiveness if not tonglen?

 

[doc benway]

"The Buddha's approach to the problems of suffering is not imaginary, speculative or metaphysical, but essentially empirical."

 

I would argue that sincere forgiveness is an empirically effective tool one can use to address the suffering of oneself and others.

All arguments I've seen to the contrary seem more theoretical than practical.

 

[C T]

The core meaning and application of Tonglen practice is to deconstruct rigid mental constructs guided by the focus to release self-cherishing, which, according to the teachings, is the main cause and effect that perpetuates ignorance. 

 

Are there any accounts in the teachings anywhere that explains how buddhas practice forgiveness? I dont think there are any such examples to be found. Since it is not a practice of the buddhas, why is it then suggested by some that it is a good practice for aspiring bodhisattvas? 

 

It may be beneficial as an adjunct concept that could help Western mindsets to develop a softer approach to life, but traditionally there are no teachings on forgiveness in the Buddhist path. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by C T

[Bud Jetsun]

43 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Are there any accounts in the teachings anywhere that explains how buddhas practice forgiveness?

 

 

A Buddha has nothing to forgive, because they great all phenomena with appreciation for the experience of Now as it comes. 

 

This means they accumulated no bonds that needed to be severed through forgiveness.  No matter the circumstantial status, one's true Self remains perfectly at rest in awareness, only the delusions of ego have the capacity to chose to optionally perceive experience as something negative, and then further optionally choose to trade the real of Now to cling to it, or even define themselves by that negative interpretation. 

 

It's been not quite two decades now since my face and head and neck was beaten with brass knuckles into a disfigured mess of flesh and blood and fractured cranium bones and I was left for dead.  I pointlessly carried resentment about it for a couple of years needlessly, which was +10,000x worse than the beating experience itself or the healing process.  Today I recognize it was exactly the priceless gift the universe needed to give me at that time to make a course correction on the path I was traveling, and I'm tremendously grateful for it.  Even one fewer hit wouldn't have been adequate to get the job done, I have only gratitude for their actions and hope they also experience whatever they need to find their own unbreakable peace of liberation. 

 

No matter what circumstances occur Now, forgiveness is both complete and real-time, as all phenomena is unconditionally greeted with appreciation alone.   This is and has always been optionally available to all beings at all times. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited January 24, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[C T]

Forgiveness is predicated on judgement; judgement reinforces dualistic notions - hence, unlike Christianity, there are no exemplary teachings of forgiveness in Buddhism. 

 

Please be clear that im not saying its a bad practice. 

All im saying is that such a practice is nowhere to be found in either the tantric or sutric paths. 

 

 

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, C T said:

Are there any accounts in the teachings anywhere that explains how buddhas practice forgiveness? I dont think there are any such examples to be found.

 

Hi C T,

 

Per my last post, I had been in the silent mode till now. Why? I love kindness enough to share two thoughts thus:

 

(1) 

 

(2) 

 

By embracing (1) and (2), I have found myself in peace - a practical Buddhist, philosophically. Since then I like to share (1) and (2) with like-minded others. 

 

But it is perfectly fine with me when others think otherwise. I respect all differences when the differentials are accorded mutual respect.

 

Now I am going into a longer silent mode per this thread.

 

- LimA

Edited January 24, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Bud Jetsun]

4 hours ago, C T said:

Forgiveness is predicated on judgement; judgement reinforces dualistic notions - hence, unlike Christianity, there are no exemplary teachings of forgiveness in Buddhism. 

 

Please be clear that im not saying its a bad practice. 

All im saying is that such a practice is nowhere to be found in either the tantric or sutric paths. 

 

 

 

Can you list the successful Buddhas created by that method? 1 per 10,000? 100,000? 1 per 1,000,000? 

No disagreement if all experience is greeted with appreciation no bonds form to require the severing of forgiveness, and this would be the most compassionate to self method to maintain in real-time.  

 

Prior to recognizing that state is a choice, indoctrination induced ego construct delusion is free to generate bonds however strong it manifests them through feeding it attention over whatever circumstance may or may not have occurred, is occurring or may yet occur. I respect from an ultimate perspective the only aspects which have not forgiven are self-constructed delusion, and do not disagree it's always possible to mindfully choose to stop sustaining any/all ego delusion.  I also respect that our true Self is not diminished, nor is our true awareness more or less accessible having forgiven or not.  For these reasons it's true there is no intrinsic necessity to forgive to appreciate Now whole-heartedly. 

 

Perhaps due to insufficient awareness of mindfulness, the little selfs stream of thoughts persisted the illusion they were self-generating, as a mechanism to maintain subconscious distraction from the bonds of whatever events/occurrences I was choosing to trade my peace through staying bonded to.  After committing to destroy all unforgiven ties using every technique and/or plant assistance, all previous, current, and past possible occurrences were forgiven as they all offer enriching life experience, and this is the reason awareness is animate in this flesh for it's fleeting moment.  

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[blue eyed snake]

thank you all to responding,

 

especially CT with his first post, even though you ( of course) did not give me an answer, that text flipped me out of a crystallized mindset, thereby the answer could show itself to me.

Steve and Bud , you seem to go to the core of my experiences with your texts,

 

thank you all, for being here and showing ways to me,

I bow to you

 

BES

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, C T said:

The core meaning and application of Tonglen practice is to deconstruct rigid mental constructs guided by the focus to release self-cherishing, which, according to the teachings, is the main cause and effect that perpetuates ignorance. 

 

Are there any accounts in the teachings anywhere that explains how buddhas practice forgiveness? I dont think there are any such examples to be found. Since it is not a practice of the buddhas, why is it then suggested by some that it is a good practice for aspiring bodhisattvas? 

 

It may be beneficial as an adjunct concept that could help Western mindsets to develop a softer approach to life, but traditionally there are no teachings on forgiveness in the Buddhist path. 

 

I can only speak from a Dzogchen perspective as that is what I do.

Each and every time something negative arises where I may feel that I have been wronged or treated unfairly, I leave it as it is.

I stay with the feeling without engaging or rejecting, and it softens and ultimately liberates.

For me, whether scripturally supported or not, there is an element of forgiveness there. 

While the Buddhas and Bodhistavas are beyond judgement, it still arises in me and the practice of forgiving feels right.

Perhaps one day I will transcend the need but for now I embrace the mindset when needed.

[C T]

The view of taking pain as the path to liberation, according to the Bon Buddhist tradition. 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche shares his thoughts on how to directly transform the mind using obstacles as the means. 

 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

I can only speak from a Dzogchen perspective as that is what I do.

Each and every time something negative arises where I may feel that I have been wronged or treated unfairly, I leave it as it is.

I stay with the feeling without engaging or rejecting, and it softens and ultimately liberates.

For me, whether scripturally supported or not, there is an element of forgiveness there. 

While the Buddhas and Bodhistavas are beyond judgement, it still arises in me and the practice of forgiving feels right.

Perhaps one day I will transcend the need but for now I embrace the mindset when needed.

 

It seems the Buddha in the dhammapadda agrees with you...

 

"Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

[C T]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It seems the Buddha in the dhammapadda agrees with you...

 

"Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

 

Thats the social media version, Jeff. 

 

The more authentic translation:

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

 

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbour such thoughts do not still their hatred.

 

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbour such thoughts still their hatred.

 

Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

 

 

This verse directs contemplation on the pacification of mental turmoil, the way to remove the root cause of affliction. Its not about cultivating forgiveness. Its not helpful to try and merge Christian concepts and work them to fit our own whims. 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by C T

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

Thats the social media version, Jeff. 

 

The more authentic translation:

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

 

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbour such thoughts do not still their hatred.

 

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbour such thoughts still their hatred.

 

Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

 

This verse directs contemplation on the pacification of mental turmoil, the way to remove the root cause of affliction. Its not about cultivating forgiveness. Its not helpful to try and merge Christian concepts and work them to fit our own whims. 

 

 

Since you don’t seem to like Thomas Byrom’s version, let’s simply go with yours as to me they are basically the same. Let’s take a practical example...

 

Let’s say that a drunk driver kills my child in an accident. Because of that, I now “hate” the drunk driver. In your terms, I have a mental affliction (the hate) and that affliction causes me to mentally suffer. The verse quoted states that I should drop such thoughts (let go/release) of hatred. Don’t hate that person, but experience non-hatred towards him. Now, at an actual world level, is that not exactly the same thing as “forgiving him”? I hated him and I now no longer hate him, hence forgave him.

 

As I said earlier, two sides of the same coin...  

[silent thunder]

What a wonderful exchange!

 

I'm reminded of an insight that dawned on me one moment while lying on a cliff watching hawks effortlessly glide on the thermals overhead. 

 

In any given moment, I can focus on what I hate, or what I love.  The only shift is me.  In this world... all of the things I despise and all that I love, stem from one source... so the determining factor in love and hate, must lie inside me.  In my thinking, judging, comparing and from my projections of how I think things 'should be'.

 

When the Buddha said, take care what you think... it becomes your reality.  This is as palpable to me now as my own flesh.

 

When I first returned to cultivation years ago now, approaching life to become more in tune and awake and healthy, I was obsessed over what to eat.  I became a very fundamentalist type with what I could and could not eat to become whole and healed.  It worked well and naturally led me to focus as well on what soaps and toothpastes I used, moving away from toxic chemicals to more natural options.  These had a remarkable effect on my overall health and reinforced the next and by far most impacting and powerful realization.

 

That far more important to my health, cultivation and natural beingness, was not what I put in, or on my body, but what I allowed my mind to ruminate on, what I chose to consume mentally and where I allowed my mind to resonate on the whole.  When this realization occured we got rid of broadcast/sat/cable television, my time in stillness increased and soon after my computer broke, I decided to not bother replacing it and took several months off for a total media fast to see how I was affected in not having a steady barrage of the things that I inevitably would not approve of and would hence cause me to inevitably focus on what I despised.

 

The effects were remarkable.   Bouyancy, Clarity, Stillness, Loving Kindness.  Effortlessness.

 

I have since returned obviously to using a computer, though I only have four bookmarks on my son's laptop of sites that I am willing to consume with my thoughts and emotions regularly.  I have relaxed in my fundamentalist food tendencies, though the shifts have remained and some foods and drinks simply no longer have any gravity, though there is no more stressing about what is horrible and what is beneficial. 

 

I have so much energy in my day, in my awareness and in my life.

I cultivate to use that energy on what I love, no longer feeding what I despise.

 

Next step, a very recent one... is in simply giving thanks.  Very neutral thanks, to any phenomena, pleasant and not.

 

The most apt word to describe the effects is... unfolding.

 

LOVE!

 

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Since you don’t seem to like Thomas Byrom’s version, let’s simply go with yours as to me they are basically the same. Let’s take a practical example...

 

Let’s say that a drunk driver kills my child in an accident. Because of that, I now “hate” the drunk driver. In your terms, I have a mental affliction (the hate) and that affliction causes me to mentally suffer. The verse quoted states that I should drop such thoughts (let go/release) of hatred. Don’t hate that person, but experience non-hatred towards him. Now, at an actual world level, is that not exactly the same thing as “forgiving him”? I hated him and I now no longer hate him, hence forgave him.

 

As I said earlier, two sides of the same coin...  

 

I'm sure such an analogy is absolutely valid for you, and no one should attempt to lessen its validity from your perspective. 

 

In Dhamma understanding, the cutting of the root of affliction requires only reflection, attentiveness (mindfulness) and contemplation to remain in place, initially with effort to dispel waverings and later with no effort, where waverings (discursive thoughts) no longer arise. It takes practice to get used to abiding in the calm that follows. Some find it easy and natural, while others may lack confidence in that easeful state. This is understandable because ingrained habitual reactions that tend to override simplicity and resting effortlessly are quite forceful and not easy to cut through. Its not a state that many are familiar with, hence. Those that need support to validate and sustain that intrinsic calm state can then access secondary practices for that purpose, of which forgiveness belongs, and many others that may be equally helpful and valid to suit a particular mindstream. Simply said, relying on these means are helpful but there are also other methods of mind training that bypass the need for such reliance. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I'm sure such an analogy is absolutely valid for you, and no one should attempt to lessen its validity from your perspective. 

 

In Dhamma understanding, the cutting of the root of affliction requires only reflection, attentiveness (mindfulness) and contemplation to remain in place, initially with effort to dispel waverings and later with no effort, where waverings (discursive thoughts) no longer arise. It takes practice to get used to abiding in the calm that follows. Some find it easy and natural, while others may lack confidence in that easeful state. This is understandable because ingrained habitual reactions that tend to override simplicity and resting effortlessly are quite forceful and not easy to cut through. Its not a state that many are familiar with, hence. Those that need support to validate and sustain that intrinsic calm state can then access secondary practices for that purpose, of which forgiveness belongs, and many others that may be equally helpful and valid to suit a particular mindstream. Simply said, relying on these means are helpful but there are also other methods of mind training that bypass the need for such reliance. 

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

Could you explain how that works with my stated example?  Assume your response must mean that in your scenario you never actually forgive the person and just keep hating him?  But the you stay mindful and calm in your hate of him and hence don't act on it?

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

Could you explain how that works with my stated example?  Assume your response must mean that in your scenario you never actually forgive the person and just keep hating him?  But the you stay mindful and calm in your hate of him and hence don't act on it?

 

As mentioned, the right understanding of Dhamma and application of mindful attentiveness and contemplation roots out harmful mental afflictions like hate, jealously and other negative emotions. The Dhammapada verse was very clear on this. 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

As mentioned, the right understanding of Dhamma and application of mindful attentiveness and contemplation roots out harmful mental afflictions like hate, jealously and other negative emotions. The Dhammapada verse was very clear on this. 

 

So no response on how that application works with my stated example?  I ask, because I am really trying understand the buddhist framework here.

 

Are you saying that in the example of having the mental affliction of hating my child's killer, one has the right intellectual view (understanding) and contemplates that until all hate (and other negative emotions) are kind of burned/rooted out? What about all of the positive emotions then?  And if there is such a thing as both positive and negative emotions in the first place, doesn't that imply a lot of mental judgement always going on?

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, C T said:

Its not helpful to try and merge Christian concepts and work them to fit our own whims. 

 

Hi C T,

 

I forgive myself for not being a man of my word. Why? I broke my silence twice. Peace enables silence. But your above statement disturbs my peace - not as a Christian (of which I am not) but a practical Buddhist, philosophically.

 

As TDB is a Taoist forum, can we bring in the Taoist perspective when it comes to forgiveness? I am also a practical Taoist, philosophically.

 

 

- LimA

 

[Bud Jetsun]

3 hours ago, C T said:

This verse directs contemplation on the pacification of mental turmoil, the way to remove the root cause of affliction. Its not about cultivating forgiveness. Its not helpful to try and merge Christian concepts and work them to fit our own whims. 

 

 

 

It's a big step to claim what is or isn't helpful, or what should or shouldn't be merged when from a results oriented perspective a process has demonstrated centuries of failure, or success ratio's so narrow they are difficult to quantify as 1:10,000  1:100,000 1:1,000,000.  

 

How many Buddhas have you personally seen created by clinging to your clubs methods?  

In compassion for all beings liberation, a Buddha would not cling to any rigid dogma, nor fear mixing any processes that lead to successful liberation, no matter where the concept/process may have originated if it works. 

 

The nature of transient is Now, all that one clings to is ultimately only there own pointless choice to suffer what also will remain transient. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

So no response on how that application works with my stated example?  I ask, because I am really trying understand the buddhist framework here.

 

Are you saying that in the example of having the mental affliction of hating my child's killer, one has the right intellectual view (understanding) and contemplates that until all hate (and other negative emotions) are kind of burned/rooted out? What about all of the positive emotions then?  And if there is such a thing as both positive and negative emotions in the first place, doesn't that imply a lot of mental judgement always going on?

 

I would suggest listening to the talk by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche to obtain further clarity wrt the point you raised. He is a highly qualified master who accurately explains how to use 'poison' (negative emotions) as the means to transform the mind, from the perspective of Dzogchen of course. 

 

Here is a more condensed explanation given by Mingyur Rinpoche -